There are no "True Point Guards"

epheisey · Post #1 » by **epheisey** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:46 am

Is it just me or is there a huge misconception when it comes to "true pgs"? I see people bashing Stuckey and Knight for not being "true pgs" but there aren't many of those in the NBA. Even Chauncey can't be labeled a "true pg". I would even venture to argue that right now, Stuckey is a better "point guard" than Knight, simply because he can handle the ball and run the offense better. But the Pistons seem to be looking at a long term commitment to a team led by something other than a "true pg" and as much as I'd love to have that pass first, floor general, I'm ok with what we have. Anybody feel the same?

kamal2_espn · Post #2 » by **kamal2_espn** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:21 pm

Rajon Rondo? Chris Paul? Deron Williams? Steve Nash? Just because they can score doesn't mean they're not true point guards.

DetroitDon15 · Post #3 » by **DetroitDon15** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:45 pm

The game is different today. These kids growing up want to be scorers in addition to passers. Alot of the time in college, these kids are playing the 2 spot and being forced to slide to the 1 because of their size. They need to develop their PG skills. Too many kids are playing Jason Terry style PG now. Days of the pass first guys like Stockton, Nash, and the like are over.

JD43320 · Post #4 » by **JD43320** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:30 pm

The era of "true PG's" may be over but that doesn't make me feel any better about our PG's. Regardless of what era you're in you need 5 basic things from your floor general.

1. Consistency
2. Vision
3. Decision making
4. Timing
5. Accuracy

1. Neither Stuckey nor Knight are consistent (not only from game to game but quarter to quarter).
2. Stuckey has tunnel vision (though it's not as narrow as it has been in the past) and Knight's is okay.
3. LMFAO
4. Both are decent in this area but...
5. They can barely make a post entry pass.

Stuckey is about as good as he is going to get in all these areas. Knight doesn't really look like a floor general but he has time to improve but it's going to take a few years.

Brapman · Post #5 » by **Brapman** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:52 pm

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... -westbrook

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... don-knight

If you didn't know these guys names, histories or reputations - which one would you want for your team just going by statistics? Westbrook is a top young guard in this game by consensus agreement. He shoots 17, 18 and 19 times per game over the past three seasons. Knight shoots 11 to 12 times per game, and he's a much better shooter, especially from distance. Rebounds, similar - slight edge to Westbrook. Westbrook better with assist and turnovers, but that isn't all that apparent from his first season - and he has always had Durant to pass to.

Westbrook isn't a true point guard by any expert's standard. In fact, he's more World B. Free than point guard much of the time.

I'm not saying Knight is as good as Westbrook - he's not at this point in his career. But he's just turned 21 years old, and Westbrook just turned 24. Give Brandon three more seasons and I'll bet people start to consider him as a guy who is in Westbrook's class as a player - less athletic for sure, since Westbrook is one of the mega-athletes in this league, and Brandon is merely a great athlete. But a way way way better shooter than Westbrook. And perhaps, by then, a better floor general as well.

I like it that he seems to have a conscience, and that he's trying so hard to play the PG position in a way where he makes sure to get his teammates going - even though the results for that aren't there yet.

kamal2_espn · Post #6 » by **kamal2_espn** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:36 pm

JD43320 wrote:The era of "true PG's" may be over but that doesn't make me feel any better about our PG's. Regardless of what era you're in you need 5 basic things from your floor general.

1. Consistency
2. Vision
3. Decision making
4. Timing
5. Accuracy

1. Neither Stuckey nor Knight are consistent (not only from game to game but quarter to quarter).
2. Stuckey has tunnel vision (though it's not as narrow as it has been in the past) and Knight's is okay.
3. LMFAO
4. Both are decent in this area but...
5. They can barely make a post entry pass.

Stuckey is about as good as he is going to get in all these areas. Knight doesn't really look like a floor general but he has time to improve but it's going to take a few years.

Stuckey has to be the worst passing guard in the league. I'm not talking about assists rate or any of that stuff. I'm talking about getting the ball to his teammates WITHOUT the ball being deflected or stolen. I swear most of his passes get tipped, stolen, or sail out of bounds.

And I like your 5 basic things a point guard should have. People look at assists per game and assume somebody's a good point guard. Wrong. Chauncey was never a big apg guy but he was one of the best floor generals I've seen in a long time based on his decision making. For one, he recognized the mismatches. All the time. And he worked it. Our guards only recognize when they have a mismatch.

And, man, they can't make a decent entry pass to save their life. Monroe has some dude posted, but the ball has to be reversed to the weak side because Stuckey or Knight can't get it to him. Talk about frustrating.

Now, you can be successful without a good point guard. Tony Parker and Westbrook come to mind. But they are masters at what they do. Parker is probably the best finishing point guard I've ever seen and Westbrook is a top notch scorer. For us to succeed, Knight would have to put 18-22 ppg efficiently and get his assists when teams start to double in order to stop him. And Stuckey should be shipped out.

Collymore · Post #7 » by **Collymore** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:23 pm

Knight is second or third tier talent, the chances of him reaching Westbrook level is the same as Daye reaching Dirk level.

ComboGuardCity · Post #8 » by **ComboGuardCity** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:27 pm

Collymore wrote:Knight is second or third tier talent, the chances of him reaching Westbrook level is the same as Daye reaching Dirk level.

That's crazy talk a quarter into his second year.

ParrottK · Post #9 » by **ParrottK** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:46 pm

ComboGuardCity wrote:
Collymore wrote:Knight is second or third tier talent, the chances of him reaching Westbrook level is the same as Daye reaching Dirk level.

That's crazy talk a quarter into his second year.

Maybe a little hyperbolic, but that's hardly "crazy talk." Knight is no where near Westbrook level, and it sure doesn't look like he's ever going to reach Westbrook level. The only thing Knight does at an elite level right now is hit 3's. At everything else he's middling at best.

JD43320 · Post #10 » by **JD43320** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:26 pm

Knight is nowhere near the athlete Westbrook is and has half the handles. It's a terrible joke to compare the two.

ComboGuardCity · Post #11 » by **ComboGuardCity** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:35 pm

JD43320 wrote:Knight is nowhere near the athlete Westbrook is and has half the handles. It's a terrible joke to compare the two.

I'm not saying he'll ever be Westbrook, because he won't be. But I think he still has the potential to be a Tier 1 PG in the mold of Tony Parker, his ceiling. The kid works hard and I think he'll get as close to his ceiling as possible.

RTM · Post #12 » by **RTM** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:34 pm

Knight is more of a Jason Terry than Tony Parker.

Terry used to run the point in ATL, and still can (did so recently for Boston in Rondo's absence), but he's a guy that's best when he's looking for his shot. Maybe Knight is too. And with the players we have (Greg, Prince, Singler and Stuckey can all pass well), he has the opportunity to do that.

Hopefully his instincts improve, but even if they don't, he can still be an extremely useful starter here. He doesn't need to be an elite assists guy to be a good starting PG.

But he needs to work on taking care of the ball #1.

Part-time Lover · Post #13 » by **Part-time Lover** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:56 am

If Knight turns out to be like Tony Parker in his game (driving in the lane, ok ball distribution, scoring PG except Knight has a 3 point shot), would it be good for the Pistons in the long run?

If Monroe, Drummond and Knight all pan out, could they make noise in the East even if Knight turns out more like Parker in his game than CP3? This is Monroe with a 15 foot jumper, nice playmaking in the high post, great low post moves, Drummond staying inside for open dunks, developing a solid post game and protecting the paint and Knight having Parker's game. Could they have good chemistry together?

Knight is a scoring guard more than a pure point guard but then again, IMO I don't think this team needs to have a pure PG on this team. I think Knight is fine as he is.

Brapman · Post #14 » by **Brapman** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:24 pm

Part-time Lover wrote:If Knight turns out to be like Tony Parker in his game (driving in the lane, ok ball distribution, scoring PG except Knight has a 3 point shot), would it be good for the Pistons in the long run?

If Monroe, Drummond and Knight all pan out, could they make noise in the East even if Knight turns out more like Parker in his game than CP3? This is Monroe with a 15 foot jumper, nice playmaking in the high post, great low post moves, Drummond staying inside for open dunks, developing a solid post game and protecting the paint and Knight having Parker's game. Could they have good chemistry together?

Knight is a scoring guard more than a pure point guard but then again, IMO I don't think this team needs to have a pure PG on this team. I think Knight is fine as he is.

I pretty much agree with your post. IMO, the Pistons are heading toward building an unselfish team - but a very talented one. Drummond could become one of the elite centers in the league. In 5 seasons, I expect he'll be the top big man in the league. Monroe has great offensive talent, and he's smart -- I expect he'll become a smart defender, and teamed with Monroe, a dominant duo at C/PF. I expect Knight to become one of the best PG's in the league. Knight as a scoring point guard is probably what our team needs.

If you've got the dominant big man in the league, and two other all-star caliber players at PG and SG, you have a team that will compete for championships.

These 3 core guys will be surrounded with complimentary players - a lot of guys who can really shoot 3 pt shots (Singler and English?), cutters with all around offensive games (Middleton?), probably a defensive stopper or two. But mainly long range shooters - guys who don't need the ball in their hands a lot.

princeofpalace · Post #15 » by **princeofpalace** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:30 pm

Of players currently in the league, Knight reminds me most of Jrue Holiday.

Brandon Knight in 11-12
13 points/4 asssits/ 3 boards/3 TO's on 41.5% FG, 38%3pt, 75% FT in 32 minutes per game

Brandon Knight in 12-13
15 points/5 assists/4 boards on/3TO's 42% FG, 43%3pt, 77%FT in 32 minutes per game

Knight has pretty much improved in every facet of the game except on TO's. There is no reason to think he cant continue to improve.

epheisey · Post #16 » by **epheisey** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:14 pm

Brapman wrote:
Part-time Lover wrote:If Knight turns out to be like Tony Parker in his game (driving in the lane, ok ball distribution, scoring PG except Knight has a 3 point shot), would it be good for the Pistons in the long run?

If Monroe, Drummond and Knight all pan out, could they make noise in the East even if Knight turns out more like Parker in his game than CP3? This is Monroe with a 15 foot jumper, nice playmaking in the high post, great low post moves, Drummond staying inside for open dunks, developing a solid post game and protecting the paint and Knight having Parker's game. Could they have good chemistry together?

Knight is a scoring guard more than a pure point guard but then again, IMO I don't think this team needs to have a pure PG on this team. I think Knight is fine as he is.

I pretty much agree with your post. IMO, the Pistons are heading toward building an unselfish team - but a very talented one. Drummond could become one of the elite centers in the league. In 5 seasons, I expect he'll be the top big man in the league. Monroe has great offensive talent, and he's smart -- I expect he'll become a smart defender, and teamed with Monroe, a dominant duo at C/PF. I expect Knight to become one of the best PG's in the league. Knight as a scoring point guard is probably what our team needs.

If you've got the dominant big man in the league, and two other all-star caliber players at PG and SG, you have a team that will compete for championships.

These 3 core guys will be surrounded with complimentary players - a lot of guys who can really shoot 3 pt shots (Singler and English?), cutters with all around offensive games (Middleton?), probably a defensive stopper or two. But mainly long range shooters - guys who don't need the ball in their hands a lot.

I think you have very lofty hopes...I see Knight being a second tier pg, he might have a couple good years here and there where he gets consideration as an elite pg, but he won't be a top 5-7 pg. Drummond could turn into a great big man, but the best in the NBA is a pipe dream...he could very well be a top 5 center but I don't expect him to be THE center. Monroe, on the other hand could easily become the most rounded PF in the game, I still like the Duncan comparison, assuming he continues to develop a shot

Han Solo · Post #17 » by **Han Solo** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:50 am

Navas · Post #18 » by **Navas** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:30 am

I'm curious as to the age of some of the posters on here comparing Knight to Westbrook along with the fact that there's a notion that PGs were always pass first kind of guys. Yeesh.

As for this whole true PG thing, it's a frivolous myth. Good to great PGs have been achieving very high point totals for years. West, Oscar, Maravich, Zeke. Instead people try to categorize PGs for some silly reason.

ballhawk1 · Post #19 » by **ballhawk1** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:16 pm

Part-time Lover wrote:If Knight turns out to be like Tony Parker in his game (driving in the lane, ok ball distribution, scoring PG except Knight has a 3 point shot), would it be good for the Pistons in the long run?

If Monroe, Drummond and Knight all pan out, could they make noise in the East even if Knight turns out more like Parker in his game than CP3? This is Monroe with a 15 foot jumper, nice playmaking in the high post, great low post moves, Drummond staying inside for open dunks, developing a solid post game and protecting the paint and Knight having Parker's game. Could they have good chemistry together?

Knight is a scoring guard more than a pure point guard but then again, IMO I don't think this team needs to have a pure PG on this team. I think Knight is fine as he is.

You would think that Monroe is getting used to playing athletic big-man when he is going against the ultra-athletic Drummond and to a lesser extent Maxiell. Monroe needs to work on a 15-footer, similar to Maxiell's jumper, to keep the defenses guessing otherwise he's going to continue to get harassed by defenders.

Westbrook is extremely athletic and is as strong as they come. I can see some similarities between Westbrook and Knight in that they both over-dribble and sometimes try to make an impact and force the issue with an isolation game. On the other hand, Knight has terrific shooting form and is great at catch and shoot situations. I also like how he is learning from his mistakes which tells me that he is smart player.

MrBigShot · Post #20 » by **MrBigShot** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:51 pm

I think best case scenario...

Moose=Zach Randolph with better passing ability.

Knight=A mix of Parker and Payton. Top 7-10 PG, with maybe a year or two of being brought up in the top 5 discussion after guys like CP3 and Deron are no longer playing at a high level.

Drummond-I have no idea. Too hard to say...he has all the physical tools. Sky is the limit for him, it will depend on how hard he works, and who he works what.

The Tim Duncan comparison just shouldn't be brought up...Moose lacks his consistency, defense and he is just play less athletic/skilled than Timmy, even when he was a rookie.