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Good Grantland article on the Pistons

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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#41 » by HeroicKennedy » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:52 am

Sheeeeed wrote:
HeroicKennedy wrote:
Sheeeeed wrote:
Get back to me when hes due for a new contract.


Barring significant injuries, Drummond has already surpassed Jordan. He could completely plateau and he'd still be a top 3 center in the league.


My post had nothing to do with Jordan. It more do with acting like its a giving they should build around him, or saying thing like Drummond is the Pistons only chance at success when people a majority of people were saying the same thing about Monroe a couple of years ago before Drummond came along.


Drummond IS the best chance for success right now. There's no better player on the Pistons, and he's also only 20 years old. If Drummond fails, this team is in serious, serious trouble. If Drummond succeeds then this team has a top big man in the league and likely a top 10 player in the league at that point.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#42 » by MotownMadness » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:53 am

Sheeeeed wrote:
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Some do sure and some like Hibbert, George and others need time.


I wouldn't call Hibbert a star, and it obvious George was going to be a star last year in his 3rd season.


I like referencing Hibbert because he's a good example of what a raw center with potential can become with experience. Hibbert was a nothing his second year in the league and now he's the defensive anchor for the best defensive team in the league. Granted Drummonds already better than Hibbert at everything with individual statistics. Dre doesn't have that experience factor yet to really show what a skillset like his can really do for a team.

Drummond shows me all the signs of a defensive anchor in a few years. But he's also so much more than that as well and we have barely tapped into this kids potential.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#43 » by Sheeeeed » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:07 am

HeroicKennedy wrote:
Sheeeeed wrote:
HeroicKennedy wrote:
Barring significant injuries, Drummond has already surpassed Jordan. He could completely plateau and he'd still be a top 3 center in the league.


My post had nothing to do with Jordan. It more do with acting like its a giving they should build around him, or saying thing like Drummond is the Pistons only chance at success when people a majority of people were saying the same thing about Monroe a couple of years ago before Drummond came along.


Drummond IS the best chance for success right now. There's no better player on the Pistons, and he's also only 20 years old. If Drummond fails, this team is in serious, serious trouble. If Drummond succeeds then this team has a top big man in the league and likely a top 10 player in the league at that point.


You got to have the right group, not one player to have a chance at success.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#44 » by Sheeeeed » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:18 am

MotownMadness wrote:
Sheeeeed wrote:
MotownMadness wrote:
Some do sure and some like Hibbert, George and others need time.


I wouldn't call Hibbert a star, and it obvious George was going to be a star last year in his 3rd season.


I like referencing Hibbert because he's a good example of what a raw center with potential can become with experience. Hibbert was a nothing his second year in the league and now he's the defensive anchor for the best defensive team in the league. Granted Drummonds already better than Hibbert at everything with individual statistics. Dre doesn't have that experience factor yet to really show what a skillset like his can really do for a team.

Drummond shows me all the signs of a defensive anchor in a few years. But he's also so much more than that as well and we have barely tapped into this kids potential.


Tapping his potential isn't going to be as easy as tapping the A button in training camp mode is all I'm saying. Its not a given.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#45 » by MotownMadness » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:27 am

Sheeeeed wrote:
MotownMadness wrote:
Sheeeeed wrote:
I wouldn't call Hibbert a star, and it obvious George was going to be a star last year in his 3rd season.


I like referencing Hibbert because he's a good example of what a raw center with potential can become with experience. Hibbert was a nothing his second year in the league and now he's the defensive anchor for the best defensive team in the league. Granted Drummonds already better than Hibbert at everything with individual statistics. Dre doesn't have that experience factor yet to really show what a skillset like his can really do for a team.

Drummond shows me all the signs of a defensive anchor in a few years. But he's also so much more than that as well and we have barely tapped into this kids potential.


Tapping his potential isn't going to be as easy as tapping the A button in training camp mode is all I'm saying. Its not a given.


It's not even all potential with him though. He's putting up amazing numbers already for a second year player. That doesn't just get ignored with any franchise. You build on it because players like him don't come around often.

13ppg, 13rpg, 1.5stls, 1.8blks (which would be well over 2 per game if the team was better defensively), 27 double doubles which leads the East and is 3rd in the entire league are all nothing short of amazing stats for a second year raw center. I'm having a hard time seeing the same risk that you do building around this kid.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#46 » by MrBigShot » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:37 am

Drummond has developed quicker than I thought he would at the time we drafted him. I remember all the scouts and analysts saying he was a project with a questionable motor, who needed a few years before he could be a legitimate contributor. Boy did he ever put that to rest...and quickly. I don't disagree with the DeAndre comparison as of right now; they are similar players. I do think Dre is better though, and the most important thing to remember is that he's only 20 years old.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#47 » by HeroicKennedy » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:40 am

Sheeeeed wrote:
HeroicKennedy wrote:
Sheeeeed wrote:
My post had nothing to do with Jordan. It more do with acting like its a giving they should build around him, or saying thing like Drummond is the Pistons only chance at success when people a majority of people were saying the same thing about Monroe a couple of years ago before Drummond came along.


Drummond IS the best chance for success right now. There's no better player on the Pistons, and he's also only 20 years old. If Drummond fails, this team is in serious, serious trouble. If Drummond succeeds then this team has a top big man in the league and likely a top 10 player in the league at that point.


You got to have the right group, not one player to have a chance at success.


Right, you build the right group around your best player. Andre Drummond is already our best player at 20. He hasn't even enter is prime yet and he's one of the top producers in the league.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#48 » by Sheeeeed » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:30 am

HeroicKennedy wrote:
Sheeeeed wrote:
HeroicKennedy wrote:
Drummond IS the best chance for success right now. There's no better player on the Pistons, and he's also only 20 years old. If Drummond fails, this team is in serious, serious trouble. If Drummond succeeds then this team has a top big man in the league and likely a top 10 player in the league at that point.


You got to have the right group, not one player to have a chance at success.


Right, you build the right group around your best player. Andre Drummond is already our best player at 20. He hasn't even enter is prime yet and he's one of the top producers in the league.


Yes hes the Pistons best player on a team struggling in a bad eastern conference. I care more about wins than the numbers. Dumars and company have put too much faith in young players before, and look where its got them. I honestly don't see how its unreasonable not wanting to build around Drummond just yet. I need to see more.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#49 » by Clarity » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:06 am

HeroicKennedy wrote:Player A second season: 15.8 points, 12.5 rebounds, 1.4 blocks, 0.8 steals on 53.1% shooting (on 10.7 shots) in 36.8 minutes
Player B second season: 12.7 points, 12.7 rebounds, 1.8 blocks, 1.4 steals on 59.7% shooting (on 9.5 shots) in 32.6 minutes

Player A is Dwight Howard
Player B is Andre Drummond

That's how damn good Drummond is in his second season. That's why you build around him.


& That's now at 20 years old.

I said potential, Drummond has mega star, dominant potential. Endless writers & scouts have said that.

It's why it's hard to watch us float instead of focusing on him which is all that should matter if we want to be truly great again.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#50 » by Clarity » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:07 am

MotownMadness wrote:
Sheeeeed wrote:
MotownMadness wrote:
I like referencing Hibbert because he's a good example of what a raw center with potential can become with experience. Hibbert was a nothing his second year in the league and now he's the defensive anchor for the best defensive team in the league. Granted Drummonds already better than Hibbert at everything with individual statistics. Dre doesn't have that experience factor yet to really show what a skillset like his can really do for a team.

Drummond shows me all the signs of a defensive anchor in a few years. But he's also so much more than that as well and we have barely tapped into this kids potential.


Tapping his potential isn't going to be as easy as tapping the A button in training camp mode is all I'm saying. Its not a given.


It's not even all potential with him though. He's putting up amazing numbers already for a second year player. That doesn't just get ignored with any franchise. You build on it because players like him don't come around often.

13ppg, 13rpg, 1.5stls, 1.8blks (which would be well over 2 per game if the team was better defensively), 27 double doubles which leads the East and is 3rd in the entire league are all nothing short of amazing stats for a second year raw center. I'm having a hard time seeing the same risk that you do building around this kid.


Exactly
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#51 » by HeroicKennedy » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:18 pm

Sheeeeed wrote:
HeroicKennedy wrote:
Sheeeeed wrote:
You got to have the right group, not one player to have a chance at success.


Right, you build the right group around your best player. Andre Drummond is already our best player at 20. He hasn't even enter is prime yet and he's one of the top producers in the league.


Yes hes the Pistons best player on a team struggling in a bad eastern conference. I care more about wins than the numbers. Dumars and company have put too much faith in young players before, and look where its got them. I honestly don't see how its unreasonable not wanting to build around Drummond just yet. I need to see more.


And here's the problem: 20 year old players don't instantly lead the team to more wins. Once again, this is not an individual game. That's why when you observe the team as currently constructed, who is the player you build around? The one that's already exceptionally good at the age of 20. Who's already your best player. The problem with Dumars putting "too much faith" in young players is that no one (not even Monroe) produced at this high of a level through their first two seasons.

If you're not going to build around Drummond, then you are intentionally stunting his growth by build a team that clashes with his abilities, as we are doing right now. Drummond is succeeding DESPITE the players put around him, not because of it, and that's the bigger problem here. You cannot wait until year 4-5 of him in the league and go "OK, I guess it's time to build around him." You build NOW. You take advantage of the fact that you have him under team control for possibly 7 more seasons after this year. And if he doesn't pan out, then you cross that bridge down the road because if you wait and he does pan out, and you're still putting together 35-40 win teams, he's going to bolt quickly out of Detroit.

Basically, I don't want a team built around Josh Smith, Greg Monroe, Brandon Jennings, Kyle Singler, Rodney Stuckey, Charlie Villanueva, Luigi Datome, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, etc. We have one player worth building around, and that's Drummond. You want to make every possible move to help him succeed first, because that is your best ticket to becoming not only a playoff team, but a championship contender. And if he truly doesn't work out, then just hit the reset button. But at this rate, Drummond isn't going to fail unless we sabotage his development by not building around him. He's already a top center in the league and a top player in terms of wins produced. That alone shows he's worthy of building around even with some small flaws.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#52 » by Clarity » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:29 pm

HeroicKennedy wrote: If Drummond fails, this team is in serious, serious trouble..


this

MotownMadness wrote:
I like referencing Hibbert because he's a good example of what a raw center with potential can become with experience. Hibbert was a nothing his second year in the league and now he's the defensive anchor for the best defensive team in the league. Granted Drummonds already better than Hibbert at everything with individual statistics. Dre doesn't have that experience factor yet to really show what a skillset like his can really do for a team.

Drummond shows me all the signs of a defensive anchor in a few years. But he's also so much more than that as well and we have barely tapped into this kids potential.


Hibbert wasnt raw, he was a very polished offensive player & shot blocker at GTown. Hes just not an athletic freak & lacks killer instinct. He had multiple polished back to the basket moves on NBA Day 1.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#53 » by ChipButty » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:22 pm

Sheeeeed wrote:
HeroicKennedy wrote:
Sheeeeed wrote:
You got to have the right group, not one player to have a chance at success.


Right, you build the right group around your best player. Andre Drummond is already our best player at 20. He hasn't even enter is prime yet and he's one of the top producers in the league.


Yes hes the Pistons best player on a team struggling in a bad eastern conference. I care more about wins than the numbers. Dumars and company have put too much faith in young players before, and look where its got them. I honestly don't see how its unreasonable not wanting to build around Drummond just yet. I need to see more.


I tend to agree. It doesn't get any more basic than scoring/allowing points, so I thought these stats were interesting:

Offensive rating: number of points per 100 possessions that the team scores while player is on the court

Greg Monroe: 103.2
Brandon Jennings: 103.2
Josh Smith: 102.8
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: 102.0
Andre Drummond: 101.8

Defensive rating: number of points per 100 possessions that the team allows while player is on the court

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: 102.1
Josh Smith: 104.9
Greg Monroe:105.6
Brandon Jennings: 106.6
Andre Drummond: 107.8

KCP has the best net of all starters. Drummond has the worst. Drummond is definitely the most exciting propect on the team, but it's hard to convince me that he is already our best player.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#54 » by Notanoob » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:39 pm

ChipButty wrote:
Sheeeeed wrote:
HeroicKennedy wrote:
Right, you build the right group around your best player. Andre Drummond is already our best player at 20. He hasn't even enter is prime yet and he's one of the top producers in the league.


Yes hes the Pistons best player on a team struggling in a bad eastern conference. I care more about wins than the numbers. Dumars and company have put too much faith in young players before, and look where its got them. I honestly don't see how its unreasonable not wanting to build around Drummond just yet. I need to see more.


I tend to agree. It doesn't get any more basic than scoring/allowing points, so I thought these stats were interesting:

Offensive rating: number of points per 100 possessions that the team scores while player is on the court

Greg Monroe: 103.2
Brandon Jennings: 103.2
Josh Smith: 102.8
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: 102.0
Andre Drummond: 101.8

Defensive rating: number of points per 100 possessions that the team allows while player is on the court

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: 102.1
Josh Smith: 104.9
Greg Monroe:105.6
Brandon Jennings: 106.6
Andre Drummond: 107.8

KCP has the best net of all starters. Drummond has the worst. Drummond is definitely the most exciting propect on the team, but it's hard to convince me that he is already our best player.

Where are you getting these from, Basketball-reference? If so, those numbers have changed dramatically since I last checked. Drummond was one of our best players, while Josh Smith was one of our worst. I specifically remember JSMoove having an Ortg of 97, which is abysmal.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#55 » by ChipButty » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:04 pm

Notanoob wrote:
ChipButty wrote:
Sheeeeed wrote:
Yes hes the Pistons best player on a team struggling in a bad eastern conference. I care more about wins than the numbers. Dumars and company have put too much faith in young players before, and look where its got them. I honestly don't see how its unreasonable not wanting to build around Drummond just yet. I need to see more.


I tend to agree. It doesn't get any more basic than scoring/allowing points, so I thought these stats were interesting:

Offensive rating: number of points per 100 possessions that the team scores while player is on the court

Greg Monroe: 103.2
Brandon Jennings: 103.2
Josh Smith: 102.8
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: 102.0
Andre Drummond: 101.8

Defensive rating: number of points per 100 possessions that the team allows while player is on the court

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: 102.1
Josh Smith: 104.9
Greg Monroe:105.6
Brandon Jennings: 106.6
Andre Drummond: 107.8

KCP has the best net of all starters. Drummond has the worst. Drummond is definitely the most exciting propect on the team, but it's hard to convince me that he is already our best player.

Where are you getting these from, Basketball-reference? If so, those numbers have changed dramatically since I last checked. Drummond was one of our best players, while Josh Smith was one of our worst. I specifically remember JSMoove having an Ortg of 97, which is abysmal.


I took them from nba.com

http://stats.nba.com/playerStats.html?P ... de=PerGame
http://stats.nba.com/playerStats.html?P ... de=PerGame
http://stats.nba.com/playerStats.html?P ... de=PerGame
http://stats.nba.com/playerStats.html?P ... de=PerGame
http://stats.nba.com/playerStats.html?P ... de=PerGame

I looked them up a couple of days ago and was going to post on KCP's thread, about how impressive they were for him. At the time I was surprised by how bad Drummond's looked.

The definition they provide indicates that it's actually measuring the number of points the team is scoring/conceding while the player is on the floor. If true it indicates to me the team is struggling with Dre on the floor. The basketball-reference stat sounds more like a metric that is estimating points produced/allowed by a player. Could be wrong, I'm not a stats guru..
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#56 » by MotownMadness » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:55 pm

ChipButty wrote:
Sheeeeed wrote:
HeroicKennedy wrote:
Right, you build the right group around your best player. Andre Drummond is already our best player at 20. He hasn't even enter is prime yet and he's one of the top producers in the league.


Yes hes the Pistons best player on a team struggling in a bad eastern conference. I care more about wins than the numbers. Dumars and company have put too much faith in young players before, and look where its got them. I honestly don't see how its unreasonable not wanting to build around Drummond just yet. I need to see more.


I tend to agree. It doesn't get any more basic than scoring/allowing points, so I thought these stats were interesting:

Offensive rating: number of points per 100 possessions that the team scores while player is on the court

Greg Monroe: 103.2
Brandon Jennings: 103.2
Josh Smith: 102.8
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: 102.0
Andre Drummond: 101.8

Defensive rating: number of points per 100 possessions that the team allows while player is on the court

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: 102.1
Josh Smith: 104.9
Greg Monroe:105.6
Brandon Jennings: 106.6
Andre Drummond: 107.8

KCP has the best net of all starters. Drummond has the worst. Drummond is definitely the most exciting propect on the team, but it's hard to convince me that he is already our best player.


That's hard to take to serious though. We are one of the worst defensive teams in the league. So it's damn near impossible to judge his defense with that. Those stats will show that George Hill is a better defender than Howard and Davis because Hes on a better team. Or that Calderon is a better defender than John Henson.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#57 » by Snakebites » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:36 pm

MotownMadness wrote:
ChipButty wrote:
Sheeeeed wrote:
Yes hes the Pistons best player on a team struggling in a bad eastern conference. I care more about wins than the numbers. Dumars and company have put too much faith in young players before, and look where its got them. I honestly don't see how its unreasonable not wanting to build around Drummond just yet. I need to see more.


I tend to agree. It doesn't get any more basic than scoring/allowing points, so I thought these stats were interesting:

Offensive rating: number of points per 100 possessions that the team scores while player is on the court

Greg Monroe: 103.2
Brandon Jennings: 103.2
Josh Smith: 102.8
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: 102.0
Andre Drummond: 101.8

Defensive rating: number of points per 100 possessions that the team allows while player is on the court

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: 102.1
Josh Smith: 104.9
Greg Monroe:105.6
Brandon Jennings: 106.6
Andre Drummond: 107.8

KCP has the best net of all starters. Drummond has the worst. Drummond is definitely the most exciting propect on the team, but it's hard to convince me that he is already our best player.


That's hard to take to serious though. We are one of the worst defensive teams in the league. So it's damn near impossible to judge his defense with that. Those stats will show that George Hill is a better defender than Howard and Davis because Hes on a better team. Or that Calderon is a better defender than John Henson.


Those ratings are useful to evaluate whole teams and 5 man lineups and not much else.

Even comparing a players offensive rating to that of the team as a whole isn't really all that accurate.


I suppose you could use those ratings to compare 5 man lineups including that player to similar lineups without him, but I don't think you'll ever get enough of a sample size that way.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#58 » by Notanoob » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:55 pm

I believe that Basketball-Reference's version of the stat is more accurate a slightly more useful than NBA.com's, but they are hardly gospel (especially when we haven't even played the whole season yet) and you might want to ask the Stats board here for more about it.
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Re: Good Grantland article on the Pistons 

Post#59 » by ComboGuardCity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:35 am

Notanoob wrote:I believe that Basketball-Reference's version of the stat is more accurate a slightly more useful than NBA.com's, but they are hardly gospel (especially when we haven't even played the whole season yet) and you might want to ask the Stats board here for more about it.


Based on what?

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