Your Preferred Starting Lineup

[Manocad]

I get it, Cojo is old and slow and its pointless to play him. He pounds the rock and makes boing plays. But did any of you watch the games?
Like seriously?

There is no way if you actually watched the games, can say Hayes played better than CoJo.
Hayes had cooler highlight passes, he also turned the ball over twice as much as CoJo. Not turning it over is pretty important for a point guard. I get Hayes was a rookie so tough to judge a rookie, but he still turned the ball over a lot.

CoJo played out of his mind here, probably the best of his career. The dude shot over 50% as a Piston. 5.5 assists with 1.8 turnovers. He was super efficient. Advanced stats are crazier. Seriously not even close to compare the two.

CoJo
BPM 0.8 WS 1.4 PER 17.3

Hayes
BPM -7.3 WS -1.1 PER 5.3

So let's take it a step further. What's the point of playing Cojo over Hayes? Because he's better. Got that. Which means...? The Pistons will win more games. Got that. Which means...? A lower draft pick. Because they're sure as hell not contending for anything this upcoming season. Your argument actually supports mine; Hayes needs improvement and the Pistons don't need to win games. So play Hayes in order to see if he can actually become something, lose more games, get a better draft pick. Cojo is there to fill out a roster spot and provide some veteran leadership and should be used in that capacity IMO.

[FloridaMan78]

I get it, Cojo is old and slow and its pointless to play him. He pounds the rock and makes boing plays. But did any of you watch the games?
Like seriously?

There is no way if you actually watched the games, can say Hayes played better than CoJo.
Hayes had cooler highlight passes, he also turned the ball over twice as much as CoJo. Not turning it over is pretty important for a point guard. I get Hayes was a rookie so tough to judge a rookie, but he still turned the ball over a lot.

CoJo played out of his mind here, probably the best of his career. The dude shot over 50% as a Piston. 5.5 assists with 1.8 turnovers. He was super efficient. Advanced stats are crazier. Seriously not even close to compare the two.

CoJo
BPM 0.8 WS 1.4 PER 17.3

Hayes
BPM -7.3 WS -1.1 PER 5.3

So let's take it a step further. What's the point of playing Cojo over Hayes? Because he's better. Got that. Which means...? The Pistons will win more games. Got that. Which means...? A lower draft pick. Because they're sure as hell not contending for anything this upcoming season. Your argument actually supports mine; Hayes needs improvement and the Pistons don't need to win games. So play Hayes in order to see if he can actually become something, lose more games, get a better draft pick. Cojo is there to fill out a roster spot and provide some veteran leadership and should be used in that capacity IMO.

Yea I'm not arguing your point, I get that seriously. But look at these other comments. People are literally saying CoJo played bad and Hayes played well. I seriously do not know what games these people are watching.

[chrbal]

I get it, Cojo is old and slow and its pointless to play him. He pounds the rock and makes boing plays. But did any of you watch the games?
Like seriously?

There is no way if you actually watched the games, can say Hayes played better than CoJo.
Hayes had cooler highlight passes, he also turned the ball over twice as much as CoJo. Not turning it over is pretty important for a point guard. I get Hayes was a rookie so tough to judge a rookie, but he still turned the ball over a lot.

CoJo played out of his mind here, probably the best of his career. The dude shot over 50% as a Piston. 5.5 assists with 1.8 turnovers. He was super efficient. Advanced stats are crazier. Seriously not even close to compare the two.

CoJo
BPM 0.8 WS 1.4 PER 17.3

Hayes
BPM -7.3 WS -1.1 PER 5.3

Is there any way to do those numbers for the games after Hayes came back from injury? Honestly just curious.

And I agree, Joseph’s play while he was here and overall isn’t as bad as some people make it out to be.

[440BB]

I see Joseph's minutes as lost development time for Cunningham, Hayes and Lee. If Joseph plays quite a bit and has good stats and we win a few more games it will cost us in the future with no near term benefit.

I watched the games and saw Joseph frequently keep the ball for 2/3 of the shot clock. Maybe it was due to his lack of familiarity with the players, arriving late in the season. That's not what I want to see out of the PG position if it continues. It's a bad example for our developing players.

I hadn't yelled "Pass the damn ball" at the TV since Reggie left until Joseph arrived.

[Manocad]

I think most people can agree different teams have different goals.

Since the team won’t be contending for anything, it seems more important to develop a highly invested asset (Killian) rather than trot out CoJo to get a few extra wins.

I’d argue that most people that want to see Hayes start and play heavy minutes are approaching it from that perspective.

Plus you could approach it from this standpoint...if Hayes sucks so badly that he can never be a good backcourt complement to Cade, how about you just...

...wait for it...

...LET HIM FAIL. For sure. Badly. On the biggest stage. Then all the naysayers can claim they were right, say "HA! I told you so!," rub it in, and make everyone else eat crow. Surely no one would argue that Cade playing 20, 30 or even half a season with Hayes starting next to him will have his growth stunted FOREVER, never to recover or become what he's capable of becoming. And along the way the Pistons lose games. Big whoop--that's what most people want, right? A high draft pick in 2022?

Or you start Cojo next to Cade because he's a better fit, better player than Hayes, whatever. To do...what? Win more games? Why?Become the long time future back court complement to Cade? Nope, that ain't happening.

But, but, but we have to start Cade and the best other 4 players while losing a lot of games, while being competitive, while playing all the younger players, while playing to win.

It’s literally that simple.

Exactly why I said I needed to create a spreadsheet of posters and log the gist of each of their arguments based on their posts, because I suspect we've got some contrarians here who are contradicting their own arguments in future posts.

[Pharaoh]

I get it, Cojo is old and slow and its pointless to play him. He pounds the rock and makes boing plays. But did any of you watch the games?
Like seriously?

There is no way if you actually watched the games, can say Hayes played better than CoJo.
Hayes had cooler highlight passes, he also turned the ball over twice as much as CoJo. Not turning it over is pretty important for a point guard. I get Hayes was a rookie so tough to judge a rookie, but he still turned the ball over a lot.

CoJo played out of his mind here, probably the best of his career. The dude shot over 50% as a Piston. 5.5 assists with 1.8 turnovers. He was super efficient. Advanced stats are crazier. Seriously not even close to compare the two.

CoJo
BPM 0.8 WS 1.4 PER 17.3

Hayes
BPM -7.3 WS -1.1 PER 5.3

To the bold:

Who said Hayes played better than CoJo?

Can you quote them cause I missed it

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[FloridaMan78]

i'm starting to be more of the mindset that we'll see hayes start but either CoJo or frank jackson (potentially diallo) finish games, depending on the matchup.

if they're comfortable with cade and grant leading the offense down the stretch they'll probably throw jackson or diallo out there and if they need more play making they'll throw CoJo out there. CoJo is easily the best PG we have at running an offense so i wouldn't be surprised if he finished a bunch of games for us, especially early in the season.

I disagree that CoJo is the best pg at running an offense. 'Floor general' is about the last thing I think of when I think of him. He's a scoring guard with a pg label. Hayes runs the offense better than him. So does Lee, for my money.

[FloridaMan78]

Maybe It’s just me, but I thought cojo wasnt great for the rest of the team last year. He dribbled for most of the shot clock and either looked for his shot or passed off for a last second shot. He hardly ran an offence or got many guys involved. I’m happy to be proved wrong because I haven’t checked the stats, but that’s the impression I had.

[FloridaMan78]

I see Joseph's minutes as lost development time for Cunningham, Hayes and Lee. If Joseph plays quite a bit and has good stats and we win a few more games it will cost us in the future with no near term benefit.

I watched the games and saw Joseph frequently keep the ball for 2/3 of the shot clock. Maybe it was due to his lack of familiarity with the players, arriving late in the season. That's not what I want to see out of the PG position if it continues. It's a bad example for our developing players.

I hadn't yelled "Pass the damn ball" at the TV since Reggie left until Joseph arrived.

Totally understand your point of development time, and do agree.

I just disagree with the point about keeping the ball too long. If anything that was Hayes problem last year, he just forced too many passes that just weren't there. He didn't have patience to pull it in and not make a bad pass and just take what the defense gives him. Thats what Joseph did and Hayes can learn that from him. CoJo's stats proves that he was efficiently effective by taking the right shots and not turning the ball over. Hayes needs to learn the right mix of patience and flash. Hayes should literally breakdown film on what shot CoJo made and work on those. If he did that, he would statistically be so much better.

Watch on YouTube

speaking of Reggie

Watch on YouTube

[Pharaoh]

I see Joseph's minutes as lost development time for Cunningham, Hayes and Lee. If Joseph plays quite a bit and has good stats and we win a few more games it will cost us in the future with no near term benefit.

I watched the games and saw Joseph frequently keep the ball for 2/3 of the shot clock. Maybe it was due to his lack of familiarity with the players, arriving late in the season. That's not what I want to see out of the PG position if it continues. It's a bad example for our developing players.

I hadn't yelled "Pass the damn ball" at the TV since Reggie left until Joseph arrived.

Totally understand your point of development time, and do agree.

I just disagree with the point about keeping the ball too long. If anything that was Hayes problem last year, he just forced too many passes that just weren't there. He didn't have patience to pull it in and not make a bad pass and just take what the defense gives him. Thats what Joseph did and Hayes can learn that from him. CoJo's stats proves that he was efficiently effective by taking the right shots and not turning the ball over. Hayes needs to learn the right mix of patience and flash. Hayes should literally breakdown film on what shot CoJo made and work on those. If he did that, he would statistically be so much better.

Watch on YouTube

speaking of Reggie

Watch on YouTube

Appreciate you quoting the guys who said Hayes was a better PG than CoJo.

Also appreciate you posting those highlights.

For me CoJo should not be playing and instead should take the role of mentor or player/coach

We have Hayes, Cade, Lee, Diallo & FJ at guard and all of them need minutes to develop.

We don't need CoJo out there contributing to wins (or losses) - we need him educating the kids.

Playing the long game here.

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[A_dub06]

https://www.detroitbadboys.com/2021/8/26/22641441/detroit-pistons-cade-cunningham-killian-hayes-dennis-smith-jr-conundrum

Interesting article likening Hayes situation on this team with DSJ when Luka arrived. Worth the read and make points some here have already made.

[Pharaoh]

https://www.detroitbadboys.com/2021/8/26/22641441/detroit-pistons-cade-cunningham-killian-hayes-dennis-smith-jr-conundrum

Interesting article likening Hayes situation on this team with DSJ when Luka arrived. Worth the read and make points some here have already made.

Good article that looks at all angles for a change.

This season is a important developmental year for so many on our roster. We've got time if we've got the patience

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[FloridaMan78]

I see Joseph's minutes as lost development time for Cunningham, Hayes and Lee. If Joseph plays quite a bit and has good stats and we win a few more games it will cost us in the future with no near term benefit.

I watched the games and saw Joseph frequently keep the ball for 2/3 of the shot clock. Maybe it was due to his lack of familiarity with the players, arriving late in the season. That's not what I want to see out of the PG position if it continues. It's a bad example for our developing players.

I hadn't yelled "Pass the damn ball" at the TV since Reggie left until Joseph arrived.

Totally understand your point of development time, and do agree.

I just disagree with the point about keeping the ball too long. If anything that was Hayes problem last year, he just forced too many passes that just weren't there. He didn't have patience to pull it in and not make a bad pass and just take what the defense gives him. Thats what Joseph did and Hayes can learn that from him. CoJo's stats proves that he was efficiently effective by taking the right shots and not turning the ball over. Hayes needs to learn the right mix of patience and flash. Hayes should literally breakdown film on what shot CoJo made and work on those. If he did that, he would statistically be so much better.

Watch on YouTube

speaking of Reggie

Watch on YouTube

Appreciate you quoting the guys who said Hayes was a better PG than CoJo.

Also appreciate you posting those highlights.

For me CoJo should not be playing and instead should take the role of mentor or player/coach

We have Hayes, Cade, Lee, Diallo & FJ at guard and all of them need minutes to develop.

We don't need CoJo out there contributing to wins (or losses) - we need him educating the kids.

Playing the long game here.

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app

Yea I agree, I don’t want to watch CoJo at all next year. I just think we should call it what it is, a youth movement. No reason to bs and say CoJo wasn’t good and Hayes was better, it’s just not true. I hope next year Hayes is actually better than CoJo but that’s pretty doubtful. We’ll see if Casey follows through and plays the young guys, I have my doubts Casey doesn’t lean on CoJo some next year.

[Pharaoh]

Totally understand your point of development time, and do agree.

I just disagree with the point about keeping the ball too long. If anything that was Hayes problem last year, he just forced too many passes that just weren't there. He didn't have patience to pull it in and not make a bad pass and just take what the defense gives him. Thats what Joseph did and Hayes can learn that from him. CoJo's stats proves that he was efficiently effective by taking the right shots and not turning the ball over. Hayes needs to learn the right mix of patience and flash. Hayes should literally breakdown film on what shot CoJo made and work on those. If he did that, he would statistically be so much better.

Watch on YouTube

speaking of Reggie

Watch on YouTube

Appreciate you quoting the guys who said Hayes was a better PG than CoJo.

Also appreciate you posting those highlights.

For me CoJo should not be playing and instead should take the role of mentor or player/coach

We have Hayes, Cade, Lee, Diallo & FJ at guard and all of them need minutes to develop.

We don't need CoJo out there contributing to wins (or losses) - we need him educating the kids.

Playing the long game here.

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app

Yea I agree, I don’t want to watch CoJo at all next year. I just think we should call it what it is, a youth movement. No reason to bs and say CoJo wasn’t good and Hayes was better, it’s just not true. I hope next year Hayes is actually better than CoJo but that’s pretty doubtful. We’ll see if Casey follows through and plays the young guys, I have my doubts Casey doesn’t lean on CoJo some next year.

Think Hayes is better defensively already.

Offensively Hayes has a lot to work on and should be given a "fair" amount of time to develop.

You can bet your life that after 26 games no one will be rushing to judge Cade, just as they weren't rushing to judge Stewart or Bey.

Hayes strengths don't really show up in a box score though so easier to trash him.

I will note that my mention of his deflections got zero response from anyone....and it's because apparently Hayes gets the same (or extremely close) to the same number of deflections as Jrue Holiday, who is universally regarded as one of the best defensive guards in the league.

Now watch someone turn this post into a strawman and claim I'm putting Hayes on his level

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[Canadafan]

The future is Stewart Grant Bey Cade Hayes
With Lee FJ Diallo JJ Sekou Garza possible pieces.
CoJo Olynyk should be showcased, even if just off the bench, for the first half of year and then dealt for another young piece or two

[Southern Piston]

I think you start Hayes for a whole season or at least half before you change. Like others said it’s worth it to give him time, if it fails, we are drafting better and next season we’re pushing to win more. I think if he gets his offensive game together this could be a top tier starting guards in a couple years.

[dVs33]

Maybe It’s just me, but I thought cojo wasnt great for the rest of the team last year. He dribbled for most of the shot clock and either looked for his shot or passed off for a last second shot. He hardly ran an offence or got many guys involved. I’m happy to be proved wrong because I haven’t checked the stats, but that’s the impression I had.

I didn’t mention hayes in this post. Cojo has been around for a while, so he’s going to be more polished than hayes right now.
Cojo probably played his best basketball here at the end of the year, but I think we can agree that he isn’t the answer at pg long term.
I would prefer hayes to start because he has more potential than cojo not because he’s a better player now.

[DetroitDon15]

Maybe It’s just me, but I thought cojo wasnt great for the rest of the team last year. He dribbled for most of the shot clock and either looked for his shot or passed off for a last second shot. He hardly ran an offence or got many guys involved. I’m happy to be proved wrong because I haven’t checked the stats, but that’s the impression I had.

I didn’t mention hayes in this post. Cojo has been around for a while, so he’s going to be more polished than hayes right now.
Cojo probably played his best basketball here at the end of the year, but I think we can agree that he isn’t the answer at pg long term.
I would prefer hayes to start because he has more potential than cojo not because he’s a better player now.

I’d rather have Cunningham at the 1 with Diallo at the 2 with Hayes off the bench. I like Diallo’s upside more than Hayes. I don’t think Hayes can be the starting PG on a playoff team.

[FloridaMan78]

Maybe It’s just me, but I thought cojo wasnt great for the rest of the team last year. He dribbled for most of the shot clock and either looked for his shot or passed off for a last second shot. He hardly ran an offence or got many guys involved. I’m happy to be proved wrong because I haven’t checked the stats, but that’s the impression I had.

I didn’t mention hayes in this post. Cojo has been around for a while, so he’s going to be more polished than hayes right now.
Cojo probably played his best basketball here at the end of the year, but I think we can agree that he isn’t the answer at pg long term.
I would prefer hayes to start because he has more potential than cojo not because he’s a better player now.

Yea I quoted that showing the general thought that CoJo played bad for us, when by statistics and when I watched the games, he played really well. Might not of been pretty, but he was very efficient and ran the offense very well.