Defending Joe Dumars...

[DTP]

For the most part, Joe D drafts really well- Tayshaun, Memo, Stuckey, Afflalo, Monroe, Drummond, Johnson, Delfino, Maxiell. Outside of Darko and Austin Daye...

[Navas]

Afflalo is a decent player but as I said before, he's not going to elevate this team, good piece to have if your team is great.

As for Joe D, internet outrage and sports fan outrage tends to over blow things. Aside from Raptors fans, I don't think I've ever seen Bryan Colangelo get as much crap as Joe D does.

[fekz]

I support Joe, but I can't be mad if he gets canned either. I think he's made some bad moves, but he has also brought us a championship, so let's take a look at that.

Championships:
17 Boston Celtics 2007-08, 1985-86, 1983-84, 1980-81, 1975-76, 1973-74, 1968-69,
1967-68, 1965-66, 1964-65, 1963-64, 1962-63, 1961-62,
1960-61, 1959-60, 1958-59, 1956-57

16 Los Angeles Lakers 2009-10, 2008-09, 2001-02, 2000-01, 1999-00, 1987-88 , 1986-87,
1984-85, 1981-82, 1979-80, 1971-72
(as Los Angeles Lakers)
1953-54, 1952-53, 1951-52, 1949-50, 1948-49
(as Minneapolis Lakers)

6 Chicago Bulls 1997-98, 1996-97, 1995-96, 1992-93, 1991-92, 1990-91
4 San Antonio Spurs 2006-07, 2004-05, 2002-03, 1998-99

3 Detroit Pistons 2003-04, 1989-90, 1988-89

3 Golden State Warriors 1974-75 (as Golden State Warriors)
1955-56, 1946-47 (as Philadelphia Warriors)

3 Miami Heat 2012-13, 2011-12, 2005-06

3 Philadelphia 76ers 1982-83, 1966-67 (as Philadelphia 76ers)
1954-55 (as Syracuse Nationals)

2 Houston Rockets 1994-95, 1993-94

2 New York Knicks 1972-73, 1969-70

1 Atlanta Hawks 1957-58 (as St. Louis Hawks)

1 Baltimore Bullets
(defunct franchise) 1947-48

1 Dallas Mavericks 2010-11

1 Milwaukee Bucks 1970-71

1 Oklahoma City Thunder 1978-79 (as Seattle Supersonics)

1 Portland Trail Blazers 1976-77

1 Sacramento Kings 1950-51 (as Rochester Royals)

1 Washington Wizards 1977-78 (as Washington Bullets)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How many GM's are bringing 'ships home right now? How many teams have done anything within the last decade? two decades? We can blame joe for some questionable moves for sure, but he's been a pretty solid GM who has had his hands tied by transitioning ownership and adjusting to the style of an owner who doesn't understand basketball and wants immediate results. His drafts have been 50/50, but his recent draft choices post Darko have been awesome. His coaching selection has been **** terrible, and if there was any reason i'd want him gone, it would be for hiring Kuester, Curry, Frank, and Cheeks. Seriously those are some of the worst decisions I've ever seen, and I pray he's learned you can't scour the bargain bin for a good coach like you can to put together a solid team.

[Warspite]

Here's my question:

Where is Joe Dumars?

Although never extremely accessible, in the early years Joe was willing to conduct the occassional interview to discuss the status of the team, the direction, the vision, etc.

In recent years, he's been nearly invisible during the season. In fact, this year I would call him completely invisible. Not a peep out of him. Not accessible whatsoever. No comments, nothing.

As a fan, that is frustrating. It's as if he's in the witness protection program.

Mayhew is pretty invisible with the Lions as well during the season (not this bad). That's frustrating. However, Dombrowski has always seemed willing to speak on occassion, as does Ken Holland.


But Dumars...it's like he doesn't even exist anymore outside of the occasional "statement" for the press. It's really something.

I have to wonder why he still wants this job. At this point, shouldn't he just walk away and live the rest of his life peacefully? Does he have that much love for the Pistons that HE wants to be the one to make it right? I guess that's possible after nearly 30 years. However, his invisibility seems to indicate he's as miserable as the rest of this fan base and knows the writing is on the wall.

Joe - perhaps it's time to just walk away for your own sanity? You seem to be living a nightmare.

Thats interesting because here in phx the Suns GM spends 1 hr on the radio once a week and takes questions and phone calls. He also visits the other 2 sports talk stations for a segment interview every couple of weeks. I just figured Joe was on the flagship radio station every week to talk Pistons.

Wizards=Bullets Its the same franchise. I know you think Baltimore and Washington are far apart but they are as close as Detroit and Windsor.

[DonVitoReturns]

Here's my question:

Where is Joe Dumars?

Although never extremely accessible, in the early years Joe was willing to conduct the occassional interview to discuss the status of the team, the direction, the vision, etc.

In recent years, he's been nearly invisible during the season. In fact, this year I would call him completely invisible. Not a peep out of him. Not accessible whatsoever. No comments, nothing.

As a fan, that is frustrating. It's as if he's in the witness protection program.

Mayhew is pretty invisible with the Lions as well during the season (not this bad). That's frustrating. However, Dombrowski has always seemed willing to speak on occassion, as does Ken Holland.


But Dumars...it's like he doesn't even exist anymore outside of the occasional "statement" for the press. It's really something.

I have to wonder why he still wants this job. At this point, shouldn't he just walk away and live the rest of his life peacefully? Does he have that much love for the Pistons that HE wants to be the one to make it right? I guess that's possible after nearly 30 years. However, his invisibility seems to indicate he's as miserable as the rest of this fan base and knows the writing is on the wall.

Joe - perhaps it's time to just walk away for your own sanity? You seem to be living a nightmare.

Thats interesting because here in phx the Suns GM spends 1 hr on the radio once a week and takes questions and phone calls. He also visits the other 2 sports talk stations for a segment interview every couple of weeks. I just figured Joe was on the flagship radio station every week to talk.

No kidding? Every week? Incredible. Dumars has never been anywhere close to that accessible even in the good years...but now he's absolutely silent...and Gores shows up a couple times during the season, then at the end of year to make all of his bold statements. The rest of the time we are stuck listening to these coaches speaking their gobbledygook.

And they wonder why no one shows up at the Palace?...

[wallsfamily]

Here is my take on Joe Dumars. There are three areas that a General Manager can be judged:

1. Draft: in the draft Dumars has messed up with Milicic and George and possibly burke this year. But he has drafted Monroe, Drummond, Stuckey, Affalo, Okur, Prince, Maxiel. i would give him a 7.5 out of 10 for that.


2. Player Acquisition (trades and free agents) Here is his up and down. The Hamilton trade and the Wallace trade were great but the Affalo and too late breakup of the championship team was his downfall. His free agent signings have been a mess overall with no look at either building the team around them or fit into the current team culture. For instance a team with two skilled seven footers needs shooters and playmakers.


3. Cap Space He cannot sign free agents. He is horrible at it Other than that he manages space well. For instance the expirings now and the upcoming extensions work out just right to keep flexibility.

[jakebernat]

can we stop saying joe "missed" on burke?? I'm much happier with jennings and KCP than I would've been with knight and burke...GAG

Sent from my SPH-L720 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Clarity]

Afflalo is a decent player but as I said before, he's not going to elevate this team, good piece to have if your team is great.

As for Joe D, internet outrage and sports fan outrage tends to over blow things. Aside from Raptors fans, I don't think I've ever seen Bryan Colangelo get as much crap as Joe D does.

Good post

People get lost in stats a lot & struggle to differentiate good players from franchise changers.

Good players can be anywhere from above average role players to borderline All Stars.

Aaron Afflalo is a good player, Andre Drummond is a franchise changer.

[Kilo]

That's definitely a different angle to Dumars ineptitude - if he wasn't so **** than we would have been better and Drummond would be elsewhere. Butterfly effect says that's correct assumption of course. So criticisms of Dumars should be A.D. After Drummond - so basically only Cheeks hire, Gordon trade, KCP pick, Jennings trade and Smith signing.

[Joe Berry]

Dumars is decent at drafting, average at trading and terrible when it comes to free agency and extending his own players.
Assembling the 04 roster was more luck then anything else. Dumars tried to sign Tim Thomas and Chris Webber to ridiculous huge contracts but failed to do so. Big Ben and Chauncey for the MLE was a big gamble at the time which payed off obviously.

Its time for a new GM, someone who knows advanced statistics, someone who understands the new CBA, someone who doesn't overpay for talent that doesn't fit with our franchise player.

[Notanoob]

can we stop saying joe "missed" on burke?? I'm much happier with jennings and KCP than I would've been with knight and burke...GAG

Sent from my SPH-L720 using RealGM Forums mobile app

The only guy we really missed on was Giannis. That kid+Drummond=most athletic team ever.

MCW has been coming back to earth, shooing poorly (29% from 3, 39% overall, on high attempts) and turning over the ball a ton. Still doing better than I expected, but I don't think he'll be a star.

Burke looks like he can continue to start in this league, but we can find equal or better PGs elsewhere.

[Q00]

I was thinking about it and how many coach's has Dumars really fired?

- Davidson fired Carlisle, Brown, and Saunders
- Joe fired Curry
- Gores fired Kuester, Frank, and Cheeks

Also, how many of these coach's should Joe really blamed for hiring?

There's nothing to blame him for hiring Carlise/Brown/Saunders because they all succeeded. So of the last 4, you can blame him for hiring Curry and you can semi-blame him for hiring Kuester (He wanted Avery but Karen refused to pay, so he ended up with whatever was the cheapest option in Kuester). And it was reported that Gores hired Frank and who knows who hired Cheeks with the whole Phil Jackson thing.

I'm not really trying to defend Dumars either, but rather just trying to sort out the facts here of what he was actually responsible for, as a lot of people seem to just hate him and want him removed without acknowledging that maybe he wasn't totally responsible for all of these coaching decisions.

What you think of his personnel moves is mostly subjective and everyone has their opinions, but the bottom line is you look at what the Pistons have done as a whole in the 13 years under his watch, and the numbers say he's been a net positive. 93 games above .500 winning record in the regular season. 20 game above .500 winning record in the playoffs.

- 556-463 Regular Season record
- 77-57 Playoff record
- 8 Playoff appearances
- 16 series wins
- 6 ECF appearances
- 2 Finals appearance
- 1 Championship

If they make the playoffs again this year it will be 9 playoff appearances in 13 seasons.

Again I'm not saying this to defend him. I'm really just trying to look at it objectively. If I was just a casual observer and you showed me that resume, I would probably say you're crazy for even thinking about firing him, because its pretty rare for any GM in any sport to have a resume like that. Most GMs who get fired aren't 93 games above .500 with potentially 9 playoff appearances in 13 years and a winning playoff record. They get fired because they have losing records and no playoff success.

I know the championship was 10 years ago, but even if you take the championship out of the equation (because most GMs don't even have championships on their resume and are just judged on wins/losses) and you just judged him on that, its still as good or better than any other GM in the league over the last 13 years, besides maybe RC Buford.

I'm just wondering if maybe people have been too hard on him, because overall he's actually been a positive asset to this franchise. From post-Chuck Daly to Dumars first real season, the team was 328-378 with a 4-12 playoff record and 0 series wins. Compare that to what the franchise has done under Dumars (above) and its night and day.

[ChainLink]

can we stop saying joe "missed" on burke?? I'm much happier with jennings and KCP than I would've been with knight and burke...GAG

Sent from my SPH-L720 using RealGM Forums mobile app

The only guy we really missed on was Giannis. That kid+Drummond=most athletic team ever.

MCW has been coming back to earth, shooing poorly (29% from 3, 39% overall, on high attempts) and turning over the ball a ton. Still doing better than I expected, but I don't think he'll be a star.

Burke looks like he can continue to start in this league, but we can find equal or better PGs elsewhere.

I agree with both of you. I don't think Trey Burke is going to be anyone we'll regret in the future...I'm very satisfied with the KCP pick and while Jennings is an idiot at times he's more talented than Knight and Burke.