Game 23: Detroit Pistons (12-10) vs. Memphis Grizzlies (12-10) - 7:30 PM ET

[mattao313]

How are people blaming this on KCP? Ersan got rekt all night. He couldn't even rebound the ball over a guy that can't jump. Dre can't even contest a shot cause if he does no one will rebound the ball.

It's not just about this game (which was more about a flukey play than any one player). It's about fixing a season long problem so it doesn't keep happening. The odds of KCP going 1-6 from 3 again are a lot greater than Ersan getting owned like that at PF.

Ersan has been one of our best players all year and rarely is his position costing us games. Zach Randolph does that to every PF and is a great rebounder, and we only gave up 90 pts before that heave so this wasn't because of defense. It was because we only scored 92 pts again which has been a common theme all year in our L's. So I'm more apt to blame the guy who has been an offensive liability all season (and was again last night), than the guy who has one bad game and is usually our best shooter.

We got out rebounded even SVG said you can't give up that many offense rebounds like we did. Zach is not that good anymore he put up 21 and 16 on him thats terrible.
Our rebounding and defense is what been win us games not the offense. The defense was good but when no one can rebound especially your starting PF thats a huge problem. KCP needs to get better on offense yeah but he is important to the team on defense and thats how we are winning games right now.

[Todd3]

How are people blaming this on KCP? Ersan got rekt all night. He couldn't even rebound the ball over a guy that can't jump. Dre can't even contest a shot cause if he does no one will rebound the ball.

It's not just about this game (which was more about a flukey play than any one player). It's about fixing a season long problem so it doesn't keep happening. The odds of KCP going 1-6 from 3 again are a lot greater than Ersan getting owned like that at PF.

Ersan has been one of our best players all year and rarely is his position costing us games. Zach Randolph does that to every PF and is a great rebounder, and we only gave up 90 pts before that heave so this wasn't because of defense. It was because we only scored 92 pts again which has been a common theme all year in our L's. So I'm more apt to blame the guy who has been an offensive liability all season (and was again last night), than the guy who has one bad game and is usually our best shooter.

We got out rebounded even SVG said you can't give up that many offense rebounds like we did. Zach is not that good anymore he put up 21 and 16 on him thats terrible.
Our rebounding and defense is what been win us games not the offense. The defense was good but when no one can rebound especially your starting PF thats a huge problem. KCP needs to get better on offense yeah but he is important to the team on defense and thats how we are winning games right now.

I think Stan's priorities and expectations are a little off there personally. We had 15 rebs (9 dreb) in the 4th. For reference, CHA is the best 4th qtr rebounding team in the league avg 12.2 per game total and 9.5 dreb. We avg 11.9 total and 8.5 dreb in the 4th. So our rebounding in the 4th last night was actually at a league best level and better than we normally are.

However, we are 30th in FG% and 3FG% at 37% and 26% respectively, and 25th in pts scored in the 4th at 23 per game. And the 18 pts on 35% FG and 22% 3FG we had in the 4th last night was even worse than that.

So I have a hard time buying our problem was more rebounding than offense. If you have to rebound at an all time great level to make up for a league worst offense, then its not the rebounding that's the problem, its the offense. In other words, when you are already getting 15 rebs in the qtr, there isn't much room for improvement there. Can't blame a game on not getting 20 rebs in a qtr. That's just unrealistic expectations. Offense is where there is realistic room for improvement and that is what should be the focus.

Yes we are winning with defense and rebounding, but when you are top 5 in both you should have a better record than 12-11. We aren't because of our offense and KCP is one of the main problems. I don't think he is as important to our defense as people think either. Drummond is the main reason we are an elite defense/rebounding team. He is the catalyst, not KCP. I believe we could put any solid defender at SG and still be a great defense. Being top 5 in defense and bottom 5 in offense is why we are a .500 team. The goal is to be top 10 in both. So if we can trade some defense at SG and still be top 10, but become a top 10 offense too as a result, we become a better team overall in the end. That's what we should be focused on instead of having to rely on rebounding at historic levels to win.

[mattao313]

It's not just about this game (which was more about a flukey play than any one player). It's about fixing a season long problem so it doesn't keep happening. The odds of KCP going 1-6 from 3 again are a lot greater than Ersan getting owned like that at PF.

Ersan has been one of our best players all year and rarely is his position costing us games. Zach Randolph does that to every PF and is a great rebounder, and we only gave up 90 pts before that heave so this wasn't because of defense. It was because we only scored 92 pts again which has been a common theme all year in our L's. So I'm more apt to blame the guy who has been an offensive liability all season (and was again last night), than the guy who has one bad game and is usually our best shooter.

We got out rebounded even SVG said you can't give up that many offense rebounds like we did. Zach is not that good anymore he put up 21 and 16 on him thats terrible.
Our rebounding and defense is what been win us games not the offense. The defense was good but when no one can rebound especially your starting PF thats a huge problem. KCP needs to get better on offense yeah but he is important to the team on defense and thats how we are winning games right now.

I think Stan's priorities and expectations are a little off there personally. We had 15 rebs (9 dreb) in the 4th. For reference, CHA is the best 4th qtr rebounding team in the league avg 12.2 per game total and 9.5 dreb. We avg 11.9 total and 8.5 dreb in the 4th. So our rebounding in the 4th last night was actually at a league best level and better than we normally are.

However, we are 30th in FG% and 3FG% at 37% and 26% respectively, and 25th in pts scored in the 4th at 23 per game. And the 18 pts on 35% FG and 22% 3FG we had in the 4th last night was even worse than that.

So I have a hard time buying our problem was more rebounding than offense. If you have to rebound at an all time great level to make up for a league worst offense, then its not the rebounding that's the problem, its the offense. In other words, when you are already getting 15 rebs in the qtr, there isn't much room for improvement there. Can't blame a game on not getting 20 rebs in a qtr. That's just unrealistic expectations. Offense is where there is realistic room for improvement and that is what should be the focus.

Yes we are winning with defense and rebounding, but when you are top 5 in both you should have a better record than 12-11. We aren't because of our offense and KCP is one of the main problems. I don't think he is as important to our defense as people think either. Drummond is the main reason we are an elite defense/rebounding team. He is the catalyst, not KCP. I believe we could put any solid defender at SG and still be a great defense. Being top 5 in defense and bottom 5 in offense is why we are a .500 team. The goal is to be top 10 in both. So if we can trade some defense at SG and still be top 10, but become a top 10 offense too as a result, we become a better team overall in the end. That's what we should be focused on instead of having to rely on rebounding at historic levels to win.

Imo Drummond is not why our defense is good. while he has improved he gets a lot of help from KCP and Morris and to a smaller degree RJ. Dre still make lots of mistakes on D. I haven't looked at the stats but I think our perimeter defensive is way they are succeeding on defense.
And KCP is not the sole reason we don't have a good offense. Look at all the other 3pt shooting % of the players.

[mattao313]

I also am waiting to wake up from this Aron Baynes nightmare at any time. As most of you have said, the guy has hands of just the most solid, solid stone and watching him tip the ball around only to not come up with it and miss easy looks over and over makes me cringe so violently. He will fill that Joel Anthony role perfectly next year and I am really excited for the obvious upgrade that needs to be made there.

Easily one of the most frustrating Pistons I've ever watched. It's time for Stan to admit that was a bad signing and give Anthony those minutes. Joel is a better securer of rebounds and rim protector, and probably even a better finisher on offense too. I can't think of one positive thing that Baynes contributes to this team.

Imo he hasn't been that bad. But the bench just doesn't work well no one can score and Blake is not a good fit in SVG system. We need some one who can run and score in the pnr. Jennings would be perfect but with him coming off a potential career ender you can't really depend on him.

[Neptune]

I just finished watching this game. Good shot by Barnes man. I respect this guy after the whole Fisher incident!

We're playing that .500 ball like I expected. I'm not worried about this loss.

[Spider156]

I just finished watching this game. Good shot by Barnes man. I respect this guy after the whole Fisher incident!

We're playing that .500 ball like I expected. I'm not worried about this loss.

Trouble is I'm not sure if 500 ball is enough to make the Playoffs in the East anymore. Although Houston is catching up and getting better. Still a long season ahead. It's up in the air, other teams will also lose by buzzer beaters and we might win some like that too. You never know. If Jennings and Drummond did it last season, why not again? So it's a give and take. What I was worried about was the rebounding. We didn't play our basketball the whole game. Lucky shot. But it's better to be lucky than good.

It's like the Michigan loss to MSU. If we beat OSU, then the loss would've been huge. But we didn't, so it didn't sting as bad.

[Todd3]

We got out rebounded even SVG said you can't give up that many offense rebounds like we did. Zach is not that good anymore he put up 21 and 16 on him thats terrible.
Our rebounding and defense is what been win us games not the offense. The defense was good but when no one can rebound especially your starting PF thats a huge problem. KCP needs to get better on offense yeah but he is important to the team on defense and thats how we are winning games right now.

I think Stan's priorities and expectations are a little off there personally. We had 15 rebs (9 dreb) in the 4th. For reference, CHA is the best 4th qtr rebounding team in the league avg 12.2 per game total and 9.5 dreb. We avg 11.9 total and 8.5 dreb in the 4th. So our rebounding in the 4th last night was actually at a league best level and better than we normally are.

However, we are 30th in FG% and 3FG% at 37% and 26% respectively, and 25th in pts scored in the 4th at 23 per game. And the 18 pts on 35% FG and 22% 3FG we had in the 4th last night was even worse than that.

So I have a hard time buying our problem was more rebounding than offense. If you have to rebound at an all time great level to make up for a league worst offense, then its not the rebounding that's the problem, its the offense. In other words, when you are already getting 15 rebs in the qtr, there isn't much room for improvement there. Can't blame a game on not getting 20 rebs in a qtr. That's just unrealistic expectations. Offense is where there is realistic room for improvement and that is what should be the focus.

Yes we are winning with defense and rebounding, but when you are top 5 in both you should have a better record than 12-11. We aren't because of our offense and KCP is one of the main problems. I don't think he is as important to our defense as people think either. Drummond is the main reason we are an elite defense/rebounding team. He is the catalyst, not KCP. I believe we could put any solid defender at SG and still be a great defense. Being top 5 in defense and bottom 5 in offense is why we are a .500 team. The goal is to be top 10 in both. So if we can trade some defense at SG and still be top 10, but become a top 10 offense too as a result, we become a better team overall in the end. That's what we should be focused on instead of having to rely on rebounding at historic levels to win.

Imo Drummond is not why our defense is good. while he has improved he gets a lot of help from KCP and Morris and to a smaller degree RJ. Dre still make lots of mistakes on D. I haven't looked at the stats but I think our perimeter defensive is way they are succeeding on defense.
And KCP is not the sole reason we don't have a good offense. Look at all the other 3pt shooting % of the players.

It's Drummond's presence in the paint.. The difference defensively between when Dre or Baynes are in the game at C is a lot bigger than when KCP or SJ are in at SG. KCP is a great defender, but his presence individually just doesn't have that great of an effect on the overall team defense to make up for his liability on offense, imo.

The stats may disagree. I haven't checked, but just watching KCP play with the bench, the 2nd unit doesn't suddenly become great defensively because of him (which is what you expect from a truly elite defensive player). Drummond makes others around him better defensively no matter who is around him because of his ability to man the paint by himself. So to me that makes him the more important guy defensively.

KCP isn't the only one not shooting well from 3, but he is the one taking the most on the team despite only making 28%, and that is the problem. His 12 FGA's overall at .399 FG is a problem. Can't have a player doing that and expect to have an efficient offense. He isn't the only problem but it's the most obvious one right now - and easiest to correct. Just stop shooting so much. He hasn't proven capable of that type of discipline though.

[mattao313]

I think Stan's priorities and expectations are a little off there personally. We had 15 rebs (9 dreb) in the 4th. For reference, CHA is the best 4th qtr rebounding team in the league avg 12.2 per game total and 9.5 dreb. We avg 11.9 total and 8.5 dreb in the 4th. So our rebounding in the 4th last night was actually at a league best level and better than we normally are.

However, we are 30th in FG% and 3FG% at 37% and 26% respectively, and 25th in pts scored in the 4th at 23 per game. And the 18 pts on 35% FG and 22% 3FG we had in the 4th last night was even worse than that.

So I have a hard time buying our problem was more rebounding than offense. If you have to rebound at an all time great level to make up for a league worst offense, then its not the rebounding that's the problem, its the offense. In other words, when you are already getting 15 rebs in the qtr, there isn't much room for improvement there. Can't blame a game on not getting 20 rebs in a qtr. That's just unrealistic expectations. Offense is where there is realistic room for improvement and that is what should be the focus.

Yes we are winning with defense and rebounding, but when you are top 5 in both you should have a better record than 12-11. We aren't because of our offense and KCP is one of the main problems. I don't think he is as important to our defense as people think either. Drummond is the main reason we are an elite defense/rebounding team. He is the catalyst, not KCP. I believe we could put any solid defender at SG and still be a great defense. Being top 5 in defense and bottom 5 in offense is why we are a .500 team. The goal is to be top 10 in both. So if we can trade some defense at SG and still be top 10, but become a top 10 offense too as a result, we become a better team overall in the end. That's what we should be focused on instead of having to rely on rebounding at historic levels to win.

Imo Drummond is not why our defense is good. while he has improved he gets a lot of help from KCP and Morris and to a smaller degree RJ. Dre still make lots of mistakes on D. I haven't looked at the stats but I think our perimeter defensive is way they are succeeding on defense.
And KCP is not the sole reason we don't have a good offense. Look at all the other 3pt shooting % of the players.

It's Drummond's presence in the paint.. The difference defensively between when Dre or Baynes are in the game at C is a lot bigger than when KCP or SJ are in at SG. KCP is a great defender, but his presence individually just doesn't have that great of an effect on the overall team defense to make up for his liability on offense, imo.

The stats may disagree. I haven't checked, but just watching KCP play with the bench, the 2nd unit doesn't suddenly become great defensively because of him (which is what you expect from a truly elite defensive player). Drummond makes others around him better defensively no matter who is around him because of his ability to man the paint by himself. So to me that makes him the more important guy defensively.

KCP isn't the only one not shooting well from 3, but he is the one taking the most on the team despite only making 28%, and that is the problem. His 12 FGA's overall at .399 FG is a problem. Can't have a player doing that and expect to have an efficient offense. He isn't the only problem but it's the most obvious one right now - and easiest to correct. Just stop shooting so much. He hasn't proven capable of that type of discipline though.

Not really. Dre doesn't even contest a lot of shots and on pick and rolls drops back to force the mid range shot but a lot of the time he goes back to far and it becomes a wide open shot. Plus his man defense is still not very good. I think the defense is good because they can switch on the pnr a lot especially when ersans not in. Morris is shooting bad as well and ersan can't finish at the rim. I just don't think you can blame KCP for the offense when like half our players are shooting below their average this year.

[Pistons888]

Imo Drummond is not why our defense is good. while he has improved he gets a lot of help from KCP and Morris and to a smaller degree RJ. Dre still make lots of mistakes on D. I haven't looked at the stats but I think our perimeter defensive is way they are succeeding on defense.
And KCP is not the sole reason we don't have a good offense. Look at all the other 3pt shooting % of the players.

It's Drummond's presence in the paint.. The difference defensively between when Dre or Baynes are in the game at C is a lot bigger than when KCP or SJ are in at SG. KCP is a great defender, but his presence individually just doesn't have that great of an effect on the overall team defense to make up for his liability on offense, imo.

The stats may disagree. I haven't checked, but just watching KCP play with the bench, the 2nd unit doesn't suddenly become great defensively because of him (which is what you expect from a truly elite defensive player). Drummond makes others around him better defensively no matter who is around him because of his ability to man the paint by himself. So to me that makes him the more important guy defensively.

KCP isn't the only one not shooting well from 3, but he is the one taking the most on the team despite only making 28%, and that is the problem. His 12 FGA's overall at .399 FG is a problem. Can't have a player doing that and expect to have an efficient offense. He isn't the only problem but it's the most obvious one right now - and easiest to correct. Just stop shooting so much. He hasn't proven capable of that type of discipline though.

Not really. Dre doesn't even contest a lot of shots and on pick and rolls drops back to force the mid range shot but a lot of the time he goes back to far and it becomes a wide open shot. Plus his man defense is still not very good. I think the defense is good because they can switch on the pnr a lot especially when ersans not in. Morris is shooting bad as well and ersan can't finish at the rim. I just don't think you can blame KCP for the offense when like half our players are shooting below their average this year.

Morris has been one of our most reliable scorers this year. You can't even begin to argue that anyone has had a worse impact on our offense (starting wise) than KCP. I don't dislike him or anything. I WANT him to be great, as a fan of the team, and I want him to make open shots which is what he is not doing most of the time. He is holding back our offense. Period.

[Billl]

KCP is our best defender for his position on the squad. Drummond has a bigger overall impact because of his role defensively. That's just how it goes. Protecting the paint is just more of a game changer than sticking with your man on the perimeter.

KCP has been REALLY impressive getting around picks this year though. He's probably top 5 in the NBA in that aspect. Lots of times, it looks like he's using the pick better than the offensive player.

[mattao313]

KCP is our best defender for his position on the squad. Drummond has a bigger overall impact because of his role defensively. That's just how it goes. Protecting the paint is just more of a game changer than sticking with your man on the perimeter.

KCP has been REALLY impressive getting around picks this year though. He's probably top 5 in the NBA in that aspect. Lots of times, it looks like he's using the pick better than the offensive player.

But Dre is just playing his role on defense it's not like he is carrying the team.

[sfballa13]

I also am waiting to wake up from this Aron Baynes nightmare at any time. As most of you have said, the guy has hands of just the most solid, solid stone and watching him tip the ball around only to not come up with it and miss easy looks over and over makes me cringe so violently. He will fill that Joel Anthony role perfectly next year and I am really excited for the obvious upgrade that needs to be made there.

Easily one of the most frustrating Pistons I've ever watched. It's time for Stan to admit that was a bad signing and give Anthony those minutes. Joel is a better securer of rebounds and rim protector, and probably even a better finisher on offense too. I can't think of one positive thing that Baynes contributes to this team.

When you think that we could have had Biyombo instead of Baynes it makes the signing even worse.

Every single trade SVG has made has been great but every FA signing has been horrendous, Cartier Martin, Baynes, Meeks all horrible wastes of money

Biyombo is making 2.5M a year over 2 years and Baynes is making 6.5M a year over 3 years.

Biyombo would have come running at 5M a year and we still would have saved 3M

He is putting up 5 pts, 7 rebounds, 1 block in 21 minutes a game, exactly what we needed

[Pistons888]

I also am waiting to wake up from this Aron Baynes nightmare at any time. As most of you have said, the guy has hands of just the most solid, solid stone and watching him tip the ball around only to not come up with it and miss easy looks over and over makes me cringe so violently. He will fill that Joel Anthony role perfectly next year and I am really excited for the obvious upgrade that needs to be made there.

Easily one of the most frustrating Pistons I've ever watched. It's time for Stan to admit that was a bad signing and give Anthony those minutes. Joel is a better securer of rebounds and rim protector, and probably even a better finisher on offense too. I can't think of one positive thing that Baynes contributes to this team.

When you think that we could have had Biyombo instead of Baynes it makes the signing even worse.

Every single trade SVG has made has been great but every FA signing has been horrendous, Cartier Martin, Baynes, Meeks all horrible wastes of money

Biyombo is making 2.5M a year over 2 years and Baynes is making 6.5M a year over 3 years.

Biyombo would have come running at 5M a year and we still would have saved 3M

He is putting up 5 pts, 7 rebounds, 1 block in 21 minutes a game, exactly what we needed

I'm not even mad at Stan about it. He's smart enough to move on from his mistakes and if Baynes' play continues to be bad I know he will move on from it. He sat Cartier Martin pretty much all year and cut him with guaranteed money and I don't even look at Meeks as a bad signing.

[Todd3]

Easily one of the most frustrating Pistons I've ever watched. It's time for Stan to admit that was a bad signing and give Anthony those minutes. Joel is a better securer of rebounds and rim protector, and probably even a better finisher on offense too. I can't think of one positive thing that Baynes contributes to this team.

When you think that we could have had Biyombo instead of Baynes it makes the signing even worse.

Every single trade SVG has made has been great but every FA signing has been horrendous, Cartier Martin, Baynes, Meeks all horrible wastes of money

Biyombo is making 2.5M a year over 2 years and Baynes is making 6.5M a year over 3 years.

Biyombo would have come running at 5M a year and we still would have saved 3M

He is putting up 5 pts, 7 rebounds, 1 block in 21 minutes a game, exactly what we needed

I'm not even mad at Stan about it. He's smart enough to move on from his mistakes and if Baynes' play continues to be bad I know he will move on from it. He sat Cartier Martin pretty much all year and cut him with guaranteed money and I don't even look at Meeks as a bad signing.

yeah I'm not into crying over spilled milk either. Mistakes happen and you never know how a player is going to fit until they get in your system. All I care about is getting them corrected as soon as possible and not letting ego get in the way of what's best for the team. Biyombo's numbers may look good but doesn't mean he would be succeeding here. Baynes numbers looked good in SA too. A lot of these C's are able to thrive on other teams because they are in complimentary roles, but in Stan's system the C is the focal point and no guarantee Biyombo would've been good enough to succeed in that role any more than Baynes. Fortunately C's are always in demand so we should be able to eventually deal his contract, and his success with SA should still have some value around the league.

[Todd3]

KCP is our best defender for his position on the squad. Drummond has a bigger overall impact because of his role defensively. That's just how it goes. Protecting the paint is just more of a game changer than sticking with your man on the perimeter.

This. Dre's position has the ability to affect the entire opposing offense, whereas KCP at his best is only affecting one of five players. He can shutdown his man and your team still get dominated by the other 4 positions if you don't have a C to protect the paint. Conversely, you can give up 20 to a SG and still keep a team to 90 pts if you have a C in the paint making it difficult on the other 4 guys.

Great perimeter defenders are valuable when they can affect the game on both ends (like Jordan/Pippen or LeBron/Wade) or in niche roles off the bench like Lindsey on the '04 team. To me that is what KCP is - our Lindsey. He comes in and hounds his man 24/7 and can be really disruptive, but doesn't really do much else. Guys like that come off the bench on championship teams. If Jordan/Pippen were just great defenders, they wouldn't have won championships. Perimeter defense is necessary, but those are more offensive positions and its more important that your starting perimeters are able to score effectively than just guard.