Game 15: Rockets (8-5) @ Pistons (6-8) - 7:30 PM EST

[DBC10]

We need to stop posting up Dre like he's Hakeem it's killing his FG, soon enough he'll have one of the lowest FG% of all starting centers. We're doing it way too frequently for someone that'll likely never be a dominant post scorer anytime soon.

Don't worry, it won't get lower than Cousins.

DMC takes a lot of jumpers though, he's not even a true center at this point in time. But I hope you're right, Dre's TS% is getting noticeably worse each passing week.

[mattao313]

an all-star and wannabe franchise player earning a max contract is obliged to give his 100% on the defensive end even if his offense isn't working. whatever the reason is.

I wouldn't play hard for a coach that was setting me up to fail either. And when it's the whole team not giving effort, it's the coach not the players.

Dre is 2nd in the league in pick & roll efficiency (91st percentile), yet only runs it 9.9% of the time.

Meanwhile, he's taken the 2nd most post-ups in the league, despite only being in the 21st percentile in post efficiency.

This should never be happening. It's losing basketball and it's the coach orchestrating it, and I'll never blame a players effort if their coach isn't putting them in position to succeed.

Stan has him surrounded by weak defenders who give up penetration at will and can't shoot on the other end either. He's done a poor job building around him and is doing a poor job coaching him. When there's a history of All-Star Centers becoming fed up with this guy (Shaq/Dwight), I lean more towards him being the problem. And I'd bet he'd be the first to go again before Gores lets him trade Drummond.

Of course his pnr scoring is down cause he is playing with Ish instead of Reggie. So why is his put back frequency down?

The first thing you said is ridiculous SVG made Drummond into a Allstar how the hell is he setting him up to fail?

[flow]

We need to stop posting up Dre like he's Hakeem it's killing his FG, soon enough he'll have one of the lowest FG% of all starting centers. We're doing it way too frequently for someone that'll likely never be a dominant post scorer anytime soon.

Don't worry, it won't get lower than Cousins.

Excluding dunks and lay-ins, Drummond has taken 63 shots in the paint so far this season. Made 20 of them.

31.75%

.

[7r5ur]

We need to stop posting up Dre like he's Hakeem it's killing his FG, soon enough he'll have one of the lowest FG% of all starting centers. We're doing it way too frequently for someone that'll likely never be a dominant post scorer anytime soon.

Don't worry, it won't get lower than Cousins.

Excluding dunks and lay-ins, Drummond has taken 63 shots in the paint so far this season. Made 20 of them.

31.75%

.

I think it's pretty clear if Reggie was healthy, he wouldn't be getting force-fed so many post ups. Ish sucks, Tobias gets his points in the flow, and both Morris and KCP are erratic and take bad shots. Without Reggie there isn't anyone to create offense. So yeah, we're scraping the bottom of the barrel a little and maybe Stan is just hoping Andre gets more comfortable in there with experience (even though it's not looking too positive right now). For some reason he seemed better down there last year. Not sure why.

I also think there's a little Ben Wallace effect going on. Ben's energy always jumped up when he was a little involved offensively (which is why Larry Brown always force-fed him). Andre seems to be the same way. Without RJ he just doesn't get those easy dunks off of pick and rolls to get his energy up.

[Todd3]

an all-star and wannabe franchise player earning a max contract is obliged to give his 100% on the defensive end even if his offense isn't working. whatever the reason is.

I wouldn't play hard for a coach that was setting me up to fail either. And when it's the whole team not giving effort, it's the coach not the players.

Dre is 2nd in the league in pick & roll efficiency (91st percentile), yet only runs it 9.9% of the time.

Meanwhile, he's taken the 2nd most post-ups in the league, despite only being in the 21st percentile in post efficiency.

This should never be happening. It's losing basketball and it's the coach orchestrating it, and I'll never blame a players effort if their coach isn't putting them in position to succeed.

Stan has him surrounded by weak defenders who give up penetration at will and can't shoot on the other end either. He's done a poor job building around him and is doing a poor job coaching him. When there's a history of All-Star Centers becoming fed up with this guy (Shaq/Dwight), I lean more towards him being the problem. And I'd bet he'd be the first to go again before Gores lets him trade Drummond.

Of course his pnr scoring is down cause he is playing with Ish instead of Reggie. So why is his put back frequency down?

The first thing you said is ridiculous SVG made Drummond into a Allstar how the hell is he setting him up to fail?

You just answered your own question. He made Dre an All-Star by giving him a PG that allowed him to play to his strengths (Reggie). He's now setting him up to fail by giving him a PG who is forcing him to play to his weaknesses because he doesn't fit (Ish).

And when he has a better option in Beno, who would allow Dre to play more to his strengths again but is refusing to start him, this is 100% on Stan as coach.

The fact that we even have such a bad pnr PG on the roster in the first place when your franchise player is a pnr C is 100% on Stan as President too.

The reason his putbacks are down is because a lot of them came from Reggie's penetration before. He'd either draw his defender or both his and Dre's , leaving Dre either 1-on-1 or unguarded to clean up the miss every pick & roll. Now he's rarely even running pnr to begin with, so how's he supposed to get putbacks if he's the one shooting it from 8 ft? And even when they do run it, no one is guarding Ish. They just wait til he shoots and then tag team Dre to make sure he can't get the putback. So when a player is being doubled on o-rebs instead of single or zero coverage, obviously his putback frequency is going to be less.

Sometimes there's even 3 or 4 guys surrounding him. Which is part of the reason we're top 5 in transition defense. Because opponents have to commit so many resources to stopping his putbacks, they can't run as much vs us. Which is another unsung impact he has on defense that the casual fan doesn't realize.

[Todd3]

an all-star and wannabe franchise player earning a max contract is obliged to give his 100% on the defensive end even if his offense isn't working. whatever the reason is.

I wouldn't play hard for a coach that was setting me up to fail either. And when it's the whole team not giving effort, it's the coach not the players.

Dre is 2nd in the league in pick & roll efficiency (91st percentile), yet only runs it 9.9% of the time.

Meanwhile, he's taken the 2nd most post-ups in the league, despite only being in the 21st percentile in post efficiency.

This should never be happening. It's losing basketball and it's the coach orchestrating it, and I'll never blame a players effort if their coach isn't putting them in position to succeed.

Stan has him surrounded by weak defenders who give up penetration at will and can't shoot on the other end either. He's done a poor job building around him and is doing a poor job coaching him. When there's a history of All-Star Centers becoming fed up with this guy (Shaq/Dwight), I lean more towards him being the problem. And I'd bet he'd be the first to go again before Gores lets him trade Drummond.

Love the data!

Is it possible that having Ish Smith as the PG is a big part of those numbers?

Sent from my SM-J110F using RealGM mobile app

[Blkbrd671]

Not sure why you think so. I don't recall much difference between Drummond last year (with RJ) and now.

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RJ's threat to attack and finish at the rim not to mention clutch-ness in the 4th quarter is going to force teams to drastically defend the PnR differently. Dre will have more opporutnities for clean up and less pressure on him to be efficient on offense. Does someone really need explain to you that there is a diff between Ish smith and RJ!?

SH* even SVG said our team is drastically different without RJ.

I'm not questioning the difference between RJ and Ish. I'm questioning the assertion that RJ's return will help Drummond's game alot. Was Drummond's game a lot better last year than it's been this year? That's the point.

.

You realize how many 1-5 PnR sets we run??? If your acknowledging RJ is a upgrade from Smith, its naive to think that other players won't improve, especially the main duo in this offense. Your comparing apples to oranges and acting like its all apples. A season with RJ running point vs 15 game sample with Ish means Dre hasn't improved. Your assessment is suspect and lacking.

[flow]

RJ's threat to attack and finish at the rim not to mention clutch-ness in the 4th quarter is going to force teams to drastically defend the PnR differently. Dre will have more opporutnities for clean up and less pressure on him to be efficient on offense. Does someone really need explain to you that there is a diff between Ish smith and RJ!?

SH* even SVG said our team is drastically different without RJ.

I'm not questioning the difference between RJ and Ish. I'm questioning the assertion that RJ's return will help Drummond's game alot. Was Drummond's game a lot better last year than it's been this year? That's the point.

.

You realize how many 1-5 PnR sets we run??? If your acknowledging RJ is a upgrade from Smith, its naive to think that other players won't improve, especially the main duo in this offense. Your comparing apples to oranges and acting like its all apples. A season with RJ running point vs 15 game sample with Ish means Dre hasn't improved. Your assessment is suspect and lacking.

You've skipped over a year. What I remember from last season is everyone wondering and complaining what happened to the Jackson-Drummond P&R they'd seen in the 2nd half of 2014 (after the Jackson acquisition). It was either ineffective or nonexistent for much of the season.

[Blkbrd671]

I'm not questioning the difference between RJ and Ish. I'm questioning the assertion that RJ's return will help Drummond's game alot. Was Drummond's game a lot better last year than it's been this year? That's the point.

.

You realize how many 1-5 PnR sets we run??? If your acknowledging RJ is a upgrade from Smith, its naive to think that other players won't improve, especially the main duo in this offense. Your comparing apples to oranges and acting like its all apples. A season with RJ running point vs 15 game sample with Ish means Dre hasn't improved. Your assessment is suspect and lacking.

You've skipped over a year. What I remember from last season is everyone wondering and complaining what happened to the Jackson-Drummond P&R they'd seen in the 2nd half of 2014 (after the Jackson acquisition). It was either ineffective or nonexistent for much of the season.

The discussion is comparison of last season to this season and the suspect data used to determine Dre hasn't improved. Furthermore there are several articles written on how Teams began defending RJ and PnR very differently leading to RJ;s slump. Again there's no debate to be made that Andre hasn't improved or wont' improve with RJ based on how Ish smith is playing