The Good, Bad, and the Ugly

[kurtis48239]

I just wanted to start off with this documentary about how the 04 squad came together and won and the stories surrounding it.Iam sure some of us have seen it but maybe some of the younger posters havent and its a good insite about the team,the trades,and dumars thoughts and actions creating that squad.

So here you go.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ12-J5OTxw&list=PL32329D57011890F6[/youtube]#1[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWEwGnxlRrI&index=2&list=PL32329D57011890F6[/youtube]#2[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tg0CWsNUhU&list=PL32329D57011890F6&index=3[/youtube]#3[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC7FM3NUaAU&index=4&list=PL32329D57011890F6[/youtube]#4

I just dont understand how joe could go from putting together that team to what hes done after.He has totally gone away from that formula.Even tho I would rather have smith at PF than moose neither of them are the right fits next to dre.Dre is almost the exact same style of player that big ben was,except is bigger,taller,and might develope a better offensive game around the basket.What dumars should do is strip this team down to the bolts (yes I stole that line) and get rid of the players like moose,smith,jennings if their not willing to take back seats and go and get a pf like sheed was,a pf who can play defense,score out around the perrimiter,has an inside game as well and can rebound.He also needs to bring in a pg that can hit perrimiter and mid range shots,has court vision and can pass and can play at least decent defense.The sg-sf role are players that can hit shots and play defense,and get guys on decent contracts,then fill out our bench.

I just dont understand why dumars wouldnt go this route when he has a center like dre and basicly build a mirrow image of the 04 squad.Hopefuly whatever new gm comes in uses that same formula and brings in a defensive minded coach (thibs) and brings this team back to its roots.

Moose would be the perfect center off the bench,but I doubt he would be willing to take that role considering his age and what hes putting up,he kind of reminds me of omer asik in that he thinks he could be a starting center on a championship team.

[The Penguin]

It was easier for Joe starting out as the team had just lost Hill and had zero expectations.

I think Lebron played a big part in wrecking Joe's philosophy. The '04 team's philosophy was to go to work every day, no one player was bigger than anyone else. Lebron came along and single handidly destroyed us, the team had no answer for him and wasn't able to create enough offense to keep up. Once that happened Joe started to chase guys who were names (Iverson, Gordon, continuing to Smith) over guys with chips on their shoulder. We lost the leadership and accountability within the team with LB and Chauncey leaving. Guys were allowed to pout (Rip) and dog it (CV31) and Joe started cycling through coaches. The turmoil in the ownership spot helped contribute to having no direction and turning us into a treadmill team.


Bottom line, Joe started chasing the past, put us in a bad spot the BG-CV31 summer and then lacked the job security to rip it down correctly.

[jakebernat]

get a pf like sheed was,a pf who can play defense,score out around the perrimiter,has an inside game as well and can rebound.He also needs to bring in a pg that can hit perrimiter and mid range shots,has court vision and can pass and can play at least decent defense.

adreian payne and tyler ennis?? that would make me extremely happy lol

[DocRI]

I just dont understand how joe could go from putting together that team to what hes done after.He has totally gone away from that formula.

Thank you for posting the videos, Kurtis. Before I reply, I have to confess that I haven't had the chance to watch them yet!

That said, I respectfully disagree with the part of your post I quoted. I think Dumars' biggest problem has been that he's continually tried to stick to his same "formula," only what he's proved is that he caught lightning in a bottle when he created our '04 championship team and that "formula" is unrepeatable. This isn't a big shock, to tell you the truth; people in all walks of life, in all jobs, commonly repeat what has worked for them in the past. I feel Joe has literally tried to spend the last decade trying to build a team in the manner that worked for him before, only the pieces weren't available and the landscape of the league had changed. Please consider —

• Joe's penchant for acquiring former lottery picks who had struggled (for various reasons) and hadn't reached their potential. On the '04 team (and then shortly thereafter), he struck gold over and over again with acquisitions like Chauncey, Rip, Rasheed, Corliss, McDyess, and even Elden Campbell. Unfortunately, they were followed over the years by Gordon, CV, Wiclox, Kwame, and (most recently) Jennings. The '04 championship team was, in a lot of ways, "The Island of Misfit Toys" from Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer; since those glory days, however, Joe has brought in misfits who failed to find a home here.

• Joe continually found under-drafted (or even undrafted!) talent like Ben, Tay, and Okur; you can even say he kept that up with picks like Stuckey, Afflalo, and Amir. Where have those diamonds in the rough gone? They've been replaced with names like Walter Sharpe, DeJuan Summers and Terrico White. Even "success stories" like Jerebko and Singler pale in comparison to the talent he used to find.

• Joe's biggest problem, IMHO, is in the construction of the team itself. The '04 squad was really a "communist" team without one central star and where everyone shared the ball; in fact, I'd say it's tough to state who definitively was our #1 offensive option between Chauncey, Rip and Sheed. In a lot of ways, that's a reflection of how Joe Dumars played during his own HOF career. And that team hit the NBA at exactly the right time; the era of "two stars and a bunch of role players" (i.e. the Shaq-Kobe Lakers) was ending, and as such Joe's "total team" approach was ahead of the curve. Then the next generation of true superstars hit the scene — LeBron, Wade, Melo, CP3, Howard, etc. — rules were tweaked to favor offense over defense, and he was behind the curve. Could a team constructed like the '04 Pistons win a championship in today's NBA? I'd like to believe yes, but much like our last championship team, it would have to be PERFECTLY constructed. Shoving out a handful of "non-aplha-dogs" like BG, CV, or Smith simply isn't gonna cut it.

The irony here is that, despite his philosophy, Dumars lucked into landing an honest-to-god true franchise "alpha dog" whom he SHOULD be building around in Andre Drummond. And, as such, he doesn't know what to do. Instead of building him a team of his own, Dumars is trying to re-build the '04 team around him, and Andre Drummond is NOT Ben Wallace. That's why Joe needs to go — not only has his time passed, but it's the absolutely wrong approach to be taking when we've got a single asset like Dre. To make a music analogy, the '04 squad were like The Beatles, so Joe keeps trying to shoe horn solo acts in here and form them into a band. Our next championship team needs to be built like Bruce Springsteen & The E-Street Band, with Dre playing the lead role of "The Boss."

[dVs33]

Like DocRi mentioned, Dumars "Formula" is flawed.

simply putting underachievers with talent together isn't going to cut it. the goin' to work pistons were a perfect storm and we saw what happened once a single element (larry brown) was removed.

[Clarity]

Oh, if "going & getting a Sheed' was only that easy. lol

& some of the Moose comparisons are hilarious, Omer Asik? What in the??

[ChipButty]

Defense! Some great highlights on those videos. Good times!

[MotownMadness]

Oh, if "going & getting a Sheed' was only that easy. lol

& some of the Moose comparisons are hilarious, Omer Asik? What in the??

Yeah why would anyone compare Monroe to Asik lol.

[kurtis48239]

I just dont understand how joe could go from putting together that team to what hes done after.He has totally gone away from that formula.

Thank you for posting the videos, Kurtis. Before I reply, I have to confess that I haven't had the chance to watch them yet!

That said, I respectfully disagree with the part of your post I quoted. I think Dumars' biggest problem has been that he's continually tried to stick to his same "formula," only what he's proved is that he caught lightning in a bottle when he created our '04 championship team and that "formula" is unrepeatable. This isn't a big shock, to tell you the truth; people in all walks of life, in all jobs, commonly repeat what has worked for them in the past. I feel Joe has literally tried to spend the last decade trying to build a team in the manner that worked for him before, only the pieces weren't available and the landscape of the league had changed. Please consider —

• Joe's penchant for acquiring former lottery picks who had struggled (for various reasons) and hadn't reached their potential. On the '04 team (and then shortly thereafter), he struck gold over and over again with acquisitions like Chauncey, Rip, Rasheed, Corliss, McDyess, and even Elden Campbell. Unfortunately, they were followed over the years by Gordon, CV, Wiclox, Kwame, and (most recently) Jennings. The '04 championship team was, in a lot of ways, "The Island of Misfit Toys" from Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer; since those glory days, however, Joe has brought in misfits who failed to find a home here.

• Joe continually found under-drafted (or even undrafted!) talent like Ben, Tay, and Okur; you can even say he kept that up with picks like Stuckey, Afflalo, and Amir. Where have those diamonds in the rough gone? They've been replaced with names like Walter Sharpe, DeJuan Summers and Terrico White. Even "success stories" like Jerebko and Singler pale in comparison to the talent he used to find.

• Joe's biggest problem, IMHO, is in the construction of the team itself. The '04 squad was really a "communist" team without one central star and where everyone shared the ball; in fact, I'd say it's tough to state who definitively was our #1 offensive option between Chauncey, Rip and Sheed. In a lot of ways, that's a reflection of how Joe Dumars played during his own HOF career. And that team hit the NBA at exactly the right time; the era of "two stars and a bunch of role players" (i.e. the Shaq-Kobe Lakers) was ending, and as such Joe's "total team" approach was ahead of the curve. Then the next generation of true superstars hit the scene — LeBron, Wade, Melo, CP3, Howard, etc. — rules were tweaked to favor offense over defense, and he was behind the curve. Could a team constructed like the '04 Pistons win a championship in today's NBA? I'd like to believe yes, but much like our last championship team, it would have to be PERFECTLY constructed. Shoving out a handful of "non-aplha-dogs" like BG, CV, or Smith simply isn't gonna cut it.

The irony here is that, despite his philosophy, Dumars lucked into landing an honest-to-god true franchise "alpha dog" whom he SHOULD be building around in Andre Drummond. And, as such, he doesn't know what to do. Instead of building him a team of his own, Dumars is trying to re-build the '04 team around him, and Andre Drummond is NOT Ben Wallace. That's why Joe needs to go — not only has his time passed, but it's the absolutely wrong approach to be taking when we've got a single asset like Dre. To make a music analogy, the '04 squad were like The Beatles, so Joe keeps trying to shoe horn solo acts in here and form them into a band. Our next championship team needs to be built like Bruce Springsteen & The E-Street Band, with Dre playing the lead role of "The Boss."

Thanks I really enjoy watching those vids of what once was.I should have worded the part about him using the same formula.He has tried but cv while a good shooter in his time and ok rebounder was not a good defender at all and I usually give him a pass on gordon if he hadant resigned rip.I also think he put to much stock into stuckey being the next billups,he should have went with someone who was already there in terms of the potential he was hoping for in stuck or just kept billups.Oh well whats done is done and lets hope gores gets it right after the season if/when dumars is gone.

[BadMofoPimp]

Joe got away from the Successful Pistons style of play which was Team Defense. That won both our Championship runs.