Understanding the 4th quarter collapse.

[Q00]

That 2 shots is just an average though. That doesn't mean he's only gotten 2 shots in every game. Its more like he's been given opportunities some games, and didn't deliver (either missing point blank shots or fumbling it away) to the point that it caused Cheeks to lose trust in him, and then go away from him completely in the games following. So its not like he hasn't been given opportunities in 4th quarters this year. I just don't think he delivered enough to earn more in Cheeks' mind. Compared to guys like Jennings/Stuckey/Smith who have all had defining moments this season where they won games for us in the 4th with big shots. So I think its just a matter of them having earned Cheeks trust more than Monroe, because they delivered when given opportunities and he hasn't yet, and that's why they are now getting more shots and more plays called for them.

Which goes back to my original point in that if he had delivered inside for us when given chances earlier in the year, the other guys wouldn't have to be trying to carry us now.

Should he go back to Monroe and give him another chance to prove he can get it done in the 4th? The way they are playing now, sure why not, if no one else can get it done either. But based on Monroe's career, he's never been a great crunch time scorer, so I wouldn't count on him suddenly becoming clutch.

On the other point, you can be a team guy and also be a leader at the same time. Demanding the ball when no one else can score is being a leader and a team guy. Its not like everyone else is scoring and I'm saying he should demand the ball because he just wants to get in on the action. Great big men/leaders take it upon the themselves when no one else can score to get in that low post and demand the ball. Rasheed did it all the time and he was certainly a team player. Lebron and Kobe are team players too. They are just great leaders as well.

If Monroe were capable of delivering on cue in crunch time, I think he would take lead and demand the ball too. I don't think he's confident enough in his game to do that like Rasheed used to, and that's why he doesn't call for it.

I can count on 2 hands the amount of times hes been our best player on the floor & has been ignored in the 4th.

Really no comparison between being a leader & demanding the ball. Rasheed rarely did that, the major knock on Sheed through his entire career was he was way too unselfish.

The Cheeks losing confidence/him losing confidence is speculation by you, lets keep it factual, theres nothing factual that backs up those comments.

The statistics/games have shown running through Monroe & constantly finding Drum is the way to win, hence all our leads in the 2nd half, & going away from them is the way to lose.

I think you are answering your own rebutal yourself.

Like you say, Cheeks has no problem going to Monroe 1st-3rd quarters, but then ignores him in the 4th. What other conclusion is there to draw other than Cheeks has confidence in him early in games but not late? I don't think its just a coincidence that its happened this many times. Or Cheeks just goes amnesiac and can't remember that Monroe is an option.

I don't think its other players refusing to pass to him either. If Cheeks really wanted him to get the ball, he would be calling plays for him like he does in the 1st. And if those players are refusing to run the plays, then he would be benching them just like he benches Smith/KCP when they don't do what he wants.

Its speculation sure, but if you can think of another reason why, let me know. In my opinion thats the only logical explanation, because Cheeks has the power to go to Monroe every time if he wanted. The fact that he's choosing not to says to me that he has more confidence in other players in crunch time than him.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the leader/demanding the ball thing. I remember a lot of times where Sheed would get fed up with us not scoring, get in the post and demand the ball & go to work for us - and delivered more times than not. I would love to see Monroe do that - and deliver - I'm not sure he's capable though, and maybe he doesn't think he's capable either and that's why he shies away from the ball late. Remember its not just a matter of guys not passing to him. He has to get open and/or get in the post to make himself available for a pass. If he just stands still and does nothing (which I notice happening A LOT in the 4th) then its his own fault if no one passes to him.

[Clarity]

I think a lot of that is teams adjusting by the 4th quarter and not letting us do anything in the paint, forcing us to make outside shots and when we don't our offense falls apart.

Hard to disagree, like I said in July w/ 3 of the 5 guys being non shooters, it wasnt going to be hard to stop us. Pretty much went exactly how I thought it would.

Even so, personnel has been an issue but the way we play is still the story behind our failures.

I think you are answering your own rebutal yourself.

Like you say, Cheeks has no problem going to Monroe 1st-3rd quarters, but then ignores him in the 4th. What other conclusion is there to draw other than Cheeks has confidence in him early in games but not late? I don't think its just a coincidence that its happened this many times. Or Cheeks just goes amnesiac and can't remember that Monroe is an option.

I don't think its other players refusing to pass to him either. If Cheeks really wanted him to get the ball, he would be calling plays for him like he does in the 1st. And if those players are refusing to run the plays, then he would be benching them just like he benches Smith/KCP when they don't do what he wants.

Its speculation sure, but if you can think of another reason why, let me know. In my opinion thats the only logical explanation, because Cheeks has the power to go to Monroe every time if he wanted. The fact that he's choosing not to says to me that he has more confidence in other players in crunch time than him.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the leader/demanding the ball thing. I remember a lot of times where Sheed would get fed up with us not scoring, get in the post and demand the ball & go to work for us - and delivered more times than not. I would love to see Monroe do that - and deliver - I'm not sure he's capable though, and maybe he doesn't think he's capable either and that's why he shies away from the ball late. Remember its not just a matter of guys not passing to him. He has to get open and/or get in the post to make himself available for a pass. If he just stands still and does nothing (which I notice happening A LOT in the 4th) then its his own fault if no one passes to him.

Think its more so in the realm of thinking "Jennings is a wing, only wings can close" or "josh is our 54 m man, he should get the crunch time touches". Its easy to tell by Monroe's demeanor he knows hes a bad man on that block. I think one aspect that Cheeks has always struggled with (in Port as well) is managing the talent. Its funny because a football coach said a quote a few years ago that was so accurate. He in essence said having an overflow of talent, especially unique talent can be so difficult at times. From day 1, the focus should have been Monroe & Drummond, winning this or next year means nothing. Pieces like Jennings or Josh arent franchise players. If they were teams would have been lining up to keep them, let alone their own teams letting them go. Teams will line up for Monroe this Summer & will do the same for Drummond.

I'd love if he got on the block from the 5 min mark on & demanded it every time, everything in his skill set says he could dominate 95% of PF's out there, truthfully though, I said the same thing about Rasheed, him actually getting aggressive like that was rare. Players are often too nice. Its maddening with bigs because of their ability to get higher % looks than wings most of the time. Look at Lamarcus in Portland. He went from being petrified of the 4th qtr to being one of the best closers in the league this year. Some is him stepping up into that role but a lot of it is his team knows the ball goes to him.

Every stat thats been posted on here & the eye test this year says the ball should be in Monroe's hands at the end of games.

[MrBigShot]

Something to keep in mind: Does Monroe have a go to move? It seems like when he goes to the post he doesn't really have a consistent move/shot that he can rely on. Usually he'll face up and either try to get all the way to the rim, or do a spin move. I'd like to see him work on his basic hook shot more.

[sc8581]

I wonder if Singler being in the starting line-up instead of Monroe or Smith would allow KCP more opportunities to do something else other than spot up 3's.

[ComboGuardCity]

Something to keep in mind: Does Monroe have a go to move? It seems like when he goes to the post he doesn't really have a consistent move/shot that he can rely on. Usually he'll face up and either try to get all the way to the rim, or do a spin move. I'd like to see him work on his basic hook shot more.

He's got that weird up and under thing. It's definitely not pretty.

[Clarity]

Something to keep in mind: Does Monroe have a go to move? It seems like when he goes to the post he doesn't really have a consistent move/shot that he can rely on. Usually he'll face up and either try to get all the way to the rim, or do a spin move. I'd like to see him work on his basic hook shot more.

He has plenty of go to moves, his post game is very good from either block.

However i've long said a baby hook is something he has to acquire. Its ridiculous he hasnt yet.

Its mind boggling how many bigs dont have that, its bread & butter. It could take Blake Griffin from athlete to bball player.

[Brapman]

Youngest starting five in the league + the injury to Stuckey + plus nobody else (except Singler) rising up on the bench to be a very productive player + new system for team trying from scratch to establish chemistry = regular 4th quarter collapses.

[need4detroit]

Something to keep in mind: Does Monroe have a go to move? It seems like when he goes to the post he doesn't really have a consistent move/shot that he can rely on. Usually he'll face up and either try to get all the way to the rim, or do a spin move. I'd like to see him work on his basic hook shot more.

He has plenty of go to moves, his post game is very good from either block.

However i've long said a baby hook is something he has to acquire. Its ridiculous he hasnt yet.

Its mind boggling how many bigs dont have that, its bread & butter. It could take Blake Griffin from athlete to bball player.

He prefers the running hook over the baby hook which is a bit odd.

[c-dot]

Monroe in the 4th is a turnover ready to happen.

After you fumble a couple passes, dribble off your foot then miss a couple lay-ups its understandable why we don't go to him as much in the 4th. He's been doing this in the 4th before Smith, Jennings and Cheeks were here.

[wire28]

I dont think Monroe has proven he is really clutch so far but he is a good enough option to go to. The problem is they start sending double teams his way and he'll have to give up the ball anyway (unless they just keep feeding him and hope he can either beat the double team or hurry and get off a hook shot). We are losing because we arent a team, not because we arent feeding gregory. Ball movement as a whole is horrible. Along with bad D.

[Clarity]

He prefers the running hook over the baby hook which is a bit odd.

yup

Monroe in the 4th is a turnover ready to happen.

After you fumble a couple passes, dribble off your foot then miss a couple lay-ups its understandable why we don't go to him as much in the 4th. He's been doing this in the 4th before Smith, Jennings and Cheeks were here.

obviously a silly overreaction.

[c-dot]

He prefers the running hook over the baby hook which is a bit odd.

yup

Monroe in the 4th is a turnover ready to happen.

After you fumble a couple passes, dribble off your foot then miss a couple lay-ups its understandable why we don't go to him as much in the 4th. He's been doing this in the 4th before Smith, Jennings and Cheeks were here.

obviously a silly overreaction.

Overreaction? lol, do you even watch Monroe play or do you just look at the stats? He almost always makes a key turnover in crunch time, im surprised you haven't noticed this yet.

[Notanoob]

Considering how little Monroe actually sees the ball in crunch time, I doubt that very much. He's probably made just enough for you to extrapolate that to every 4th quarter and declare it a huge problem, but not almost always.

[c-dot]

He's been doing this for over two years now I'm surprised you guys are'nt seeing this (or maybe you're just in denial) But I have caught myself yelling at the TV multiple times because we gave Monroe the ball in Crunch time and he screwed it up. It will probably stand out more when he does it in the playoffs.

[Clarity]

Overreaction? lol, do you even watch Monroe play or do you just look at the stats? He almost always makes a key turnover in crunch time, im surprised you haven't noticed this yet.

I have watched every game since Monroe was drafted. If you look at any of my posts you'll see stats are pretty worthless to me 95% of the time.

The Monroe is a turnover machine narrative is comical at this point, not even close to factual. Let alone in the 4th qtr where hes not even used (as stats have been posted) Like every player, he has flaws but its gotten to the point that those flaws arent even in conversation in favor of fabricated nonsense like this.

[MrBigShot]

Overreaction? lol, do you even watch Monroe play or do you just look at the stats? He almost always makes a key turnover in crunch time, im surprised you haven't noticed this yet.

I have watched every game since Monroe was drafted. If you look at any of my posts you'll see stats are pretty worthless to me 95% of the time.

The Monroe is a turnover machine narrative is comical at this point, not even close to factual. Let alone in the 4th qtr where hes not even used (as stats have been posted) Like every player, he has flaws but its gotten to the point that those flaws arent even in conversation in favor of fabricated nonsense like this.

Well according to the stats, Monroe is more turnover prone (in terms of career TOV%) than any of our other top 6 scorers (Jennings, Smith, Stuckey, Singler). There is definitely some truth to what other posters are saying. And honestly, I would not be comfortable going to Moose on the last possession of the game because he has trouble finishing in traffic and refs tend to swallow their whistles at the end.

BUT, I do believe that we need to give him more touches down in the low post during the course of the 4th quarter. Like the stats in the OP show, he has the 2nd highest FG% in the 4th quarter and yet he is 2nd to last in attempts. If Cheeks is going to continue to be stubborn and stick with the 3 big lineup, then Moose needs more shot attempts and Smith needs less. Smith at small forward is absolutely toxic. Do people realize how bad 15ppg on 15 shot attempts is? That's awful. Chucker territory. The victory cigar, Charlie Villanueva, has never been that inefficient in his entire career.

Bottom line: Monroe may not be a very good closer with the game on the line, but he needs more touches/shot attempts. I guarantee if he was getting 15 instead of Smoove our record would be better and Monroe would be putting up something closer to 18/9 instead of the putrid 15ppg that Smith is giving us.

[Clarity]

Well according to the stats, Monroe is more turnover prone (in terms of career TOV%) than any of our other top 6 scorers (Jennings, Smith, Stuckey, Singler). There is definitely some truth to what other posters are saying. And honestly, I would not be comfortable going to Moose on the last possession of the game because he has trouble finishing in traffic and refs tend to swallow their whistles at the end.

BUT, I do believe that we need to give him more touches down in the low post during the course of the 4th quarter. Like the stats in the OP show, he has the 2nd highest FG% in the 4th quarter and yet he is 2nd to last in attempts. If Cheeks is going to continue to be stubborn and stick with the 3 big lineup, then Moose needs more shot attempts and Smith needs less. Smith at small forward is absolutely toxic. Do people realize how bad 15ppg on 15 shot attempts is? That's awful.

Bottom line: Monroe may not be a very good closer with the game on the line, but he needs more touches/shot attempts. I guarantee if he was getting 15 instead of Smoove our record would be better and Monroe would be putting up something closer to 18/9 instead of the putrid 15ppg that Smith is giving us.

I would attribute some of the turnovers (which are actually down 1 per game from last yr) to the paint being clogged 90% of the time. However Greg's inability to keep the ball high at times is his main issue, it creates even more issues when hes constantly doubled or swarmed because the other 2 bigs arent shooting threats.

Pretty spot on with the other stuff.

[menten]

Do people realize how bad 15ppg on 15 shot attempts is? That's awful. Chucker territory.

hmm, aldridge makes 23ppg on 21 shot attempts and he is an mvp candidate and his team the 2nd seed in the west..

[sc8581]

Do people realize how bad 15ppg on 15 shot attempts is? That's awful. Chucker territory.

hmm, aldridge makes 23ppg on 21 shot attempts and he is an mvp candidate and his team the 2nd seed in the west..

Exactly what I've been saying about Aldridge and getting ridiculed.

[MrBigShot]

Do people realize how bad 15ppg on 15 shot attempts is? That's awful. Chucker territory.

hmm, aldridge makes 23ppg on 21 shot attempts and he is an mvp candidate and his team the 2nd seed in the west..

Aldridge is still more efficient and way more impactful. There's no comparison to Aldridge and Smith at SF. But hey, don't take my word for it....you already know their team record.