Pistons has Lost last 10 Years Because of Poor Drafting.

[joedumars1]

I typed up this longer post and then accidentally hit refresh so **** it.

Effort/heart/depth chart ARE real problems.

How we've drafted lately isn't a real problem. Every one of those players is in the NBA, and will be in the NBA next year, and were good values for were they were selected. Mateen Cleaves and Rodney White and Darko Milicic and Austin Daye WERE bad picks. You are just happening to use bad examples to identify the wrong problem.

SVG and Bower aren't perfect. They've made some good moves. They need to continue to make good moves. They need to quickly move on from mistakes. They need to adapt.

What upsets me is that they didn't make any moves this year, good or bad, when there was a need to make a change.

because they believe this team has enough talent and will improve. like almost everyone in this board, they have overvauled teams' talent. we made playoffs last year but eastern conference was very weak.
drummond's offensive rebounding was the only special thing about that team. I beleive we were no 2. in that area last year.

Uh, last year was the first time in like 13-15 years the 8th seed had a above .500 record in the East. Someone else can take the time to look it up if they want.

[joedumars1]

We've definitely missed on a lot of franchise altering players. But, many other teams passed on those players as well. Leonard was drafted at 14 or 15, in a redraft, he'd be the #1 pick.

I also question whether players like Kawhi, Paul George or Klay would become the players they are if they landed in Detroit, or another team who is similar in that they suck at developing young players? If we took Booker last year, he'd probably be rotting on the bench every game, just like Johnson, because he lacks defensive effort.

We have done a poor job drafting, overall. But, I feel we've been even worse at developing young players.

Agree with this completely. The handful of young players we developed a little bit (Drummond, Monroe, KCP) were due to the talent on the roster getting so bad we had no other choice. Bottom line, if Stanley were put in a position with plenty of leash to be able to play and grow while Booker was yanked back to the bench every time he made the slightest error, people would be looking at both players very differently.

We are what we are, a .500 team. We can't shoot in a league dominated by the 3 point shot. We don't have anyone to reliably create offense. Both Joe and Stan have operated with a similar vision, basically to create a decent enough team to make a cameo appearance in the playoffs. Citing examples like Paul George or Kwahii is a fools errand, it's clear everyone else with a pick in the top ~10 didn't see them become the players they would become either.

Different circumstances and players, but kinda the same. I mean look at Dinwiddie when we had him, he he did something bad he get's yanked, i'm guessing having that thought of if I do something bad i'll get pulled in the back of his head altered his play a little, look at him in Brooklyn doing alright, shooting the 3 decent. Hell SJ last game against the Bulls was killing it or playing well, but our best player, he get's pulled? WTF? How does that help him

[roc]

Iverson for Billups trade caused to collapse for this franchise. after then, we always get 7th-15th picks in drafts. you can not easily find franchise players with these picks but still there was great players.
in 2010, we missed Gordon Hayward and Paul George
in 2011, we missed Kemba Walker, Klay Thompson and Kawhi Leonard
in 2013, we missed C.J. McCollum and Giannis Antetokounmpo
in 2015, we missed Devin Booker

and we overvalue our players and always blame coaches or players heart. I know that there are few teams who have created great teams via late lottery drafts such as warriors, spurs, jazz, pacers (stephenson, hibbert, george. they ruined that great team) but it still was possible.

2013 also had Gobert and 2015 had Myles Turner (1 of the guys I liked but was unsure of due to his supposed leg/knee issues at the time).

2013 though I am on record in the Piston draft threads as wanting either CJ or Giannis. Interestingly enough during that same year I posted a trade idea on here about trading Moose + for Kawhi + and many Piston fans did not like the idea. That was obviously way before Kawhi went on to win his FMVP and the transition of the league away from offensive oriented plodding bigs.

all that being said...

no team gets all their picks right and plenty do considerably worse than what we did during that time span.

[Pharaoh]

Careful what you wish for is all I'll say

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[ven412]

Devin goes for 70 tonight. Has Stanley done that in a month yet?

[Pharaoh]

Devin goes for 70 tonight. Has Stanley done that in a month yet?

This is the kind of post that annoys me.

When has SJ ever been given 10 games to get acclimated to a role that would see him launch 40 shots in a game?

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[pistontr]

we overvalued kcp and didn't draft booker.

[ImHeisenberg]

Fair enough. A more accurate description would be both attempted to build the best team possible without bottoming out for draft picks and both unable to add "A" level talent through free agency.

The only credit I can give to Dumars, is that he had a little shine of the winning franchise as it started to crumble that he could pitch to free agents. Clearly, it did not work.

Just throwing money at the payroll has never worked in the NBA. It blows my mind that teams still do this. Championship teams are developed organically, unless you have a top 10 all time player like LeBron James. Spoiler alert: we have no such player.

The reality is, unless you have a top 5 player in the league, you probably aren't ever going to be a title contender. The Bad Boys team had a top 5 player in Thomas, and a top 15 player in Dumars. The Going to Work team were a collection of B+ players that just fit really damn good, defended, and if I'm being honest, took advantage of the east when it was insanely weak. I mean, teams with 38 wins were competing for the 6 and 7 seed those years. Once Wade and LeBron figured it out, we were shut out of the finals picture for good.

I can't honestly say we even have a top 30 player on this team. Outside of Sacramento, every other team has a player that's better than anyone on our roster. This includes Brook "Piston Killer" Lopez on Brooklyn's polarizing squad.

[The Penguin]

Fair enough. A more accurate description would be both attempted to build the best team possible without bottoming out for draft picks and both unable to add "A" level talent through free agency.

The only credit I can give to Dumars, is that he had a little shine of the winning franchise as it started to crumble that he could pitch to free agents. Clearly, it did not work.

Just throwing money at the payroll has never worked in the NBA. It blows my mind that teams still do this. Championship teams are developed organically, unless you have a top 10 all time player like LeBron James. Spoiler alert: we have no such player.

The reality is, unless you have a top 5 player in the league, you probably aren't ever going to be a title contender. The Bad Boys team had a top 5 player in Thomas, and a top 15 player in Dumars. The Going to Work team were a collection of B+ players that just fit really damn good, defended, and if I'm being honest, took advantage of the east when it was insanely weak. I mean, teams with 38 wins were competing for the 6 and 7 seed those years. Once Wade and LeBron figured it out, we were shut out of the finals picture for good.

I can't honestly say we even have a top 30 player on this team. Outside of Sacramento, every other team has a player that's better than anyone on our roster. This includes Brook "Piston Killer" Lopez on Brooklyn's polarizing squad.

IMO the real issue with Joe and Stan (beyond ownership wanting playoff revenue) is that they were chasing ghosts. Joe saw the affect Lebron had first hand and started chasing talent (first Iverson, then Ben Gordon, then Josh Smith) over building a cohesive team. Stan is chasing his "4 out - 1 in" Orlando ghost. The '09 Magic team was on the cutting edge, but Drummond isn't the player Dwight was and that supporting cast (good enough to space for Dwight) is subpar by today's shooting standards.

The league has shifted so fast that what Stan helped pioneer in Orlando is now the stone age. 8 years ago you could get by with Jameer Nelson & Hedo sharing play making responsibilities, I would put those guys on par with Reggie & Tobias, but look around the league then, you had Lebron with no help and Wade with no help in grind it out defensive schemes, Chauncey and Pierce & Rondo (when he decided to play well) and in the West you had Kobe, Nash, Parker & Manu and CP3. Almost all of those guys were playing hero ball nightly in "muck it up" systems with poor spacing from the front court and sometimes even a back court mate who couldn't shoot either. It's easy to see how a "4 out - 1 in" system around Dwight with a couple of guys capable of making plays works.

The talent that has the ball in their hands has come light years in just under a decade. You've still got Lebron, but now he's playing with Kyrie and you've got Curry & Durant, both of those teams have guys around them who could space the floor WAY better than anything Orlando ran. CP3 went from nearly making the Finals with David West as his #2 to being an after thought with Blake & DeAndre. The entire league is basically running the Suns "SSOL" offense and Harden, Westbrook, Wall, IT can all score and play make not far from what Nash was doing. You simply can't get by now without multiple play makers and multiple legitimate three point threats.

[pistontr]

Fair enough. A more accurate description would be both attempted to build the best team possible without bottoming out for draft picks and both unable to add "A" level talent through free agency.

The only credit I can give to Dumars, is that he had a little shine of the winning franchise as it started to crumble that he could pitch to free agents. Clearly, it did not work.

Just throwing money at the payroll has never worked in the NBA. It blows my mind that teams still do this. Championship teams are developed organically, unless you have a top 10 all time player like LeBron James. Spoiler alert: we have no such player.

The reality is, unless you have a top 5 player in the league, you probably aren't ever going to be a title contender. The Bad Boys team had a top 5 player in Thomas, and a top 15 player in Dumars. The Going to Work team were a collection of B+ players that just fit really damn good, defended, and if I'm being honest, took advantage of the east when it was insanely weak. I mean, teams with 38 wins were competing for the 6 and 7 seed those years. Once Wade and LeBron figured it out, we were shut out of the finals picture for good.

I can't honestly say we even have a top 30 player on this team. Outside of Sacramento, every other team has a player that's better than anyone on our roster. This includes Brook "Piston Killer" Lopez on Brooklyn's polarizing squad.

IMO the real issue with Joe and Stan (beyond ownership wanting playoff revenue) is that they were chasing ghosts. Joe saw the affect Lebron had first hand and started chasing talent (first Iverson, then Ben Gordon, then Josh Smith) over building a cohesive team. Stan is chasing his "4 out - 1 in" Orlando ghost. The '09 Magic team was on the cutting edge, but Drummond isn't the player Dwight was and that supporting cast (good enough to space for Dwight) is subpar by today's shooting standards.

The league has shifted so fast that what Stan helped pioneer in Orlando is now the stone age. 8 years ago you could get by with Jameer Nelson & Hedo sharing play making responsibilities, I would put those guys on par with Reggie & Tobias, but look around the league then, you had Lebron with no help and Wade with no help in grind it out defensive schemes, Chauncey and Pierce & Rondo (when he decided to play well) and in the West you had Kobe, Nash, Parker & Manu and CP3. Almost all of those guys were playing hero ball nightly in "muck it up" systems with poor spacing from the front court and sometimes even a back court mate who couldn't shoot either. It's easy to see how a "4 out - 1 in" system around Dwight with a couple of guys capable of making plays works.

The talent that has the ball in their hands has come light years in just under a decade. You've still got Lebron, but now he's playing with Kyrie and you've got Curry & Durant, both of those teams have guys around them who could space the floor WAY better than anything Orlando ran. CP3 went from nearly making the Finals with David West as his #2 to being an after thought with Blake & DeAndre. The entire league is basically running the Suns "SSOL" offense and Harden, Westbrook, Wall, IT can all score and play make not far from what Nash was doing. You simply can't get by now without multiple play makers and multiple legitimate three point threats.

we should mimic that team we haven't. hedo was point forward, tobias is non-shooter scorer. lewis was great wolume shooter and defender, we don't have that guy. problem is, he hasn't built that team here. he has gone after below average shooters who can not creat for others. thay are average athletes too.

[MotownMadness]

we overvalued kcp and didn't draft booker.

I really didn't think Booker would be this good. I was comparing him to a one trick pony like Meeks as a shooter. We missed bad on that one and he wanted to be here in his home state.

[chrbal]

We drafted fine, we just really never went into a true rebuild/tear down. Which is what we needed when the "going to work" era was coming to an end. Billups get traded and Rip gets an extension within a month of each-other. The team hangs onto Ben Wallace (I'm fine with this, but it helps my point) for 4 sub .500 seasons before he leaves for Chicago. When we finally traded Prince is was for another vet to keep us on the treadmill.

As far as the actual draft. 2nd round, and towards the end of the 1st round, i don't care what you site is a complete guessing game. Basically the worst thing we did was trade Khris Middleton, especially with the NBA becoming a shooters league.

Austin Daye was bad choice but; Hasheem Thabeet no.2, Jonny Flynn no. 6, Terrence Wiliams no. 11, Tyler Hansbrough 12, Earl Clark 13. Wasn't exactly a gem filled draft. Flynn and Williams were on our preseason roster in 2012 as camp fodder. And there were plenty of nobodies chosen after at positions of need for the Pistons that year.

Every team makes bad picks, poor drafting isn't why we are where we are. Its poor use of money, itchy trigger fingers. Villauneva and Gordon, Smith and Jennings. trading Knight (not much of PG right now but who knows what would've happened had we kept him...good or bad) and Middleton might have helped out better long term then Jennings short term.

[DBC10]

We drafted fine, we just really never went into a true rebuild/tear down. Which is what we needed when the "going to work" era was coming to an end. Billups get traded and Rip gets an extension within a month of each-other. The team hangs onto Ben Wallace (I'm fine with this, but it helps my point) for 4 sub .500 seasons before he leaves for Chicago. When we finally traded Prince is was for another vet to keep us on the treadmill.

As far as the actual draft. 2nd round, and towards the end of the 1st round, i don't care what you site is a complete guessing game. Basically the worst thing we did was trade Khris Middleton, especially with the NBA becoming a shooters league.

Austin Daye was bad choice but; Hasheem Thabeet no.2, Jonny Flynn no. 6, Terrence Wiliams no. 11, Tyler Hansbrough 12, Earl Clark 13. Wasn't exactly a gem filled draft. Flynn and Williams were on our preseason roster in 2012 as camp fodder. And there were plenty of nobodies chosen after at positions of need for the Pistons that year.

Every team makes bad picks, poor drafting isn't why we are where we are. Its poor use of money, itchy trigger fingers. Villauneva and Gordon, Smith and Jennings. trading Knight (not much of PG right now but who knows what would've happened had we kept him...good or bad) and Middleton might have helped out better long term then Jennings short term.

Yep.

It's having multiple back to back to back picks in the 7+ range and expecting them to develop into stars. When what we should've done was tank hard for 2 or 3 years and get in the top 5 picks and go from there. Considering we were absolute trash when we were picking at those relative low 7-8,9) ranges, at that point it's puzzling why we didn't string a few more losses to land in the much more likelihood "star" zone of picking 1-5. And we didn't do enough asset collecting aka future picks or taking fliers on young guys as much as we should have during the twilight years of Dumars' reign.

[The Moose]

I think the worst move has been the 2015 season.
We started 5-20, and still somehow ended up 8th in the lottery. That draft had KAT and Porzingis.

[The Penguin]

I should mimic that team we haven't. hedo was point forward, tobias is non-shooter scorer. lewis was great wolume shooter and defender, we don't have that guy. problem is, he hasn't built that team here. he has gone after below average shooters who can not creat for others. thay are average athletes too.

The larger point of my post is that Hedo - Jameer isn't good enough now to accomplish what it did then. It's less about the schematics of player comparisons between Hedo-Jameer and Tobias-Reggie and more about the fact that what those Magic teams did was new to the league but now you've got Lebron & Kyrie and Durant & Curry playing the same style together. We don't have one player the caliber of Paul George or Jimmy Butler, heck even Westbrook and Harden don't have enough help to actually win a title, you need two players of that caliber now if you actually want to accomplish anything. It's a far cry from Lebron dragging Mo Williams to the Finals or the Lakers winning a title all standing around watching Kobe. The league has changed dramatically over the last decade, Stan hasn't, he went from being an innovator to a dinosaur.

[The Penguin]

I think the worst move has been the 2015 season.
We started 5-20, and still somehow ended up 8th in the lottery. That draft had KAT and Porzingis.

Porzingis next to Andre would be very interesting, though I'm sure Dre would pout because Porzingis would be getting all the love.

[Canadafan]

This thread annoys me because of the lack of grammar lol sorry but it's not has its have! Grrrrr grammar police have spoken!