Isaiah Livers - another injury

[Cowology]

I like the guy. I like his game. I wish he wasn't made of glass.

[Kilo]

Avail-ability is an important ability. Maybe the most important.

[Uncle Mxy]

"He's not a shooter" is enough to ruin his value as an NBA player. That's presumably why he's still unsigned, and it's why he wasn't able to consistently remain in the rotation last season of the league's least-winningest team.

He can't really defend all that much either, for what it's worth. Don't conflate steals with good defense; his defensive IQ is not good, by any means.

I wasn't conflating steals with anything. He can generally stay in front of his man, which is more than I can say for most Pistons (though I admit that a piece of formica might play solid D relative to most recent Pistons). The advanced plus/minus for Diallo are solid, though. He's your classic "energy guy off the bench", which we need more of, not less of.

[Crymson]

I wasn't conflating steals with anything. He can generally stay in front of his man, which is more than I can say for most Pistons (though I admit that a piece of formica might play solid D relative to most recent Pistons).

He can stick to his man, yes. At overall defense, he's below average.

The advanced plus/minus for Diallo are solid, though.

Diallo had a good on/off because he was only played in certain situations.

If you're referring to DRPM (which isn't particularly reliable in any case), he was one of the worst in the league at his position.

He's your classic "energy guy off the bench", which we need more of, not less of.

Do you have any examples of such players in the league today?

Non-shooting "energy guys" off the bench don't really exist in the NBA anymore. They'd come into the game and promptly wreck the offense because they can't shoot, which defeats the purpose of fielding them at all. Even elite perimeter defenders don't last in today's NBA if they can't shoot.

[Cowology]

Diallo is an enigma. He absolutely provides efficient individual offense without any plays being ran for him. I'm curious what would happen if we surrounded him with shooters and actually ran plays for the guy.

But a lot of that efficient offense does come off broken plays and it does impact our spacing for the rest of the offense. A large part of our problem has been trying to run him with Hayes and another non-shooter. It was just too much. By replacing Hayes with Morris you are creating a more tenable situation.

I dunno if it's enough, but Diallo has consistently outperformed expectations despite the attention on his shooting ability.

To me, the guy has Pistons DNA. He's got that sorta underdog mentality that would fit in well with '89 or '04.

[bstein14]

Diallo is an enigma. He absolutely provides efficient individual offense without any plays being ran for him. I'm curious what would happen if we surrounded him with shooters and actually ran plays for the guy.

But a lot of that efficient offense does come off broken plays and it does impact our spacing for the rest of the offense. A large part of our problem has been trying to run him with Hayes and another non-shooter. It was just too much. By replacing Hayes with Morris you are creating a more tenable situation.

I dunno if it's enough, but Diallo has consistently outperformed expectations despite the attention on his shooting ability.

To me, the guy has Pistons DNA. He's got that sorta underdog mentality that would fit in well with '89 or '04.

Stewart
Harris
Diallo
Burks
Morris

That would certainly be an interesting bench unit... Diallo is not only great in his FG% for a guard, he also is a great rebounder per minute for a guard/wing.

This unit has three great three point shooters, and Stew can space the floor a bit as well.

Duren - Bojan - Ausar - Ivey - Cade as starters is certainly possible even though we're more likely to start Stew than Ausar IMO.

[Patrick27]

Poor Diallo. He should have been a wide receiver, not a basketball player.

[Crymson]

Diallo is an enigma. He absolutely provides efficient individual offense without any plays being ran for him. I'm curious what would happen if we surrounded him with shooters and actually ran plays for the guy.

He'd still be a spacing liability, and the Pistons would be locked into an offense around a guy who can't create for his teammates and simply must be on the ball. He would also have all of the standard issues for such players on the ball, namely that defenders would simply go under every screen, sag off of him, and generally play him like a non-shooter. All of this would be a boon to the opposition.

But a lot of that efficient offense does come off broken plays and it does impact our spacing for the rest of the offense. A large part of our problem has been trying to run him with Hayes and another non-shooter. It was just too much. By replacing Hayes with Morris you are creating a more tenable situation.

This is the modern NBA. One non-shooter on the perimeter is one too many. Two just made it worse.

I dunno if it's enough, but Diallo has consistently outperformed expectations despite the attention on his shooting ability.

The attention upon his non-ability as a shooter is justified: being unable to shoot as a perimeter player is a crippling weakness that comes at a massive cost to the offense as a whole.

I don't understand what you mean when you say that he's "outperformed expectations." He can't finish plays from the perimeter, can't hit that very efficient shot, can't space the floor, and makes life more difficult on his teammates by presenting defenses with an opponent whom they can essentially ignore in most situations. He might be fine if you're solely looking at points, FG%, and rebounds, but that approach fails to see the forest for the trees.

The organization's expectation was that he become a shooter. Had he done so, he could be a prominent player in the NBA. In the event, he's as bad a shooter as he was when he entered the league five seasons ago. That's too bad for him, and it's the primary reason he's still without a team right now.

To me, the guy has Pistons DNA. He's got that sorta underdog mentality that would fit in well with '89 or '04.

He might have done fine in 1989 or 2004. But this is 2023; it's a very, very different NBA; and he's lacking in the skills necessary to play in it.

I'll ask you the same question I asked that other fellow: can you provide some examples of comparable players in the NBA today?

[Crymson]

Poor Diallo. He should have been a wide receiver, not a basketball player.

He's made $14 million in NBA salary and he isn't going to end his career with brain damage. I think he's done very well.

[theBigLip]

From James Edwards article today:

Moving on, it sounds like Isaiah Livers was primed for a rotation spot until he suffered a recent ankle sprain. Williams said the third-year forward had a “great summer” before the injury and is looking forward to getting him back.

“He’s a two-way guy, smart,” Williams said of Livers. “He can play with the ball a bit better than I thought, watching him play pickup, before we started training camp. He can make a pocket pass, he knows how to play in .5 and he does a number of things well. He’s smart. He talks on defense.

“It’s unfortunate that he had an injury because he was just having a great summer. He was working on his body. We can’t wait to get him back because he’s going to add some value to both sides of the ball.”

[Cowology]

This is the modern NBA. One non-shooter on the perimeter is one too many. Two just made it worse.

If this is how you view the league then your opinion of Diallo is accurate. I think it's a faulty premise and almost sounds hyperbolic. But then you continue to "talk" and I realize it's not.

Based on that I'd say we are too far apart to find common ground. How one interprets the league is going to skew player analysis and we are.... not close. You are also making assumptions about the organizations expectations for him. Thankfully I won't ask you to prove it. Because that would be silly on a message board.

[Crymson]

This is the modern NBA. One non-shooter on the perimeter is one too many. Two just made it worse.

If this is how you view the league then your opinion of Diallo is accurate. I think it's a faulty premise and almost sounds hyperbolic. But then you continue to "talk" and I realize it's not. Based on that I'd say we are too far apart to find common ground. How one interprets the league is going to skew player analysis and we are.... not close.

This is not a matter of how I view the league. This is a matter of how the front offices and coaches that define the league view the league. I note that you didn't put any effort into answering my question, the answer to which underlines the above: hardly anyone in the league fits that description, because the cost of fielding non-shooters on offense is just too great.

The above isn't my opinion: it's a verifiable fact. And it's been a fact for quite some time.

You are also making assumptions about the organizations expectations for him.

I think it's sort of pointless for me to even respond to this, and I think it's likely that you'll ignore what I write in this post as you did the last one (perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised, though?), but I'll do it anyway: the org was as aware as anyone that Diallo would need to shoot in order to be a contributor to the team, and acquiring him was a low-cost gamble upon him doing just that (in which event he could be a very capable scorer). He didn't, he therefore remained a big minus on offense, and thus he wasn't kept. And his combination of total lack of improvement as a shooter, questionable upside, and inability to contribute meaningfully now are almost undoubtedly why he still doesn't have an NBA home more three months after the opening of free agency. There's no demand in the NBA for perimeter players who can't shoot and are unlikely to ever remedy that.

I'm curious why you think that he was let go by the Pistons and hasn't been signed by anyone else.

[Cowology]

Yeah, not going to respond to all that. You were right.

[Crymson]

Yeah, not going to respond to all that. You were right.

Why even bother participating on a discussion board if your intent is to simply dismiss any factual information that doesn't fit your narrative?

Even by the standards of transparently evasive responses like yours, your attempt to outright wipe away facts that are right in front of the faces of everyone who works in, plays in, and watches the NBA is a bizarre strategy.  

But hey, I'll play ball and adjust my statement for brevity for the sake of your discussion convenience:

1) Shooting is too important and being unable to shoot too damaging such that non-shooting perimeter players who aren't superstars playing on ideal rosters are all but extinct in the NBA, and you can easily confirm that for yourself with very little effort.

2) Diallo didn't simply fall out of the rotation of the least-winningest team for no reason and wasn't let go for no reason and isn't yet to be signed by anyone else for no reason, and the reason for all of it is that teams do not want perimeter players who can't shoot, and you can easily confirm that for yourself with very little effort.

Is that short enough?

[breezypeezy]

Injury prone guys year after year, they dont change, they just always have these shoulda, coulda, woulda stories.
Enough with the excuses, the Pistons need people that can deliver and Livers refuses to do it, im so over the empty promise.

[Patrick27]

Poor Diallo. He should have been a wide receiver, not a basketball player.

He's made $14 million in NBA salary and he isn't going to end his career with brain damage. I think he's done very well.

That's a darn good point. Just too bad that raw athleticism didn't translate to a more illustrious career.

[Crymson]

Poor Diallo. He should have been a wide receiver, not a basketball player.

He's made $14 million in NBA salary and he isn't going to end his career with brain damage. I think he's done very well.

That's a darn good point. Just too bad that raw athleticism didn't translate to a more illustrious career.

I think he could've made nine figures in NBA salary if he'd just been able to become a decent shooter. But through some combination of insufficient natural acumen and inadequate effort, he's still as bad as he was when he entered the league five years ago.

[Kalamazoo317]

There's also a difference between being a poor shooter and just a non-shooter. If you have a player on the perimeter who just doesn't shoot at all (like doesn't even attempt) that hurts spacing on a whole other level.