Stanley Johnson should start over KCP not Morris.

[Cowology]

This is a weird argument to have.

I agree defense is more important than offense, even in the modern era... but Hardens impact should still outweigh KCP's. Totally pulling these numbers out of my ass, but let's say we give up 5 more points but score 10 more that is still a net win for us. Harden should be the better +/- player due to the disparity in talent.

That said... I don't think he's a great fit on this team because he and Reggie are both ball dominant and do a lot of the same things. We clearly need a secondary ball handler (Stanley eventually??), not another ball dominant primary. You bring in Harden and now we need to swap out Reggie for more of a Derek Fisher type at the 1.

But a blanket statement that Harden is crap and KCP better? Naw.

[zeebneeb]

This is a weird argument to have.

I agree defense is more important than offense, even in the modern era... but Hardens impact should still outweigh KCP's. Totally pulling these numbers out of my ass, but let's say we give up 5 more points but score 10 more that is still a net win for us. Harden should be the better +/- player due to the disparity in talent.

That said... I don't think he's a great fit on this team because he and Reggie are both ball dominant and do a lot of the same things. We clearly need a secondary ball handler (Stanley eventually??), not another ball dominant primary. You bring in Harden and now we need to swap out Reggie for more of a Derek Fisher type at the 1.

But a blanket statement that Harden is crap and KCP better? Naw.

Here's the thing. Harden is epitome of garbage ball to me. He plays exactly the way I hate. No defense, strike that. Doesn't even care about defense. Doesn't drive the lane to score or pass but to draw a foul every single time. Ball dominant to the point of insanity, and only starts passing when he's having a horrible night and can't get any calls. Off the court he parties until 3 hours before game time, hurting his team in the process.

That may skew my take on Harden as I despise players of his ilk, as does the fact that Pope is my favorite Piston player right now. I love his game he is just a pitbull on defense and I love that.

I firmly believe a damn good defender, and a damn good teammate will always trump players like Harden. I would trade Pope for a myriad of players around the league without hesitation. Harden is not one of them.

[DBC10]

I just have zero respect for Harden. None. He doesn't play the game the right way, he's a terrible teammate and is a chucker of epic perportions.

Terrible team player that has been given the green light to do whatever he wants and I believe history will be on my side.

Yeah trade Pope and watch our defense turn to absolute crap. Great idea.

You're completely right of course. Harden plays zero defense and is absolutely terrible this year to start, it's almost like Tracy McGrady in HOU all over again, where he just doesn't give a damn and watches his team fall apart.

[Spider156]

Umm I would love Harden to start a SF for us. You guys crazy? Jackson and Harden can play together with KCP. That's the best backcourt with Drummond in the middle. RIP Eastern Conference

[Todd3]

I typed up a longer response to this, but it won't go over well, so here's the short version:

You're stating the obvious, and ignoring additional facts that don't fit your narrative. I think your goalposts are completely out of the stadium at this point.

I've been stating the obvious from the beginning yet you keep arguing, and I am not even sure what your argument is at this point as you have resigned to generalities and cliches.

The Pistons need better shooters. Better shooters draw more attention than bad ones. You want to keep arguing this go ahead. By your logic we might as well bring Josh Smith and Monroe back and spot them up for 3.

I'm done with this, and with you in general, because abrasive, extreme, dogmatic arguments are stupid.

Reread the thread. Reread what I've said. Reread what you've posted. It's all basic stuff. Heck, you explained it yourself if you'd just read what you posted.

Defenses adjust to the situation -- hey, that's you stating the obvious! If you think we're going to acquire shooters on the wings that have the same impact as Drummond on the interior, you're dreaming. Teams are always going to sag on Drummond because he'll absolutely wreck a team with nothing but single coverage. Good defenders can remain aware of shooters while still helping or showing help. That's LeBron. Bad defenders do stupid things regardless of the situation. That's Love. That's JR.

Your picture didn't illustrate anything useful, your argument is obvious, and your obnoxious attempt to put words in my mouth with extreme statements I didn't make is pathetic. Is that clear enough?

You are clueless man. Elite bigs command attention inside. Elite shooters command attention out. If you don't think we are capable of acquiring any elite shooters, that is one thing, but to suggest they wouldn't create more space for Drummond inside if we could is flat out wrong. And continuing to use the most athletic perimeter defender of all time as your argument for defenders being able to sag off elite shooters and recover in time is a joke. The majority of perimeter defenders don't have the luxury of giving that much space to great shooters, therefore have to play them closer to avoid not being able to recover and giving up 3s. The closer to shooters, the further from paint, the more space for Drummond. This isn't complicated stuff.

[Todd3]

I typed up a longer response to this, but it won't go over well, so here's the short version:

You're stating the obvious, and ignoring additional facts that don't fit your narrative. I think your goalposts are completely out of the stadium at this point.

I've been stating the obvious from the beginning yet you keep arguing, and I am not even sure what your argument is at this point as you have resigned to generalities and cliches.

The Pistons need better shooters. Better shooters draw more attention than bad ones. You want to keep arguing this go ahead. By your logic we might as well bring Josh Smith and Monroe back and spot them up for 3.

I think he's saying they sag off because they're fast enough to recover and contest the shot anyway. Not 100% sure, but that's what I got out of it

That is what he is saying but using LeBron (the most athletic player of all time) as example is the extreme not norm. And what I am saying is that when guys get hot from 3, defenders don't still sag off them that much (LeBron or anyone) because they become fearful of not being able to recover in time, and because you want to be up in them bumping off the ball to try and disrupt their rhythm. You don't just let a hot shooter sit comfortably at the 3 pt line. But it isn't just the physical aspect. If Lebron is sagging off a hot shooter and turns for a second towards the paint, by the time he looks back his man is already shooting and its too late for him to recover, no matter how athletic he is.

[Phenomenonsense]

Spoiler:

He currently ranks 23rd in 3pt % among qualifying SGs. If he got his % back up to the .345 from last year, he would rank 21st - one spot behind Klay Thompson (who is currently shooting .364 and 22nd).

That shows just how many great shooters there actually are in the league today, and that it isn't unrealistic to get a better-than-34% SG. To just accept mediocrity makes no sense to me. I think your standards are too low.

We are 6-5 so obviously he is serviceable for now, but just imagine how much better we could be if we got 40% 3pt shooting from that spot every night instead.

2 guys I think could be available for cheap are Hollis Thompson (44% on 5 per game) and Nick Young (43% on 5 per game). Both can probably be had for 2nd rd picks.

Its not about hating on KCP either. Its about trying to make the team the best it can be, and if there are better shooters available that could make the offense/team better, we should always be exploring all options to get better (at any position)

My premise is believing that Caldwell-Pope will develop into an above-average shooter from deep. That wouldn't be mediocre, at least not in my dictionary. Guys like Thompson and Young might be better in that area than Kentavious but that's the only one. The dropoff on defense and everything else would negate that gain and then some.

I wouldn't mind Hollis being brought in to come off the bench (in much the same role as Meeks had/has) but he wouldn't be a major factor in the rotation. Nick probably has too much money left on his deal for the Pistons. A bit over $5 million a year in this cap era isn't bad, but they're already over the cap and would have to send someone else out.

Here is an illustration of what I'm getting at:

Look how much Smith and Lebron are sagging off KCP/Morris in the corners in the first pic because they don't respect their 3s.

Then look how much spacing we would enjoy if we had +40% shooters in the corner instead, and they had to stay on them at all times.

The second pic is how its supposed to look. Dre and Reggie would have the whole paint to themselves, and this offense would be damn near unstoppable if we got that kind of spacing every possession.



I get what you mean about KCPs importance to the defense, but I think you always want to build around what you have potential to be special at. When we had Ben Wallace, the focus was on building an all time great defense around him. You aren't going to surround Ben with shooters and try to win with offense. Looking at what this team has potential to be special at, duplicating another all time great defense is probably not happening. Ben was a once in a generation defender. Drummond is getting better every year on defense, but that isn't what makes him special. Its his rebounding and pick and roll game. Same goes for Jackson, not his defense. So if that is who we are building around, and they have potential to be an unstoppable pick and roll duo with the right personnel, then I think it only makes sense to go all in on that end, put the best shooters you can around them and try to build an all time great offense.

Of course I am talking longterm and don't expect Hollis or Young to get us there, but I think it would be a start in the right direction, and our guys wouldn't have to wear themselves out on defense just to win every night because of an average offense.

I think you're over estimating. JR Smith is always going to be sagging in because he is the weak side defender. It's his job to sag in a bit due to how long it takes to swing the ball. Lebron is athletic enough to always sag that much. Basically the best shooters might buy is a few more inches on the weak side.

[Todd3]

Spoiler:

My premise is believing that Caldwell-Pope will develop into an above-average shooter from deep. That wouldn't be mediocre, at least not in my dictionary. Guys like Thompson and Young might be better in that area than Kentavious but that's the only one. The dropoff on defense and everything else would negate that gain and then some.

I wouldn't mind Hollis being brought in to come off the bench (in much the same role as Meeks had/has) but he wouldn't be a major factor in the rotation. Nick probably has too much money left on his deal for the Pistons. A bit over $5 million a year in this cap era isn't bad, but they're already over the cap and would have to send someone else out.

Here is an illustration of what I'm getting at:

Look how much Smith and Lebron are sagging off KCP/Morris in the corners in the first pic because they don't respect their 3s.

Then look how much spacing we would enjoy if we had +40% shooters in the corner instead, and they had to stay on them at all times.

The second pic is how its supposed to look. Dre and Reggie would have the whole paint to themselves, and this offense would be damn near unstoppable if we got that kind of spacing every possession.



I get what you mean about KCPs importance to the defense, but I think you always want to build around what you have potential to be special at. When we had Ben Wallace, the focus was on building an all time great defense around him. You aren't going to surround Ben with shooters and try to win with offense. Looking at what this team has potential to be special at, duplicating another all time great defense is probably not happening. Ben was a once in a generation defender. Drummond is getting better every year on defense, but that isn't what makes him special. Its his rebounding and pick and roll game. Same goes for Jackson, not his defense. So if that is who we are building around, and they have potential to be an unstoppable pick and roll duo with the right personnel, then I think it only makes sense to go all in on that end, put the best shooters you can around them and try to build an all time great offense.

Of course I am talking longterm and don't expect Hollis or Young to get us there, but I think it would be a start in the right direction, and our guys wouldn't have to wear themselves out on defense just to win every night because of an average offense.

I think you're over estimating. JR Smith is always going to be sagging in because he is the weak side defender. It's his job to sag in a bit due to how long it takes to swing the ball. Lebron is athletic enough to always sag that much. Basically the best shooters might buy is a few more inches on the weak side.

The ball was already on its way to the weak side and he was nowhere near KCP. He was sagging off him that much because he respected Ersan's shot more.

As we saw tonight, they left KCP open a few times and dared him to shoot and he made them pay. After the 3rd triple they were all up on him afterwards. If he can start doing that more consistently, they wont' be sagging off him this much in the future.

[Spider156]

Stanley needs to start at SF with Morris at PF. SVG tried it during the preseason but we won with Ilyasova at PF and he stayed with that. I think it's time to switch it up. It'll make a difference in our offensive flow. Stanley plays better with the starting unit and i think Ilyasova could play better off the bench. Jennings needs to come back already.

[WeNeverLeftAZ]

I agree. His confidence is at a low. He is out there with Tolliver shooting anything he can. BJ coming back could lift SJ.