GAME 16: 76ers @ Pistons 8PM

[Moses ShamMoses]

Jerami Grant has struggled the past 2 games. I think teams are game planning against him more aggressively. He will need to adjust and mix up his game a bit. Needs to look to dish more especially on his drives where he is forcing things.

[ByeByeDre]

Guys I would trade for 2nd rounders:

Blake (take him and his contract)
Plumlee (take him an his contract)
Wright (average PG)
Ellington (shooter)
Okafor (depth big)


I still think we could get a late 1st from a contender for Rose

Here’s a trade possibility:

Detroit trades

Blake
Plumlee
Wright
Ellington
Okafor

LA Clippers trade

2023 second round pick (originally Portland’s)
2024 second round pick (originally Detroit’s)
2025 second round pick (originally Detroit’s)
2026 second round pick (originally Detroit’s)


Great trade for a rebuilding team. Who says no?

Happy Sunday! Go Tom Brady!

[NYPiston]

literally never stand in agreeance with anything Manocad says but his point is 100% correct. I'm not sure why it's going over your head.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

Care to elaborate?

Manocad is saying that the tank will be ruined if the kids get bigger minutes but there's literally no proof that this will happen. They have won exactly zero games with both Griffin and Rose out so what point is flying over my head?

[JohnReese]

Trade value:

Plumlee: 2nd round from a PO team
Rose: Late first from a contender or 2 second rounds
Wright and Ellington: 1 or 2 second round picks (depending on the value of the picks)
Okafor: no value. Swapping him for player on his situation.
Griffin: no market at all.
Grant: 1 or 2 firsts depending on the picks value

The most urgent situation is Rose and Ellington. They need to go.

[DetroitSho]

literally never stand in agreeance with anything Manocad says but his point is 100% correct. I'm not sure why it's going over your head.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

Care to elaborate?

Manocad is saying that the tank will be ruined if the kids get bigger minutes but there's literally no proof that this will happen. They have won exactly zero games with both Griffin and Rose out so what point is flying over my head?

Actually what he is doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of the weird take posters are making about Casey. So firstly I need you to focus on that part, because you're making this whole back and forth about his opinion than it is him pointing out a baseless contradiction being made.

It's simple math. For the logic of most posters, playing Blake and Rose (and kinda Plumlee)= bad basketball, bogs the team down, gets in the way of better players. In the case of Blake, a blind man can see he's clearly holding the team back.

Playing Bey, Sekou and Stewart = more balance, youth and energy and just overall better basketball.

So by some weird logic, Casey is playing the worst players, ONE OF WHICH IS COMPLETELY SHOT, to try and win games.

People don't allow for there to be any other explanation other than someone's an idiot for not doing what you'd do. Showcasing vets for trades be damned, he's an idiot. Killian Hayes be damned, play the young guys whether they suck or not.

And I don't care what you say, if you remove players that have been bogging your team team down and you put in hungry guys who fit better, you will begin to win more than you have been winning. It's almost like you think he's saying they'll start competing for the playoffs or something. This team is on pace to win what, 14-15 games? They can still be bad if you play the young guys, Manocad is not debating that. But if that 15 wins turn into 21-23 wins, you go from almost guaranteeing yourself the worst record to now maybe 4th worse.

Simply put, this board can't want both the worst record and complete competence on the floor. There's purposeful incompetence that goes into tanking and losing the most games.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[Laimbeer]

Guys I would trade for 2nd rounders:

Blake (take him and his contract)
Plumlee (take him an his contract)
Wright (average PG)
Ellington (shooter)
Okafor (depth big)


I still think we could get a late 1st from a contender for Rose

Here’s a trade possibility:

Detroit trades

Blake
Plumlee
Wright
Ellington
Okafor

LA Clippers trade

2023 second round pick (originally Portland’s)
2024 second round pick (originally Detroit’s)
2025 second round pick (originally Detroit’s)
2026 second round pick (originally Detroit’s)


Great trade for a rebuilding team. Who says no?

The salary cap. And the Clips.

[ByeByeDre]

Guys I would trade for 2nd rounders:

Blake (take him and his contract)
Plumlee (take him an his contract)
Wright (average PG)
Ellington (shooter)
Okafor (depth big)


I still think we could get a late 1st from a contender for Rose

Here’s a trade possibility:

Detroit trades

Blake
Plumlee
Wright
Ellington
Okafor

LA Clippers trade

2023 second round pick (originally Portland’s)
2024 second round pick (originally Detroit’s)
2025 second round pick (originally Detroit’s)
2026 second round pick (originally Detroit’s)


Great trade for a rebuilding team. Who says no?

The salary cap. And the Clips.

D’Oh!

[Manocad]

literally never stand in agreeance with anything Manocad says but his point is 100% correct. I'm not sure why it's going over your head.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

Care to elaborate?

Manocad is saying that the tank will be ruined if the kids get bigger minutes but there's literally no proof that this will happen. They have won exactly zero games with both Griffin and Rose out so what point is flying over my head?

Nope, I never said the tank would be ruined. I clearly said many many times that if the kids play big minutes and Blake and Rose play limited/meaningless minutes, this team will not finish LAST, i.e. get the best shot at a #1 pick. I had one post that read "Either play the kids big minutes or tank. Pick one," and that context was finishing last. I never said that tanking couldn't be accomplished by finishing with the 2nd or 3rd worst record if it meant also developing the kids at a good pace. But as anyone knows, the difference between winning 14 games (the current pace) or 20+ games could be HUGE in draft position. And could I see the lineup that played last night winning 20+ games? Damn right I could.

[Manocad]

I feel like this is arguing for the sake of arguing.

I'm not using any games because Griffin and/or Rose have played the majority of the games and will continue to play the majority of the games so what's the point of even discussing this. Griffin and Rose will play most of the games and Casey will play the hell out of them so we won't get to test out your theory that all of a sudden these young players will start carrying the Pistons to victories.

The Pistons have won 3 games this season. Rose played in all of them, Griffin played in two of them.
You know how many games the team won with both out? ZERO
This is a bad team with the two vets and a bad team without the two vets. You're acting like they have Luka Doncic level prospects waiting in the wings. Sorry, Bey, Sekou and Stewart and Jackson aren't all of a sudden going to win games for the Pistons on their own.

I am not arguing that Blake and Rose won't continue to play big minutes and the Pistons won't continue their pace of finishing last. I'm addressing the idea that Casey could play all the kids big minutes, which lots of posters are hollering for, and still finish last. This game showed me that if Blake and Rose don't play and all the kids play big minutes this doesn't look like a last place team.

My point is simple...if the kids play big minutes and Blake and Rose don't play/play minimal meaningless minutes, I don't think the team will finish last which hurts their chances at a higher draft pick. And my theory DID get tested--this game. The Pistons did NOT look like the worst team in the league this game, plain and simple. I don't believe Casey can basically do the same thing he did tonight and the Pistons still finish last/tank supreme/get the best shot at the #1 pick.

I literally never stand in agreeance with anything Manocad says but his point is 100% correct. I'm not sure why it's going over your head.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

Baby steps are still good.

[Manocad]

literally never stand in agreeance with anything Manocad says but his point is 100% correct. I'm not sure why it's going over your head.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

Care to elaborate?

Manocad is saying that the tank will be ruined if the kids get bigger minutes but there's literally no proof that this will happen. They have won exactly zero games with both Griffin and Rose out so what point is flying over my head?

Actually what he is doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of the weird take posters are making about Casey. So firstly I need you to focus on that part, because you're making this whole back and forth about his opinion than it is him pointing out a baseless contradiction being made.

It's simple math. For the logic of most posters, playing Blake and Rose (and kinda Plumlee)= bad basketball, bogs the team down, gets in the way of better players. In the case of Blake, a blind man can see he's clearly holding the team back.

Playing Bey, Sekou and Stewart = more balance, youth and energy and just overall better basketball.

So by some weird logic, Casey is playing the worst players, ONE OF WHICH IS COMPLETELY SHOT, to try and win games.

People don't allow for there to be any other explanation other than someone's an idiot for not doing what you'd do. Showcasing vets for trades be damned, he's an idiot. Killian Hayes be damned, play the young guys whether they suck or not.

And I don't care what you say, if you remove players that have been bogging your team team down and you put in hungry guys who fit better, you will begin to win more than you have been winning. It's almost like you think he's saying they'll start competing for the playoffs or something. This team is on pace to win what, 14-15 games? They can still be bad if you play the young guys, Manocad is not debating that. But if that 15 wins turn into 21-23 wins, you go from almost guaranteeing yourself the worst record to now maybe 4th worse.

Simply put, this board can't want both the worst record and complete competence on the floor. There's purposeful incompetence that goes into tanking and losing the most games.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

BINGO. Thank you.

[Invictus88]

Care to elaborate?

Manocad is saying that the tank will be ruined if the kids get bigger minutes but there's literally no proof that this will happen. They have won exactly zero games with both Griffin and Rose out so what point is flying over my head?

Actually what he is doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of the weird take posters are making about Casey. So firstly I need you to focus on that part, because you're making this whole back and forth about his opinion than it is him pointing out a baseless contradiction being made.

It's simple math. For the logic of most posters, playing Blake and Rose (and kinda Plumlee)= bad basketball, bogs the team down, gets in the way of better players. In the case of Blake, a blind man can see he's clearly holding the team back.

Playing Bey, Sekou and Stewart = more balance, youth and energy and just overall better basketball.

So by some weird logic, Casey is playing the worst players, ONE OF WHICH IS COMPLETELY SHOT, to try and win games.

People don't allow for there to be any other explanation other than someone's an idiot for not doing what you'd do. Showcasing vets for trades be damned, he's an idiot. Killian Hayes be damned, play the young guys whether they suck or not.

And I don't care what you say, if you remove players that have been bogging your team team down and you put in hungry guys who fit better, you will begin to win more than you have been winning. It's almost like you think he's saying they'll start competing for the playoffs or something. This team is on pace to win what, 14-15 games? They can still be bad if you play the young guys, Manocad is not debating that. But if that 15 wins turn into 21-23 wins, you go from almost guaranteeing yourself the worst record to now maybe 4th worse.

Simply put, this board can't want both the worst record and complete competence on the floor. There's purposeful incompetence that goes into tanking and losing the most games.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

BINGO. Thank you.

I just want Casey to play the young guys more and more consistently. For purposes of their development only. Yes, they are hungrier. They bring more energy. But they also have less experience. They have lessons to learn how to approach the game both mentally and physically.

There's no guarantee that the young guys will turn out to be good NBA players or flops. I can't easily weigh the cost of youthful mistakes and inexperience versus the positives of youthful exuberance; both in the short and long term. So I'm not at all confident of the assertion that simply throwing out the retreads in favor of the new guys will end up translating to more wins. There have been plenty of examples of teams of soon to be superstars being *awful* in their first few seasons in terms of wins and losses.

Detroit simply doesn't have enough talent that is refined and ably-bodied to consistently win basketball games. I think it's just as likely that we will end up with the league's worst record regardless of lineup configuration. For this reason I don't fault Casey because of our record. I fault him for wasting good opportunities to develop players that could actually matter to our future. I don't see the logical conflict here.

[Manocad]

Actually what he is doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of the weird take posters are making about Casey. So firstly I need you to focus on that part, because you're making this whole back and forth about his opinion than it is him pointing out a baseless contradiction being made.

It's simple math. For the logic of most posters, playing Blake and Rose (and kinda Plumlee)= bad basketball, bogs the team down, gets in the way of better players. In the case of Blake, a blind man can see he's clearly holding the team back.

Playing Bey, Sekou and Stewart = more balance, youth and energy and just overall better basketball.

So by some weird logic, Casey is playing the worst players, ONE OF WHICH IS COMPLETELY SHOT, to try and win games.

People don't allow for there to be any other explanation other than someone's an idiot for not doing what you'd do. Showcasing vets for trades be damned, he's an idiot. Killian Hayes be damned, play the young guys whether they suck or not.

And I don't care what you say, if you remove players that have been bogging your team team down and you put in hungry guys who fit better, you will begin to win more than you have been winning. It's almost like you think he's saying they'll start competing for the playoffs or something. This team is on pace to win what, 14-15 games? They can still be bad if you play the young guys, Manocad is not debating that. But if that 15 wins turn into 21-23 wins, you go from almost guaranteeing yourself the worst record to now maybe 4th worse.

Simply put, this board can't want both the worst record and complete competence on the floor. There's purposeful incompetence that goes into tanking and losing the most games.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

BINGO. Thank you.

I just want Casey to play the young guys more and more consistently. For purposes of their development only. Yes, they are hungrier. They bring more energy. But they also have less experience. They have lessons to learn how to approach the game both mentally and physically.

There's no guarantee that the young guys will turn out to be good NBA players or flops. I can't easily weigh the cost of youthful mistakes and inexperience versus the positives of youthful exuberance; both in the short and long term. So I'm not at all confident of the assertion that simply throwing out the retreads in favor of the new guys will end up translating to more wins. There have been plenty of examples of teams of soon to be superstars being *awful* in their first few seasons in terms of wins and losses.

Detroit simply doesn't have enough talent that is refined and ably-bodied to consistently win basketball games. I think it's just as likely that we will end up with the league's worst record regardless of lineup configuration. For this reason I don't fault Casey because of our record. I fault him for wasting good opportunities to develop players that could actually matter to our future. I don't see the logical conflict here.

Just to be clear, no one is asserting that throwing out retreads in favor of the young guys would lead to more wins. Quite the opposite in fact; that's what got the team to the worst record in the NBA.

And I don't have any problem with your opinion. I only said that the ONE sample that this team would be just as bad without the vets, specifically Blake and Rose, playing big minutes was last night's game. And based on that game, I personally don't see that lineup being the worst in the NBA over the course of the remaining games should they be played in the same (or very similar manner) as last night relative to Blake/Rose getting severely reduced minutes. Especially if Grant continues to do what he's been doing.

Yes, there certainly have been examples of young guys still sucking for a while, a full rookie season or even two, before they broke out and started contributing to winning games. But again, based on last night's game, nothing anyone can say is going to sway my opinion that this team would still be just as bad record-wise if the kids continued to play the type of minutes they got last night. You want to project that the team that played last night would be the worst team in the league over the course of a season? Have at it. But I deal in what I SAW, not generalizations like "other young guys have struggled for a while before breaking out and contributing to wins, and the Pistons have young guys."

[DetroitSho]

Actually what he is doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of the weird take posters are making about Casey. So firstly I need you to focus on that part, because you're making this whole back and forth about his opinion than it is him pointing out a baseless contradiction being made.

It's simple math. For the logic of most posters, playing Blake and Rose (and kinda Plumlee)= bad basketball, bogs the team down, gets in the way of better players. In the case of Blake, a blind man can see he's clearly holding the team back.

Playing Bey, Sekou and Stewart = more balance, youth and energy and just overall better basketball.

So by some weird logic, Casey is playing the worst players, ONE OF WHICH IS COMPLETELY SHOT, to try and win games.

People don't allow for there to be any other explanation other than someone's an idiot for not doing what you'd do. Showcasing vets for trades be damned, he's an idiot. Killian Hayes be damned, play the young guys whether they suck or not.

And I don't care what you say, if you remove players that have been bogging your team team down and you put in hungry guys who fit better, you will begin to win more than you have been winning. It's almost like you think he's saying they'll start competing for the playoffs or something. This team is on pace to win what, 14-15 games? They can still be bad if you play the young guys, Manocad is not debating that. But if that 15 wins turn into 21-23 wins, you go from almost guaranteeing yourself the worst record to now maybe 4th worse.

Simply put, this board can't want both the worst record and complete competence on the floor. There's purposeful incompetence that goes into tanking and losing the most games.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

BINGO. Thank you.

I just want Casey to play the young guys more and more consistently. For purposes of their development only. Yes, they are hungrier. They bring more energy. But they also have less experience. They have lessons to learn how to approach the game both mentally and physically.

There's no guarantee that the young guys will turn out to be good NBA players or flops. I can't easily weigh the cost of youthful mistakes and inexperience versus the positives of youthful exuberance; both in the short and long term. So I'm not at all confident of the assertion that simply throwing out the retreads in favor of the new guys will end up translating to more wins. There have been plenty of examples of teams of soon to be superstars being *awful* in their first few seasons in terms of wins and losses.

Detroit simply doesn't have enough talent that is refined and ably-bodied to consistently win basketball games. I think it's just as likely that we will end up with the league's worst record regardless of lineup configuration. For this reason I don't fault Casey because of our record. I fault him for wasting good opportunities to develop players that could actually matter to our future. I don't see the logical conflict here.

Nothing wrong with this take as you're at least not living in absolutes and saying definitively "the vets are holding us back, the young guys are better". Because then that would completely contradict the theory that we'd still lose at the historical pace we're on by ridding ourselves of the "bad players".

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[Invictus88]

BINGO. Thank you.

I just want Casey to play the young guys more and more consistently. For purposes of their development only. Yes, they are hungrier. They bring more energy. But they also have less experience. They have lessons to learn how to approach the game both mentally and physically.

There's no guarantee that the young guys will turn out to be good NBA players or flops. I can't easily weigh the cost of youthful mistakes and inexperience versus the positives of youthful exuberance; both in the short and long term. So I'm not at all confident of the assertion that simply throwing out the retreads in favor of the new guys will end up translating to more wins. There have been plenty of examples of teams of soon to be superstars being *awful* in their first few seasons in terms of wins and losses.

Detroit simply doesn't have enough talent that is refined and ably-bodied to consistently win basketball games. I think it's just as likely that we will end up with the league's worst record regardless of lineup configuration. For this reason I don't fault Casey because of our record. I fault him for wasting good opportunities to develop players that could actually matter to our future. I don't see the logical conflict here.

Just to be clear, no one is asserting that throwing out retreads in favor of the young guys would lead to more wins. Quite the opposite in fact; that's what got the team to the worst record in the NBA.

And I don't have any problem with your opinion. I only said that the ONE sample that this team would be just as bad without the vets, specifically Blake and Rose, playing big minutes was last night's game. And based on that game, I personally don't see that lineup being the worst in the NBA over the course of the remaining games should they be played in the same (or very similar manner) as last night relative to Blake/Rose getting severely reduced minutes. Especially if Grant continues to do what he's been doing.

Yes, there certainly have been examples of young guys still sucking for a while, a full rookie season or even two, before they broke out and started contributing to winning games. But again, based on last night's game, nothing anyone can say is going to sway my opinion that this team would still be just as bad record-wise if the kids continued to play the type of minutes they got last night. You want to project that the team that played last night would be the worst team in the league over the course of a season? Have at it. But I deal in what I SAW, not generalizations like "other young guys have struggled for a while before breaking out and contributing to wins, and the Pistons have young guys."

We'll have to agree to disagree here; which is okay. I've seen plenty of examples (across the season and not one game) of bad plays by our young players to offset a lot of the good pkays they have made. Yes, games have been competitive due to hunger but we've also been way down in games because of bad play. That's actually been true of both our rookies and our vets.

Appreciate the interesting discussion Monocad.

[Manocad]

I just want Casey to play the young guys more and more consistently. For purposes of their development only. Yes, they are hungrier. They bring more energy. But they also have less experience. They have lessons to learn how to approach the game both mentally and physically.

There's no guarantee that the young guys will turn out to be good NBA players or flops. I can't easily weigh the cost of youthful mistakes and inexperience versus the positives of youthful exuberance; both in the short and long term. So I'm not at all confident of the assertion that simply throwing out the retreads in favor of the new guys will end up translating to more wins. There have been plenty of examples of teams of soon to be superstars being *awful* in their first few seasons in terms of wins and losses.

Detroit simply doesn't have enough talent that is refined and ably-bodied to consistently win basketball games. I think it's just as likely that we will end up with the league's worst record regardless of lineup configuration. For this reason I don't fault Casey because of our record. I fault him for wasting good opportunities to develop players that could actually matter to our future. I don't see the logical conflict here.

Just to be clear, no one is asserting that throwing out retreads in favor of the young guys would lead to more wins. Quite the opposite in fact; that's what got the team to the worst record in the NBA.

And I don't have any problem with your opinion. I only said that the ONE sample that this team would be just as bad without the vets, specifically Blake and Rose, playing big minutes was last night's game. And based on that game, I personally don't see that lineup being the worst in the NBA over the course of the remaining games should they be played in the same (or very similar manner) as last night relative to Blake/Rose getting severely reduced minutes. Especially if Grant continues to do what he's been doing.

Yes, there certainly have been examples of young guys still sucking for a while, a full rookie season or even two, before they broke out and started contributing to winning games. But again, based on last night's game, nothing anyone can say is going to sway my opinion that this team would still be just as bad record-wise if the kids continued to play the type of minutes they got last night. You want to project that the team that played last night would be the worst team in the league over the course of a season? Have at it. But I deal in what I SAW, not generalizations like "other young guys have struggled for a while before breaking out and contributing to wins, and the Pistons have young guys."

We'll have to agree to disagree here; which is okay. I've seen plenty of examples (across the season and not one game) of bad plays by our young players to offset a lot of the good pkays they have made. Yes, games have been competitive due to hunger but we've also been way down in games because of bad play. That's actually been true of both our rookies and our vets.

Appreciate the interesting discussion Monocad.