Just a remind...this is on Gores.

[theBigLip]

Like was mentioned earlier, this was a $15M in savings for losing this pick. BG and Maggette both sucked by the time the trade happened, so it really comes down to money. And if we wanted to get our pick back, we could do that for a lot less than $15M. So we really came out ahead.

[thesack12]

First part is speculation, primarily by Detroit media. But for the sake of your argument, lets just say it was re-offered. Cleveland's main motivation in any Rip trade was Detroit's draft pick. Still wanting that pick, if they indeed revisited it, its not hard to see them thinking, a few moths after the initial talk, Rip may have had a change of heart whether it be becoming a Cavalier or agreeing to a buyout.

Kind of counter productive to go through with all that process, knowing you are going to inform Rip eventually anyways, dont you think? Besides last time I checked teams have to perform physicals on incoming players in order to complete trades. This being the case, Rip obviously would have ben notified he had to report to Cleveland for said physical. All he had to do was refuse to do so/continue to refuse a buyout.

Agreeing to the trade would of still bought time for Cleveland to negotiate a buyout. All Dumars did in that situation was give Rip leverage when he was told about the trade.

I have stated a few reasons where logical connections could easily be made. What proof do you have that shows this was entirely at the behest of Dumars?

Logical connections like saving Davidson money? Hey lets ignore how that trade would of benefit the team's cap situation even if trading 1st is hard to swallow. We all know how Joe loves his cap space to make terrible moves. The proof I have is HES the damn gm.

So you're saying that having more time would have helped Cleveland? That would have bought them a day, maybe 2. Plus, the trade was reportedly agreed to anyways. We don't have facts on the timeline of when Rip was informed. But the way that situation all played seems to indicate that Rip was informed after the outline of the trade was agreed upon by Detroit and Cleveland. At which time Rip declined a desire to have any involvement with Cleveland. It surely doesn't seem like Rip was in the loop and on the fence about what he was going to do, then ultimately decided to decline. Either way, an extra day or 2 likely would have made no difference at all. Rip seemed like he was not interested at all in such a situation, and he used what little leverage he had.

Right, because Karen Davidson sure seemed real keen on spending $ on the team at that particular point in time. I find it hard to believe that the cap space a Rip trade would have created, would have been allowed to be utilized at that time. And just so you know GM =/= the owner. Its pretty safe to assume that decisions that involve large sums of $ are layed on the owner's desk for approval or denial.

[Sheeeeed]

First part is speculation, primarily by Detroit media. But for the sake of your argument, lets just say it was re-offered. Cleveland's main motivation in any Rip trade was Detroit's draft pick. Still wanting that pick, if they indeed revisited it, its not hard to see them thinking, a few moths after the initial talk, Rip may have had a change of heart whether it be becoming a Cavalier or agreeing to a buyout.

Kind of counter productive to go through with all that process, knowing you are going to inform Rip eventually anyways, dont you think? Besides last time I checked teams have to perform physicals on incoming players in order to complete trades. This being the case, Rip obviously would have ben notified he had to report to Cleveland for said physical. All he had to do was refuse to do so/continue to refuse a buyout.

Agreeing to the trade would of still bought time for Cleveland to negotiate a buyout. All Dumars did in that situation was give Rip leverage when he was told about the trade.

I have stated a few reasons where logical connections could easily be made. What proof do you have that shows this was entirely at the behest of Dumars?

Logical connections like saving Davidson money? Hey lets ignore how that trade would of benefit the team's cap situation even if trading 1st is hard to swallow. We all know how Joe loves his cap space to make terrible moves. The proof I have is HES the damn gm.

So you're saying that having more time would have helped Cleveland? That would have bought them a day, maybe 2. Plus, the trade was reportedly agreed to anyways. We don't have facts on the timeline of when Rip was informed. But the way that situation all played seems to indicate that Rip was informed after the outline of the trade was agreed upon by Detroit and Cleveland. At which time Rip declined a desire to have any involvement with Cleveland. It surely doesn't seem like Rip was in the loop and on the fence about what he was going to do, then ultimately decided to decline. Either way, an extra day or 2 likely would have made no difference at all. Rip seemed like he was not interested at all in such a situation, and he used what little leverage he had.

Teams can agree to extensions when a player has to report to complete a trade.

Right, because Karen Davidson sure seemed real keen on spending $ on the team at that particular point in time. And just so you know GM =/= the owner. Its pretty safe to assume that decisions that involve large sums of $ are layed on the owner's desk for approval or denial.

What? No one dumps salary at the deadline with the purpose of spending money right then and there. Not to mention the team sale was starting to roll on around this time.

Who do you think is more at fault for stupid deals, the basketball mind that should know what they're doing, or the person who approves deals that doesn't know best when it comes to basketball? Its not hard to see when someones being an apologist for Dumars.

[thesack12]

Agreeing to the trade would of still bought time for Cleveland to negotiate a buyout. All Dumars did in that situation was give Rip leverage when he was told about the trade.



Logical connections like saving Davidson money? Hey lets ignore how that trade would of benefit the team's cap situation even if trading 1st is hard to swallow. We all know how Joe loves his cap space to make terrible moves. The proof I have is HES the damn gm.

So you're saying that having more time would have helped Cleveland? That would have bought them a day, maybe 2. Plus, the trade was reportedly agreed to anyways. We don't have facts on the timeline of when Rip was informed. But the way that situation all played seems to indicate that Rip was informed after the outline of the trade was agreed upon by Detroit and Cleveland. At which time Rip declined a desire to have any involvement with Cleveland. It surely doesn't seem like Rip was in the loop and on the fence about what he was going to do, then ultimately decided to decline. Either way, an extra day or 2 likely would have made no difference at all. Rip seemed like he was not interested at all in such a situation, and he used what little leverage he had.

Teams can agree to extensions when a player has to report to complete a trade.

Right, because Karen Davidson sure seemed real keen on spending $ on the team at that particular point in time. And just so you know GM =/= the owner. Its pretty safe to assume that decisions that involve large sums of $ are layed on the owner's desk for approval or denial.

What? No one dumps salary at the deadline with the purpose of spending money right then and there. Not to mention the team sale was starting to roll on around this time.

Who do you think is more at fault for stupid deals, the basketball mind that should know what they're doing, or the person who approves deals that doesn't know best when it comes to basketball? Its not hard to see when someones being an apologist for Dumars.

Whats the point, if Rip was unreceptive to the situation? Which sure seems to be the case.

Exactly, thats my point. The proposed Rip trade was a financial move orchestrated by KD, in order to cut costs for prospective buyers. The cap space created by such a move would have been burning a hole in Dumars pocket, like you mentioned, but he would not have been allowed to use it anyways.

Call me whatever hell you feel like, I don't care. The theme of this thread is who is at fault for Detroit losing its 2014 1st round pick. On that point, Gores is much more to blame here because he refused to use Detroit's amnesty clause. If the amnesty was used, Detroit is in a better position moving forward.

[Sheeeeed]

Exactly, thats my point. The proposed Rip trade was a financial move orchestrated by KD, in order to cut costs for prospective buyers.

Yet the team was sold without Rip getting moved beforehand. You still have no proof KD was in Dumars ear to seek out the move. I guess KD is a fault too for Dumars not doing the Prince for Butler + a 1st deal even though she would of got money back from Butler's insured contract.

The cap space created by such a move would have been burning a hole in Dumars pocket, like you mentioned, but he would not have been allowed to use it anyways.

Gores was the owner by the time Dumars could use the cap space, so your point is moot.

Call me whatever hell you feel like, I don't care. The theme of this thread is who is at fault for Detroit losing its 2014 1st round pick. On that point, Gores is much more to blame here because he refused to use Detroit's amnesty clause. If the amnesty was used, Detroit is in a better position moving forward.

I doubt Gores put a gun to Dumars head told him to give up a 1st. This wouldn't be an issue if Dumars hadn't signed BG when he already had Rip too.

[Pharaoh]

So if Gores approves every single move why don't we give him credit for Drummond & Monroe?

And credit Mr D for our championship?

After all, according to some Joe D just did the leg work, the owner is guy deciding who gets drafted, trades & signed.

IF you don't blame the President of Basketball Operations for making poor choices you can't give him credit for good ones

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[thesack12]

Exactly, thats my point. The proposed Rip trade was a financial move orchestrated by KD, in order to cut costs for prospective buyers.

Yet the team was sold without Rip getting moved beforehand. You still have no proof KD was in Dumars ear to seek out the move. I guess KD is a fault too for Dumars not doing the Prince for Butler + a 1st deal even though she would of got money back from Butler's insured contract.

The cap space created by such a move would have been burning a hole in Dumars pocket, like you mentioned, but he would not have been allowed to use it anyways.

Gores was the owner by the time Dumars could use the cap space, so your point is moot.

Call me whatever hell you feel like, I don't care. The theme of this thread is who is at fault for Detroit losing its 2014 1st round pick. On that point, Gores is much more to blame here because he refused to use Detroit's amnesty clause. If the amnesty was used, Detroit is in a better position moving forward.

I doubt Gores put a gun to Dumars head told him to give up a 1st. This wouldn't be an issue if Dumars hadn't signed BG when he already had Rip too.[/quote]

Rip was not moved, he was bought out. That buyout saved Detroit $ anyways. I also like how you continue to say I have no proof, yet you have yet to come up with any proving everything was on Dumars. Its not hard at all to envision that saving money and not spending money was KD's mindset.

You are putting the cart before the horse big time here. At that time, the team was obviously for sale. How did Dumars know that he was even going to be retained, in order to utilize the cap space you claim was the reasoning behind orchestrating that deal? Furthermore, the sale of the team was slogging along at snails pace at the time, nobody knew how long it was going to be before a new owner was found.

I also doubt that Dumars didn't explain the amnesty clause to Gores and make him aware that Detroit still had it as an available option. Dumars being the basketball guy, knew that keeping all basketball related assets was in the best interest of the team.

Its pretty obvious to me that the proposed Rip trade was clearly ownership driven. If you don't agree thats fine, you're allowed to.

As for Detroit losing its 2014 1st round pick, shell out blame however you like. But the fact of the matter is Gores had an opportunity to open up the same cap space created by the BG trade without sacrificing an asset, and he simply chose not to do so. That is on him.

[thesack12]

So if Gores approves every single move why don't we give him credit for Drummond & Monroe?

And credit Mr D for our championship?

After all, according to some Joe D just did the leg work, the owner is guy deciding who gets drafted, trades & signed.

IF you don't blame the President of Basketball Operations for making poor choices you can't give him credit for good ones

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Mr.D deserves huge credit for all 3 ships. In my personal opinion, the day he died was the day Detroit Pistons basketball fell off a cliff. That guy was simply great.

As for the POBA, thats my main issue with a lot of the stance towards Dumars these days. People have short term memories. They blast him for everything he has screwed up in recent years, yet accuse him of simply being lucky with all of his successes. Have to take the good with the bad.

Yes, Dumars was very bad the last few seasons. But excuse me, if I don't pile on the guy at every opportunity. I am capable of remembering past 4 or 5 years. So I appreciate all the success he has brought Detroit. Overall, Dumars tenure in the organization was a resounding success.

As for Gores, he needs to show me something before I latch on to him. I give him immense kudos for going out and landing SVG. I'm very excited about that. But, I need to see more.

[Sheeeeed]

Rip was not moved, he was bought out. That buyout saved Detroit $ anyways.

No **** he didn't get moved, he was bought out under Gores. Didn't save KD any money now did it?

I also like how you continue to say I have no proof, yet you have yet to come up with any proving everything was on Dumars. Its not hard at all to envision that saving money and not spending money was KD's mindset.

If KD was so hell bent of saving money, why wasn't the deal with Dallas done for Prince?

You are putting the cart before the horse big time here. At that time, the team was obviously for sale. How did Dumars know that he was even going to be retained, in order to utilize the cap space you claim was the reasoning behind orchestrating that deal? Furthermore, the sale of the team was slogging along at snails pace at the time, nobody knew how long it was going to be before a new owner was found.

Oh so Dumars shouldn't do his job, and help the team because the uncertainty surrounding the ownership? Please

I also doubt that Dumars didn't explain the amnesty clause to Gores and make him aware that Detroit still had it as an available option. Dumars being the basketball guy, knew that keeping all basketball related assets was in the best interest of the team.

Its pretty obvious to me that the proposed Rip trade was clearly ownership driven. If you don't agree thats fine, you're allowed to.

...and yet the Prince trade for Butler and a 1st didn't happen which clearly would of saved KD money through an insured contract.

As for Detroit losing its 2014 1st round pick, shell out blame however you like. But the fact of the matter is Gores had an opportunity to open up the same cap space created by the BG trade without sacrificing an asset, and he simply chose not to do so. That is on him.

Owners don't like paying someone to go away. Heres the thing, that pick wasn't given up because Dumars and Gores thought they didn't need a top 10 pick. Dumars thought he had a playoff team in the making, and the Bobcats would eventually get a pick out of the lottery. Gores isn't a talent evaluator, that's on Dumars. Not using the amnesty isn't a open invitation to give up draft picks.

[thesack12]

^ 20 teams/owners utilized their amnesty clause after the new CBA was consummated. Lets not act like teams were allergic to it.

But I'm over re-hashing the same topic in a slightly different manner for the 13th time. So feel free to get the last word.

[Pharaoh]

^ 20 teams/owners utilized their amnesty clause after the new CBA was consummated. Lets not act like teams were allergic to it.

But I'm over re-hashing the same topic in a slightly different manner for the 13th time. So feel free to get the last word.

Of the 10 teams that didn't use it how many of them actually had reason to use it?

Anyway, here's what I believe happened:

Gores takes over from KD...tells Joe he's got 3-5 years to turn this thing around.

Joe makes moves to clean up the cap...buy out of Rip, trade if BG...AND plan on using the amnesty on CV-DNP....

Then Memphis & Toronto call...we can get Calderon for Prince. Joe agrees as Prince goes to a better team AND we get the cap space Joe was looking for.

IMHO THAT is why we didn't use the amnesty.

It's easy to sit back and judge ONE move at a time in isolation. But that's not what we should be doing.

We should be looking at the bigger picture when judging transactions...but that's difficult because no one knows exactly what the plan is/was at the time

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