What's the biggest reason Dre hasn't improved more defensively?

[Finn McCool]

More time, in this case. He relies on his athletic ability too much.

He has to rely on his athletic ability... his mental side of the game isn't too refined. Just look at his free throws... which I have been told repeatedly is 90+% mental.

IMHO, he lacks instincts. Seems as if he doesn't anticipate where offensive players are going to attack, dribble or drive. Not that I know for certain, but he may not trust himself to make good hard fouls when necessary, because he too often attracts them reaching, or picking up frustration fouls after getting a little contact on the offensive end.

Teams run pick n' roll because it works.

[Todd3]

Pistons need to hire Ben Wallace to coach him on defense. I do think Dre will improve on defense he has plenty of time to do so at age 22, but if Ben was there to coach him/mentor him i think he would improve much faster. I think he has the tools to become an elite defender who knows if it will happen tho.

Orrrrrrr.....orrrrrrrr we can hire Lindsey Hunter to teach our PGs how to stay in front of their damn man. When you have a leak you don't go buy a new bucket to replace the old one catching the water. You actually call a plumber to fix the source of the leak. If Andre has to constantly play 2 on 1 and try to decide if he should go for the block (and undoubtedly give up an offensive rebound if he misses the block) or stay glued to his man to take away the lob and hope the pg misses, he'll look bad at times.

Andre is an ok to good defender overall. He's just not the dynamite shot blocker people wish he were. Reggie is TERRIBLE on defense. If he was just good, this thread wouldn't even exist. Nobody is even asking for Lindsey Hunter D. I'd take Utah game Reggie, fighting through screens and actually going UNDER screens on non shooters.

This, Andre has improved on defense but when our PG's can't keep their man in front of them for 2 seconds he gets put in a bad place. SVG needs to improve his schemes both on the defense and offensive side of the court you can't just blame the players at this point.

yeah, I thought we were at our best defensively early in the year when we were sagging off ball handlers and conceding midrange jumpshots, opting to stop penetration instead. I don't know if it's the players or Stan changed the defense or what but we need to start doing that again. It's especially important vs BOS, as their whole offense is predicated on penetration.

Also need to have Dre concede the midrange jumpshots to his man too imo . Stan can't expect him to be up in his man at midrange and then whine he gets beat off the dribble at 6-11, 280lbs, and then have no one else ever rotate over to help protect the paint. Better to just have Dre stay by the paint and if a C beats us with the midrange jumpshots so be it, vs having the whole defense in scrambling chaos instead.

[Todd3]

Its not that I think he sucks defensively when I watch him play. I think at the moment he is average compared to other starting centers. But those stats suggest he is already elite. Would you call him elite defender right now?

I think he's good enough to anchor a top 10 defense. Whether you consider that elite or not is up to you.

I don't consider him a defensive C like a Ben Wallace though. I think he's Moses Malone 2.0 (which is even better), and I think when people realize that they might stop nitpicking over defense.

Can an active player be inducted into HOF? If so, when is Dre getting inducted? Why hasn't he already???

5 yrs after he retires

[RipCity32]

Whomever has said Andre is anchoring a top 10 defense is just flat out wrong imo. KCP and Marcus Morris are BY FAR the anchors of the defense. And it's not even close.

[Blkbrd671]

Are you suggesting that Dre is an elite defensive player?

This ought to be interesting...

This is interesting. Why does he look so much worse than his defensive stats suggest? Only thing that comes to mind is that defensive statistics in general are flawed.

Or the people complaining don't know what they're watching... have unrealistic expectations...blame the wrong player for others mistakes...underrate his opponents...

That, or the stats that feature all of the leagues best defenders are suddenly flawed because Drummond is on it

I tend to go with the former, personally.

Hold up

2nd in defensive win shares, 1st in defensive rebounds, 1st in steals among Centers, 7th

DWS is a horrible stat to use in this context :

1.) DWS has a team defensive component, ie not all Dre
2.) DWS puts a ton of value on defensive rebounds


If any of you think Dre is a "defensive anchor" , your looking strictly at stats and selective film. Dre's defensive technique is poor, he's always leaving his feet for the pump fake, gives too much room to shooters, contest late, or fails to contest, leaves his hips wide open to guards, takes poor angles on cutting off the passing lanes and and lacks consistent effort getting over on the helps side. If you watch any game this season , you will see every single one of those lack of fundamentals. I do believe SVG per KL has said this as well.

A important stat your missing is he's 3rd in the league in Personal Fouls with 4.5 a game.

Dre was a lot cleaner with his technique at the beginning of the season but for whatever reason fell off. Idc what stats say, there is no way you can watch a game of dre and say he's a defensive anchor. At moments in the game, yes, but not ever consistently

[jakebernat]

this thread is making me cringe.

we have all the tools/players to be one of, if not, THE elite defensive team in the nba, not just a top 10, 15, 17.5, wtf ever. it starts with dre. no, he should not "concede the midrange shot" to skilled centers. what he should do is move his goddamn feet, stop reaching, and stop biting on every single pump fake. you're telling me that you'd be fine with dre sagging off marc gasol, al horford, brook lopez, etc.?? these guys consistently torch us simply because andre gets lazy.

also, yes^^^. our defense would be HORRENDOUS without KCP and morris. dre is probably the 3rd best defender on our team, and that's being nice. the stats are sexy, but the play isn't.

[DetroitSho]

Question for the forum: what's a bigger problem, Dre absolutely getting abused 1 on 1 on a nightly basis by opposing centers or Dre not being a dominant rim protector to penetrating guards? What happens more often?

[Todd3]

Whomever has said Andre is anchoring a top 10 defense is just flat out wrong imo. KCP and Marcus Morris are BY FAR the anchors of the defense. And it's not even close.

How can a SG and SF anchor a defense from the perimeter? The anchor of the defense is the C in the paint.

Semantics aside, math disagrees with your assessment regardless.

Our starting 5 with Drummond at C allows 101 pts per 100 possessions. The starters with Baynes at C allow 115 points per 100 possessions. If KCP and Morris were the most important defenders on the team as I think you are suggesting, our defense shouldn't get 14 pts worse with them w/o Drummond.

[bballnmike]

Whomever has said Andre is anchoring a top 10 defense is just flat out wrong imo. KCP and Marcus Morris are BY FAR the anchors of the defense. And it's not even close.

How can a SG and SF anchor a defense from the perimeter? The anchor of the defense is the C in the paint.

Semantics aside, math disagrees with your assessment regardless.

Our starting 5 with Drummond at C allows 101 pts per 100 possessions. The starters with Baynes at C allow 115 points per 100 possessions. If KCP and Morris were the most important defenders on the team as I think you are suggesting, our defense shouldn't get 14 pts worse with them w/o Drummond.

I think it's a matter of how you define anchor, either quite literally the center in the middle of the defense? Or is it the leader (effort or vocally), the best (on ball?) defender, etc.

FWIW, I voted for "Needs more time" so I'm really not even as critical as some here, but I do think KCP is a definitely a better defender than Drummond. Not sure if all the stats support that, but the eye test does. Then again, maybe we're biased because KCP always gives 100% effort on defense and makes the hustle plays. But KCP is also often tasked with guarding a team's best player, and more than holds his own. Who they're matched up against could also affect those stats

[DBC10]

this thread is making me cringe.

we have all the tools/players to be one of, if not, THE elite defensive team in the nba, not just a top 10, 15, 17.5, wtf ever. it starts with dre. no, he should not "concede the midrange shot" to skilled centers. what he should do is move his goddamn feet, stop reaching, and stop biting on every single pump fake. you're telling me that you'd be fine with dre sagging off marc gasol, al horford, brook lopez, etc.?? these guys consistently torch us simply because andre gets lazy.

also, yes^^^. our defense would be HORRENDOUS without KCP and morris. dre is probably the 3rd best defender on our team, and that's being nice. the stats are sexy, but the play isn't.

Morris has been the biggest surprise to me in terms of defense this year, besides KCP obvious growth in that department as well. I didn't know Morris was good defensively ever since watching him debut for the Rockets when they were just getting started with the Beard. I wish he was a better help defender, but can't complain about his willingness to man up and do some dirty work guarding some guys.

But yeah, we'd be nowhere in defense if Morris and KCP disappeared off the map. Their RPMs have been pretty steady which contributes positively overall.

[DBC10]

Whomever has said Andre is anchoring a top 10 defense is just flat out wrong imo. KCP and Marcus Morris are BY FAR the anchors of the defense. And it's not even close.

How can a SG and SF anchor a defense from the perimeter? The anchor of the defense is the C in the paint.

Semantics aside, math disagrees with your assessment regardless.

Our starting 5 with Drummond at C allows 101 pts per 100 possessions. The starters with Baynes at C allow 115 points per 100 possessions. If KCP and Morris were the most important defenders on the team as I think you are suggesting, our defense shouldn't get 14 pts worse with them w/o Drummond.

I think it's a matter of how you define anchor, either quite literally the center in the middle of the defense? Or is it the leader (effort or vocally), the best (on ball?) defender, etc.

FWIW, I voted for "Needs more time" so I'm really not even as critical as some here, but I do think KCP is a definitely a better defender than Drummond. Not sure if all the stats support that, but the eye test does. Then again, maybe we're biased because KCP always gives 100% effort on defense and makes the hustle plays. But KCP is also often tasked with guarding a team's best player, and more than holds his own. Who they're matched up against could also affect those stats

You're not going to get conclusive data on defense regardless especially if we're trying to distinguish who is the "heart" of the defense and whatnot. Current mainstream defensive stats are just too flimsy, and stats like RPM have tried to correct this while accounting for personnel around a specific player and among other many variables.

Simply put, there just is too many variables to point out and say "X" player is this great defensively and etc etc.

-You have to account for personnel (which RPM does to an extent)
-Who they're actually guarding
-If the player gets the switch after being beat off dribble and a teammate contests (which explains how players like Andre Miller last year had positive defensive marks in some statistical categories)
- Accounting for amount of help defense
- Accounting for double teams
- Adequate sample size and consistency/trends
- Defensive system

etc etc. Which is why I don't place high faith in defensve stats that the NBA.com supplies. Analytics looks at other factors and trends which is a better summation of what's actually going on.

[Blkbrd671]

Question for the forum: what's a bigger problem, Dre absolutely getting abused 1 on 1 on a nightly basis by opposing centers or Dre not being a dominant rim protector to penetrating guards? What happens more often?

Both, it just goes to show he can't consistently guard either. Part of the problem is that we have no one to clean up the DRB when dre does effect the shot.

The biggest problem is Dre's defensive fundamentals and technique. Most of it has to do with being lazy/fatigue as he's shown he can capably play defense if he puts in the effort.

[DetroitSho]

Question for the forum: what's a bigger problem, Dre absolutely getting abused 1 on 1 on a nightly basis by opposing centers or Dre not being a dominant rim protector to penetrating guards? What happens more often?

Both, it just goes to show he can't consistently guard either. Part of the problem is that we have no one to clean up the DRB when dre does effect the shot.

The biggest problem is Dre's defensive fundamentals and technique. Most of it has to do with being lazy/fatigue as he's shown he can capably play defense if he puts in the effort.

How can you answer "both" to a question that's asking which one happens more often? Please rattle off the names of centers that have gotten the ball and taken Dre to the woodshed all game. And please don't give me guys like Lopez who's hit jumpers off Dre being late recovering trying to help out other guys.

[Todd3]

this thread is making me cringe.

we have all the tools/players to be one of, if not, THE elite defensive team in the nba, not just a top 10, 15, 17.5, wtf ever. it starts with dre. no, he should not "concede the midrange shot" to skilled centers. what he should do is move his goddamn feet, stop reaching, and stop biting on every single pump fake. you're telling me that you'd be fine with dre sagging off marc gasol, al horford, brook lopez, etc.?? these guys consistently torch us simply because andre gets lazy.

also, yes^^^. our defense would be HORRENDOUS without KCP and morris. dre is probably the 3rd best defender on our team, and that's being nice. the stats are sexy, but the play isn't.

Stats are the play on the court recorded on paper. If a player plays good/bad it's going to show in the stats. They aren't embelished to make bad players look good.

The midrange shot is the least the efficient in the game. Most good defenses are built to stop the paint and 3s and do the best they can to contest the midrange within reason. Expecting a 6-11, 280 lb C to run back & forth from paint to 15' all game to contest midrange jumpshots is not within reason at that size. He's not 6-7, 240lbs like Ben Wallace. And when there is no secondary rim protector to cover for him, it's just plain foolish to form a layup line at the rim because you have your only rim protector contesting low % midrange shots instead.

Opposing Cs aren't taking that shot because it's their preferred shot. They are doing it because their HC is trying to draw Drummond from the paint, so they can get easier shots at the rim. 1 Center isn't going to beat a team by himself shooting midrange jumpshots all game. It's when you start going to contest and create penetration opportunities for them that gets you beat. I wouldn't even have him following a guy for 3s, let alone the low % midrange. Lopez takes 6.2 from midrange per game and makes 2.7 of them for 43%. That isn't going to beat you.

Just like you probably watch Drummond get scored on a few times and conclude his whole defense was bad, I think you are watching a guy make a couple midrange shots in a row and think he's going to do it all game if you don't guard him, but the % will play in your favor over time and better to be in position to protect the paint and let him stop shooting them himself after he inevitably misses a couple.

[Todd3]

Whomever has said Andre is anchoring a top 10 defense is just flat out wrong imo. KCP and Marcus Morris are BY FAR the anchors of the defense. And it's not even close.

How can a SG and SF anchor a defense from the perimeter? The anchor of the defense is the C in the paint.

Semantics aside, math disagrees with your assessment regardless.

Our starting 5 with Drummond at C allows 101 pts per 100 possessions. The starters with Baynes at C allow 115 points per 100 possessions. If KCP and Morris were the most important defenders on the team as I think you are suggesting, our defense shouldn't get 14 pts worse with them w/o Drummond.

I think it's a matter of how you define anchor, either quite literally the center in the middle of the defense? Or is it the leader (effort or vocally), the best (on ball?) defender, etc.

FWIW, I voted for "Needs more time" so I'm really not even as critical as some here, but I do think KCP is a definitely a better defender than Drummond. Not sure if all the stats support that, but the eye test does. Then again, maybe we're biased because KCP always gives 100% effort on defense and makes the hustle plays. But KCP is also often tasked with guarding a team's best player, and more than holds his own. Who they're matched up against could also affect those stats

The C is the anchor in that they hold down the whole defense, especially in a 1-4 system. They are responsible not only for their man, but also stopping everyone else's man at the rim, and getting the rebound. No perimeter player has that much responsibility/effect on a defense. KCP is the better on-ball defender, but Drummond plays the more impactful position and has a greater effect on the overall team defense imo (and the stats follow).

[Todd3]

Question for the forum: what's a bigger problem, Dre absolutely getting abused 1 on 1 on a nightly basis by opposing centers or Dre not being a dominant rim protector to penetrating guards? What happens more often?

Both, it just goes to show he can't consistently guard either. Part of the problem is that we have no one to clean up the DRB when dre does effect the shot.

The biggest problem is Dre's defensive fundamentals and technique. Most of it has to do with being lazy/fatigue as he's shown he can capably play defense if he puts in the effort.

How can you answer "both" to a question that's asking which one happens more often? Please rattle off the names of centers that have gotten the ball and taken Dre to the woodshed all game. And please don't give me guys like Lopez who's hit jumpers off Dre being late recovering trying to help out other guys.

Didn't you know, any Center who scores on Dre once or twice a game = 'Dre got abused' here lol

[Blkbrd671]

Question for the forum: what's a bigger problem, Dre absolutely getting abused 1 on 1 on a nightly basis by opposing centers or Dre not being a dominant rim protector to penetrating guards? What happens more often?

Both, it just goes to show he can't consistently guard either. Part of the problem is that we have no one to clean up the DRB when dre does effect the shot.

The biggest problem is Dre's defensive fundamentals and technique. Most of it has to do with being lazy/fatigue as he's shown he can capably play defense if he puts in the effort.

How can you answer "both" to a question that's asking which one happens more often?

Because it happens every game , not one more than the other consistently. You want a answer to that question, but it happens so often its really irrelevant which happens more.

Please rattle off the names of centers that have gotten the ball and taken Dre to the woodshed all game. And please don't give me guys like Lopez who's hit jumpers off Dre being late recovering trying to help out other guys.

Lopez, Gasol, Gasol, Cousins, Bargani, Jokic, JV(everytime other than last game),Cody Zellar, Sullinger, Tim Duncan, LMA, Diaw

Baynes, Anthony, and every other center in the NBA has no problems recovering. Being that our center is uniquiely gifted with athleticism and mobility at his size, you would think he could recover in time. This alludes to my reference about his poor technique ,position and effort. While you allude to "other guys" as the reason why Dre gets lit up, fact is our defense is built that way and with better fundementals , Dre could recover or even prevent the pass.

[Blkbrd671]

Didn't you know, any Center who scores on Dre once or twice a game = 'Dre got abused' here lol

and or have a career/season high

[whitehops]

it's tough to exactly pinpoint where dre's shortcomings stem from but my guess is (shockingly) a combination of effort/motor and awareness. discipline works its way in there too.

part of playing good defense is being able to process a lot of things at once. there are nine other guys on the floor you have to keep track of, remember what their strengths/weaknesses are and what you're willing to give up, all while chasing your man around and dodging screens and communicating it all with your teammates to help them out. something that could be slowing him down in processing all this is him getting used to the rotations. if you have to consciously think about the movements you are making it doesn't give you as much opportunity to see what's going on around you. if you are trying to pay attention to everything that is around you, you might miss a rotation. it goes full circle.

discipline and effort go hand-in-hand to an extent. it simply takes effort to complete rotations, closeouts, etc. but you also need to be disciplined in not closing out too hard or rotating too far otherwise you're out of position. and it's easier to close out properly and get in stance if you are giving the proper effort.

so yeah, it's hard to point to one thing that is holding dre back the most. all I know is that it is going to take a concentrated effort from dre to consistently be a good defender.

[Manocad]

Dre has improved defensively and that's clear. The OP's question is fair--why hasn't he improved more than he has? The reason that question is asked is because a) he has the tools to become a defensive monster, and b) there are certainly incidents where he looks downright bad on defense. And your answer is right here:

it's tough to exactly pinpoint where dre's shortcomings stem from but my guess is (shockingly) a combination of effort/motor and awareness. discipline works its way in there too.