#73 - Pistons-Spurs - 7pm ET

[DetroitSho]

Cade and Sasser have shared the floor together in 27 games this season and when they are on the floor together they have a net rating of +9.3

Cade and Ivey have shared the floor together in 26 games this season and when they were on the floor together they have a net rating of -4.4

Yes, the team started playing better when Ivey went down. Sasser is a better defender, better at taking care of the ball, and plays off the ball better. JB clearly feels that both Ivey and Cade play best with the ball in their hands which is why he staggered them so much this year. They also were our two highest usage players which didn't leave much as far as looks go for the other starters... Sasser is a bit better at just letting the game come to him he's not out there trying to get up a certain amount of points or shots each game.

Ivey did shoot really well on catch and shoot threes this season before getting injured there is no denying that, but that doesn't mean he isn't better suited to be playing more minutes with the ball in his hands versus standing in a corner watching Cade go to work.

Yeah I'm sure those net rating numbers didn't mostly have Sasser as the designated POA defender, with an inconsistent THJ and Tobias and Duren with their heads up their asses. Just from memory, it would be a white hot shooting Beasley and active defenders like Holland and Stewart on the court with him and Cade. All things are not equal in this comparison.

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Clearly a lot of the Cade/Ivey minutes were starting together and earlier in the season we were getting beat early in a lot of games and the bench was coming in and digging us out of early deficits.... for sure not an entirely fair comparison but the numbers do show how well Cade and Sasser have done in the minutes they have played together.... incredibly well. Cade actually said before the trade deadline in the lockerroom... "we don't need anyone we have everyone we need right here" so he clearly was ok riding with the group of guys he had in the locker room even if TL wanted another ball handler in Schroeder. Great leadership it really does seem like Sasser is "his guy" like he's mentioned as well.

Yep, Cade was really in jeopardy of saying "Sass you can barely get the ball across half court against average ball pressure, reminds me of Beno Udrih against Lindsey Hunter in '05 when I was a kid". Of course he's going to say that.

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[NYPiston]

Nobody has suggested that Sasser be the primary ball-handler. Nobody has suggested he be the backup "pg". What I have explicitly tried to communicate ad nauseum is that Ivey is effectively our backup pg. Him and Cade should be staggered so that one of them is on the floor as the primary ball-handler at all-times. Beasley can absorb the larger share of backup "guard" minutes, but then when Sasser comes in the game he'll still be paired with either Cade or Ivey who will be handling the ball. It probably makes more sense to keep Cade/Sasser and Ivey/Beasley pairings going. And of course Ausar/Ron can slide down defensively as needed.

What we really need is a 3rd string PG. A veteran 11th/12th man type that will take limited minutes, but could step into a larger role with injuries etc. We need a CoJo type.

And again, just from a financial perspective can we afford to pay Cade AND Beasley AND Ivey AND Dennis?? That's not a reflection on Schroders worth as a player, but it's hard to justify tying up *that* much money in the guard position. If you wanna prioritize Schroder over Beasley I guess that's a thing, but I still don't think you get to do both. In that instance I'd imagine we are losing Beasley to a higher bidder and still rolling with Sasser as our 4th guard.

It doesn't matter what you should think happen, with all due respect, or what I think should happen or any armchair coach, the reality is that this coach deployed Ivey as a backcourt mate with Cade and Sasser was deployed as the primary PG off the bench so, no, Schroder did not fill the Ivey role, he filled the Sasser role so in this offense the way Bickerstaff deployed it, the Pistons still need a backup PG if Schroder moves on. Sure, Bickerstaff could change his lineups when Ivey returns and stagger the minutes with Cade, and we did see some of that before he went down, but from what we've seen so far he's going to start alongside Cade when he returns and thus leaving an opening at backup PG unless Sasser is that guy like he was this season before the Schroder addition.

I do agree that it's an either or situation with Beasley and Schroder. They can't afford to pay both what their market will likely dictate so the option will likely be, assuming that Beasley is back, Sasser at backup PG or a cheaper option.
This leads me to my next point, it's so odd that with this new apron rule that a team like the Celtics can have around $80 more on their payroll yet the Pistons have to penny pinch with only one max contract on their roster. Of course they choose to go deep into the luxury tax to be able to afford the roster but still...

[Billl]

I like sasser as a shooter and scrappy defender, but he's just not a primary ball handler. Maybe down the line if everyone develops and some combo of ivey, ausar, holland are more of the primary offense initiator in that second unit, then Sasser could have a spot. As it stands, we really need our backup pg to be able to run an offense.

Glad to see at least some understand this.

.

Nobody has suggested that Sasser be the primary ball-handler. Nobody has suggested he be the backup "pg". What I have explicitly tried to communicate ad nauseum is that Ivey is effectively our backup pg. Him and Cade should be staggered so that one of them is on the floor as the primary ball-handler at all-times. Beasley can absorb the larger share of backup "guard" minutes, but then when Sasser comes in the game he'll still be paired with either Cade or Ivey who will be handling the ball. It probably makes more sense to keep Cade/Sasser and Ivey/Beasley pairings going. And of course Ausar/Ron can slide down defensively as needed.

What we really need is a 3rd string PG. A veteran 11th/12th man type that will take limited minutes, but could step into a larger role with injuries etc. We need a CoJo type.

And again, just from a financial perspective can we afford to pay Cade AND Beasley AND Ivey AND Dennis?? That's not a reflection on Schroders worth as a player, but it's hard to justify tying up *that* much money in the guard position. If you wanna prioritize Schroder over Beasley I guess that's a thing, but I still don't think you get to do both. In that instance I'd imagine we are losing Beasley to a higher bidder and still rolling with Sasser as our 4th guard.

You can't count on your starting 2 guard to play all the backup pg minutes. We were doing that out of desperation. What happens if cade or ivey pick up fouls? The other guy has to play the 48 minutes? You need at least 1 of your full time bench player to be able to run an nba offense. The NBA season is LOOOOONG. Guys will miss games. Guys will get tired. Guys will get in foul trouble. You need functional depth to be a competitive NBA team.

[Cowology]

Nobody has suggested that Sasser be the primary ball-handler. Nobody has suggested he be the backup "pg". What I have explicitly tried to communicate ad nauseum is that Ivey is effectively our backup pg. Him and Cade should be staggered so that one of them is on the floor as the primary ball-handler at all-times. Beasley can absorb the larger share of backup "guard" minutes, but then when Sasser comes in the game he'll still be paired with either Cade or Ivey who will be handling the ball. It probably makes more sense to keep Cade/Sasser and Ivey/Beasley pairings going. And of course Ausar/Ron can slide down defensively as needed.

What we really need is a 3rd string PG. A veteran 11th/12th man type that will take limited minutes, but could step into a larger role with injuries etc. We need a CoJo type.

And again, just from a financial perspective can we afford to pay Cade AND Beasley AND Ivey AND Dennis?? That's not a reflection on Schroders worth as a player, but it's hard to justify tying up *that* much money in the guard position. If you wanna prioritize Schroder over Beasley I guess that's a thing, but I still don't think you get to do both. In that instance I'd imagine we are losing Beasley to a higher bidder and still rolling with Sasser as our 4th guard.

It doesn't matter what you should think happen, with all due respect, or what I think should happen or any armchair coach, the reality is that this coach deployed Ivey as a backcourt mate with Cade and Sasser was deployed as the primary PG off the bench so, no, Schroder did not fill the Ivey role, he filled the Sasser role so in this offense the way Bickerstaff deployed it, the Pistons still need a backup PG if Schroder moves on. Sure, Bickerstaff could change his lineups when Ivey returns and stagger the minutes with Cade, and we did see some of that before he went down, but from what we've seen so far he's going to start alongside Cade when he returns and thus leaving an opening at backup PG unless Sasser is that guy like he was this season before the Schroder addition.

I do agree that it's an either or situation with Beasley and Schroder. They can't afford to pay both what their market will likely dictate so the option will likely be, assuming that Beasley is back, Sasser at backup PG or a cheaper option.
This leads me to my next point, it's so odd that with this new apron rule that a team like the Celtics can have around $80 more on their payroll yet the Pistons have to penny pinch with only one max contract on their roster. Of course they choose to go deep into the luxury tax to be able to afford the roster but still...

Of course Ivey will start. And I'm going to save receipts. I will guarantee right now that Scroder will be gone next year, Cade/Ivey will start but one will almost always be on the floor. Book it. I'll see you back here next here.

[DetroitSho]

Nobody has suggested that Sasser be the primary ball-handler. Nobody has suggested he be the backup "pg". What I have explicitly tried to communicate ad nauseum is that Ivey is effectively our backup pg. Him and Cade should be staggered so that one of them is on the floor as the primary ball-handler at all-times. Beasley can absorb the larger share of backup "guard" minutes, but then when Sasser comes in the game he'll still be paired with either Cade or Ivey who will be handling the ball. It probably makes more sense to keep Cade/Sasser and Ivey/Beasley pairings going. And of course Ausar/Ron can slide down defensively as needed.

What we really need is a 3rd string PG. A veteran 11th/12th man type that will take limited minutes, but could step into a larger role with injuries etc. We need a CoJo type.

And again, just from a financial perspective can we afford to pay Cade AND Beasley AND Ivey AND Dennis?? That's not a reflection on Schroders worth as a player, but it's hard to justify tying up *that* much money in the guard position. If you wanna prioritize Schroder over Beasley I guess that's a thing, but I still don't think you get to do both. In that instance I'd imagine we are losing Beasley to a higher bidder and still rolling with Sasser as our 4th guard.

It doesn't matter what you should think happen, with all due respect, or what I think should happen or any armchair coach, the reality is that this coach deployed Ivey as a backcourt mate with Cade and Sasser was deployed as the primary PG off the bench so, no, Schroder did not fill the Ivey role, he filled the Sasser role so in this offense the way Bickerstaff deployed it, the Pistons still need a backup PG if Schroder moves on. Sure, Bickerstaff could change his lineups when Ivey returns and stagger the minutes with Cade, and we did see some of that before he went down, but from what we've seen so far he's going to start alongside Cade when he returns and thus leaving an opening at backup PG unless Sasser is that guy like he was this season before the Schroder addition.

I do agree that it's an either or situation with Beasley and Schroder. They can't afford to pay both what their market will likely dictate so the option will likely be, assuming that Beasley is back, Sasser at backup PG or a cheaper option.
This leads me to my next point, it's so odd that with this new apron rule that a team like the Celtics can have around $80 more on their payroll yet the Pistons have to penny pinch with only one max contract on their roster. Of course they choose to go deep into the luxury tax to be able to afford the roster but still...

Before the game Ivey got hurt, the Pistons had played 33 games, Sasser had played in 21 of them. Not sure how your primary backup point guard only plays in 2/3's of games without having sustained an injury.

If we you distribute minutes on a traditional starter/backup type scale, can we agree 32 minutes for a starter and 16 minutes acceptable as a baseline to use? If so, we can dig deeper. Sasser had played more than 16 minutes (a normal primary backup's portion) in only 9 of 33 games before Ivey's injury. In comparison, Schroeder has played 16 or minutes every game he's been here except the first two, which were both drubbings of Charlotte and Chicago where we emptied the bench. He played 15 in both.

Ivey and Cade had played something like 95% of the possible minutes before Ivey went down, through staggering their minutes. How anyone is claiming Sasser was being used as any more than a spot duty/spark plug/change of pace guy is beyond me. He had multiple DNPs and multiple games playing only 1 minute, prior to Ivey getting hurt. What are we talking about here?

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[MortSahlfan]

Beasley and Dennis' families are close.. Maybe Beasley tells them he'll take a tiny bit less if they re-sign Dennis.. I'd love to keep them both. I really like the play and the chemistry.

[Cowology]

Beasley and Dennis' families are close.. Maybe Beasley tells them he'll take a tiny bit less if they re-sign Dennis.. I'd love to keep them both. I really like the play and the chemistry.

Hey, IF it worked out financially and didn't impact our ability to address the 4 spot, I'd be thrilled. I think Dennis was a fantastic pickup AFTER Ivey went down.

I also think it's very telling we went as long as we did with no real backup pg. It was a glaring deficiency coming into the season and was widely talked about. I (and a few others) wanted Tyus badly. It made sense and there were options out there.

We opted NOT to address it and instead put the ball in Cade & Iveys' hands. It wasn't until we lost Ivey and tried to force Sasser into a PG role that we finally relented and picked up another ball-handler (with no long term commitment!) These were choices made by the organization.

Honestly, it's kinda interesting to see how differently people are able to view the same events. At the end of the day we all want to see the Pistons win though, so all good.

[bstein14]

Nobody has suggested that Sasser be the primary ball-handler. Nobody has suggested he be the backup "pg". What I have explicitly tried to communicate ad nauseum is that Ivey is effectively our backup pg. Him and Cade should be staggered so that one of them is on the floor as the primary ball-handler at all-times. Beasley can absorb the larger share of backup "guard" minutes, but then when Sasser comes in the game he'll still be paired with either Cade or Ivey who will be handling the ball. It probably makes more sense to keep Cade/Sasser and Ivey/Beasley pairings going. And of course Ausar/Ron can slide down defensively as needed.

What we really need is a 3rd string PG. A veteran 11th/12th man type that will take limited minutes, but could step into a larger role with injuries etc. We need a CoJo type.

And again, just from a financial perspective can we afford to pay Cade AND Beasley AND Ivey AND Dennis?? That's not a reflection on Schroders worth as a player, but it's hard to justify tying up *that* much money in the guard position. If you wanna prioritize Schroder over Beasley I guess that's a thing, but I still don't think you get to do both. In that instance I'd imagine we are losing Beasley to a higher bidder and still rolling with Sasser as our 4th guard.

It doesn't matter what you should think happen, with all due respect, or what I think should happen or any armchair coach, the reality is that this coach deployed Ivey as a backcourt mate with Cade and Sasser was deployed as the primary PG off the bench so, no, Schroder did not fill the Ivey role, he filled the Sasser role so in this offense the way Bickerstaff deployed it, the Pistons still need a backup PG if Schroder moves on. Sure, Bickerstaff could change his lineups when Ivey returns and stagger the minutes with Cade, and we did see some of that before he went down, but from what we've seen so far he's going to start alongside Cade when he returns and thus leaving an opening at backup PG unless Sasser is that guy like he was this season before the Schroder addition.

I do agree that it's an either or situation with Beasley and Schroder. They can't afford to pay both what their market will likely dictate so the option will likely be, assuming that Beasley is back, Sasser at backup PG or a cheaper option.
This leads me to my next point, it's so odd that with this new apron rule that a team like the Celtics can have around $80 more on their payroll yet the Pistons have to penny pinch with only one max contract on their roster. Of course they choose to go deep into the luxury tax to be able to afford the roster but still...

I think there's a decent chance that Schroeder gets less next year than what Beasley got with us this year. He's bounced around the league so much for a reason. Teams don't constantly get rid of a player they put a high value on.

[tmorgan]

Schroder’s a JAG point guard. Definitely worthy of the league, but clearly below average as a starter and slightly above average as a backup.

It wouldn’t be a bad idea to keep him for depth, but he has to be paid like he’s depth. The vet min probably isn’t realistic, he’ll have better offers than that. We do have impending payroll issues, but not so much next year, so perhaps he takes a Beasley-ish 1/6 deal to stick around? If he wants multiple years, it’ll need to be for less annual salary. 2/10, 3/13, stuff like that, so he’s moveable when he needs to go. He also needs to realize we can’t guarantee him any kind of specific minutes or guarantee him the backup PG spot. That alone might be enough for him to want to move on, which is fine.

I will say thst if we DO keep him, especially at an amount larger than those I listed, that’s a clear sign we’re intending to move on from one of Sasser or Ivey. With the current CBA, you just can’t afford for your deeper bench guys to make much money. You pay eight guys what they’re worth, have a cheap rookie or two, and vet min the rest. We haven’t been doing this because we have so many rookie contracts in our rotation, but that’s going to change very soon.

[kierkegaard]

Sasser has no problems as a ball handler, really. He can do all that.

Problem is, he gets in there and focuses more on his inside-out dribble, hesi-cross, and step-back than his teammates. On his good days (the last two games are a great example of ‘good days’), he’s Cam Thomas with better defense, which is a really good player. But when Cam Thomas or Marcus Sasser bring the ball up the floor, odds are you’re not really running offense that possession, it’s just 90’s style iso-ball.

If this is who he is, move him along. Hopefully for value, because he does have skills. But it’s not the basketball Detroit wants to play or I want to see.

Sasser has a lot of trouble playing with the ball in his hands, even with the responsibility of making the team play. He's not a point guard; he's a SG trapped in a point guard's body. That's why his teammates are trying to explain to you that he needs one of Ivey or Cade by his side. That's actually why Dennis was signed, because he's a point guard who can organize the team, which Sasser isn't.

What I'd like to add to this discussion is that Sasser seems not to have athleticism and/or straight ahead speed to be an effective PG. If the lane is open, for example, the PG has to have an ability to get into it in order to force the defense to scramble, even if he can't make it to the rim. Schroeder for example often gets into and through the lane even if he ends up just dribbling under the basket to the other side of the court. In these situations the defense at least is forced to scramble a little because the ball, still in Schroeder's hands, has at least changed locations on the court.

Sasser by contrast can't really shake his own defender. And if there is a natural lane, 2 steps in and it quickly closes down hard, leaving Sasser in no man's land effectively playing 1 on 5 while his teammates watch. At this point the only question is the number of double stop, triple start moves Sasser will roll out before launching a shot to beat the 24 second buzzer.

This is also why Sasser is pretty effective playing along side Cade. As an effective shooter he forces the defense to be honest. And with the 24 second clock running down, he can herk-n-jerk his way into a reasonable shot.

(Note: Cory Joseph wasn't able to get past defenders and/or exploit open lanes either. But as a 2nd/3rd string PG he made up for that with impressive strength and decent court awareness ... plus he could pound the ball into the floor like no other.)

[Kalamazoo317]

I hope we pony up and try to keep this full team (including Schroeder) together next year.

I don’t think we’ll be trying to “upgrade” the 4 next season. We have a $25 million vet starter there who’s an essential part of the team and if Ausar and Holland have any chance of playing together longterm, one is probably next up at the 4.

[tmorgan]

I hope we pony up and try to keep this full team (including Schroeder) together next year.

I don’t think we’ll be trying to “upgrade” the 4 next season. We have a $25 million vet starter there who’s an essential part of the team and if Ausar and Holland have any chance of playing together longterm, one is probably next up at the 4.

Unless Holland weirdly hulks out, and quickly, he has no shot of ever playing the 4. Ausar is a lot stronger and can play there right now, but not as a starter — you can’t have both your ‘bigs’ as non-shooters, it makes covering the P&R way too easy, as there’s no chance for a pop at all. We get a lot of offense from Cade’s P&R lobs to Duren and others, and that would mess it all up.

So no, I don’t see either of those two as a viable 4 offensively. Which also means we have 4 potential starters at three positions in Cade, Ivey, Ausar and Holland. It’s not that big of a thing immediately, as gifting Holland a starting spot is premature. But if he develops the way I hope he will, it will be an issue in another year. Again, that’s not a bad problem to have, but it is one that’ll eventually need a solution. And with Holland as Langdon’s first draftee, I think he has the inside lane on a future starting spot, likely at Ivey’s expense. *If* he gets his outside shooting in order.

[bstein14]

Pick and Roll Ball Handler

Points Per Possesion (the team scores when said player is handling the ball in a pick and roll)
Best in the league with 2+ P&Rs per game
Haliburton 1.11
SGA 1.10
----------
Pistons Guards
Marcus Sasser 1.02
Cade 0.92
Ivey 0.83

In all fairness, whenever Cade is in the pick and roll there's a ton of focus on him.

One thing Killian fan boys always talked about here was what a good passer and ball handler Killian Hayes was but then I'd always bring up the fact he was horrible as a pick and roll ball handler so who cares if you make cool/nice passes if you can't efficiently put the ball in the basket as a team when you're running a pick and roll.

You'd think since Ivey is an elite athlete the Pistons would be better in transition with the ball in his hands but...
Ivey 0.97 PPP with the ball in his hands in transition
Sasser 1.04
Cade 0.94

Isolation scoring
Sasser 1.09 PPP
Cade 0.88
Ivey 0.63 (he's Killian Hayes bad in ISO this season but just 1.4 times a game)

Coming of a hand off...
Sasser 1.37
Ivey 1.09
Cade 1.00

[tmorgan]

Sasser can score, no doubt at all

[Kalamazoo317]

I hope we pony up and try to keep this full team (including Schroeder) together next year.

I don’t think we’ll be trying to “upgrade” the 4 next season. We have a $25 million vet starter there who’s an essential part of the team and if Ausar and Holland have any chance of playing together longterm, one is probably next up at the 4.

Unless Holland weirdly hulks out, and quickly, he has no shot of ever playing the 4. Ausar is a lot stronger and can play there right now, but not as a starter — you can’t have both your ‘bigs’ as non-shooters, it makes covering the P&R way too easy, as there’s no chance for a pop at all. We get a lot of offense from Cade’s P&R lobs to Duren and others, and that would mess it all up.

So no, I don’t see either of those two as a viable 4 offensively. Which also means we have 4 potential starters at three positions in Cade, Ivey, Ausar and Holland. It’s not that big of a thing immediately, as gifting Holland a starting spot is premature. But if he develops the way I hope he will, it will be an issue in another year. Again, that’s not a bad problem to have, but it is one that’ll eventually need a solution. And with Holland as Langdon’s first draftee, I think he has the inside lane on a future starting spot, likely at Ivey’s expense. *If* he gets his outside shooting in order.

Holland is really young. I expect he'll bulk up a bit and I expect his shot will come on too (he has great form). The good news on the 4 is it's locked in for next season and we can also reasonably expect Tobias to want to retire a Piston at this point, so pretty likely he reups after next season for a few more years.

[BadMofoPimp]

I think the team should resign both Bease and Schroeder and run it back one more year. Give Dennis a one year deal at a solid deal he likes, Bease at a long term MLE then see how the young guys develop. That way, can have max cash in 2026 to make roster updates. At least with a glut of guards, players can rest more often (Cade) and miss games due to injury.

[Kalamazoo317]

Honestly, I think keeping Shroeder should be more of a priority than keeping THJ. Ivey and Beasley can provide what THJ does. We need a veteran backup PG we can rely on to organize the offense in the halfcourt when Cade is sitting and Shroeder fits the bill while also being pesky on defense.

[bstein14]

Pistons already have 10 players under contract for next season... THJ, Beasley, Schroeder and Paul Reed are FAs and we have a 2nd round pick.

Would be pretty insane if we just kept 14 of the same guys from this season and drafted a 2nd rounder and called it an offseason. Even if TL likes what he has you have to think 2 or 3 guys will be changes or "upgrades" as we try to take another step next season.... I'm not saying everyone hasn't earned a spot again next year, but it just feels like he's had time to evaluate and he'll make a move to improve somewhere.