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Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST

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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#121 » by 440BB » Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:20 pm

I wonder how different the conversations would be if Hayes was drafted at 37 with Lee at 38.

I'd like to see Joseph, Hayes and Lee get equal minutes for now, possibly rotating who starts until the lineups sort themselves out. That might take some of the pressure off Hayes while he rounds out his game. It also demonstrates whether Lee's improved outside shooting is more than a fluke. That probably won't happen as Casey seems to want two specific units, but if injuries get Lee on the floor once again I expect he'll be a solid contributor.

Leaving Lee out of the rotation when he's showing he's upgraded his outside shooting makes no sense to me. He offers an energy and scoring threat that could make him much more valuable to the Pistons and others if given the minutes.

It's interesting that Hayes had some of his best games and seemed to enjoy playing next to Lee. I hope both get the same amount of developmental attention going forward. If both work hard and develop into effective players everybody wins, whether they contribute here or become assets to help upgrade the roster. Good thing that this is another year of development, possibly next year too.

It no longer matters where they were drafted, more what they become from that point.
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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#122 » by bstein14 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:35 pm

vic wrote:Saben is definitely the truth, you could see it last year.

This is why to this day I’m confused that Cory Joseph is back on this team.

Between Killian, Cade, and Saben there are definitely enough ball handlers on the team.

I get having “A” solid vet for the locker room but you don’t need to clog up playing time at every single position.

Hopefully Cory Joseph is off to a help a contender by the trade deadline.

I’m all in for BEN Lee as the backup pg.


You usually run with 3 PGs on a team... two are usually in the rotation, and one is the 3rd stringer that jumps in the mix in case of injury. The fact that Casey commented about Lee playing with the Cruise some this season, and the fact that Lee is on a 3 year minimum contract with the third year being a team option makes me think that Weaver thought Lee was going to be that 3rd stringer that possibly moves into the backup role once CoJo is gone. I think its fairly likely he exceeds those expectations. If so, Weaver has shown he will make moves to make more time for younger players as he did when he traded away Plumlee to open up the starting spot for Stewart.
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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#123 » by Sort » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:01 pm

You know I see a real avenue of PT for Lee after watching tonight, assuming he can be consistent. He just looked in charge of the Pistons and played mostly a spot-on job guarding Rose last night - still not an easy cover for anyone. The truth is that Pistons are exceptionally vulnerable to quick ones, and if he mans up defensively, limiting their success while running the team well and making the right reads, he's going to send Killian to the bench quickly.

I'm more excited to see Lee's progression at this point than Hayes, who still looks too much of a bonehead for me to get behind.
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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#124 » by flow » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:45 pm

Pistonrings wrote:
bstein14 wrote:
Pistonrings wrote:
He's NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the defender or the passer that Hayes is, unreal. Saban Is a bench guy, this is totally obvious. But by all means, let's take this back up on opening night and you can have some fun when the 2nd rounder starts over the 7th overall pick who has much better size, reach, vision, rebounding, defense and passing.

I mean, it's obvious that Weaver and Casey weren't dreaming of Killian and Cade being an awesome defensive backcourt duo when they drafted Cade, they were dreaming of Saban and Cade being the backcourt of the future.

When Casey talked all summer about how he thought Killian and Cade would work well together he really meant to say Saban and Cade. And now clearly that Hayes came back off an injury in his first PREASON game and only scored 6 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds and 2 steals (more points that Jalen Green had the same night in more minutes) this was what Casey and Weaver were hoping for, that they would use that 1 preseason game to bench their no 7 draft pick with good size, good reach, very good passing and very good defense and very good court vision and bring in the 2nd rounder to start with Cade.

Yeah, I am sure you will enjoy opening night.


Just because someone is drafted #7 it doesn't mean they should be gifted a starting spot in year two. It's time to earn it or get off the court. If 22 year old Saban Lee goes out on a nightly basis and earns it and outperforms Hayes he should be given the keys to the castle irregardless of where both players were drafted.

Saban scored 14 points tonight in 28 minutes, and during Killian's entire rookie season he only score 14+ points once and that was in a game he played 38 minutes and turned it over 7 times that game.

Saban also has been a solid defender. I don't see any type of significant advantage for Hayes in that area at all and advanced statistics back that up.

If you look at defensive rebounding rate, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes last season.
If you look at steal %, Saban Lee and Killian Hayes were exactly the same.
If you look at block % Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Win Shares" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Box Plus/Minus" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Value over a Replacement Player" or VORP, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes. (Killian was 2nd worst on the team only player he was better than was Sekou)

Killian Hayes also was the most inefficient scorer in the entire league, have the worst TS%. He also was the 2nd worst in the entire league at turning the ball over.

He was just really, really bad last year. It doesn't mean he can't be much better this season... and he's younger than Saban Lee by two years... but right now and last year Saban Lee was/is very clearly the better player. Perhaps when Killian is 22 like Saban is now, in two years, Killian will be better than Saban is currently... but he very clearly isn't better yet.


And these numbers you didn't post links to, uh, how many games did Killian's play in last year? Oh that's right, 26 games. Killian is bigger, clearly a better defender, better passer and has far better vision.

But again, your point will be proven when Saban starts over Killian alongside Cade, right?. So we don't have long to wait for Saban to be starting the regular season over Killian with injuries not a factor.


Hold on. Are you trying to imply that Killian starting over Saben is proof that he's been the better player?

.
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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#125 » by bstein14 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:12 pm

FloridaMan78 wrote:In 48 games last year Saben Lee was 8/23 from three

In his 5 summer league and 3 preseason games he was 12/25

Really happy for him to see the work he put in during the off-season paying off.


When asked about what he worked on over the summer the first thing he said was 3 point shooting. It's obvious that was a focal point.
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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#126 » by DBC10 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:28 pm

bstein14 wrote:
FloridaMan78 wrote:In 48 games last year Saben Lee was 8/23 from three

In his 5 summer league and 3 preseason games he was 12/25

Really happy for him to see the work he put in during the off-season paying off.


When asked about what he worked on over the summer the first thing he said was 3 point shooting. It's obvious that was a focal point.


He still has his weird hitch like he's catapulting that thing and doesn't look like a smooth jumper, akin to say, Klay Thompson, but it works for him.

As long as they go in, keep letting it fly
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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#127 » by FloridaMan78 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:03 am

bstein14 wrote:
FloridaMan78 wrote:In 48 games last year Saben Lee was 8/23 from three

In his 5 summer league and 3 preseason games he was 12/25

Really happy for him to see the work he put in during the off-season paying off.


When asked about what he worked on over the summer the first thing he said was 3 point shooting. It's obvious that was a focal point.


I think that changes things. If Saben keeps his shooting percentage up, he will be able to space the floor better than Killian. Teams won’t be able to pack the paint.

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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#128 » by mattao313 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:35 am

Manocad wrote:
mattao313 wrote:Pistonrings must be Killian's dad. LMAO

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If that's true then we have a few members here who must be Killian's hump and dumps.

The point remains that dumping a #7 draft pick with high potential because he isn't performing the way you want him to after 20-something games for any player who might be playing a little better right now but is likely a bench player in the NBA makes no sense. Especially when everyone is saying this is still a rebuilding year, wins don't mean anything because this team doesn't appear close to contending this year, need to draft another (hopefully) superstar, Hayes hasn't spent any legitimate time on the floor with Cade, etc. In other words, people talking out of both sides of their face. I'd continue to ask the same question--what is the harm in letting Hayes start with Cade for half a season? More losses? Big deal. "It will hinder Cade's development"? BS. The role Cade will play doesn't require ANY specific player next to him in order for him to develop. It will only be a question of what stats he'll put up. Does Cade get worse at driving the lane or shooting the ball because defenses are collapsing on him, knowing the guard next to him can't shoot well? No. If anything that will make him BETTER because he'll have to work harder to be more successful.

By all means, anyone can have an opinion that Hayes won't live up to his potential and absolutely may be right. But no one can argue that to be true at this point. The idea that anyone knows what any player's career will be like after 20-some games is ridiculous outside of the bona fide, can't miss monster players. And even then it's still something of an unknown. Thought they were going to be stars and were cooked by 25? Ralph Sampson, Pervis Ellison, Eddy Curry, Harold Miner. The average amount of time taken to make an All Star game? 5 years. Which falls right in line with an NBA player's average peak age of 27.

And I'll continue to throw the caveat out there that I am NOT a Hayes fan boy. I didn't even know who he was when he was drafted and it's no skin off my nose if he does turn out to be a bust; I want the team to be good. I'm simply arguing the point that not only is it too soon to bail on him as a starter, but it doesn't even make sense from any standpoint.
I feel like you're contradicting yourself. How are you going to judge Saben as only a bench player but don't like it when people criticize Hayes? Saben has shown more so far it's more than ok for him to get playing time over Hayes. Just because he was the 7th pick doesn't change the fact he's been out played by another young guy.

No one said ship him off either but coming off the bench or playing in the g league isn't a bad option considering how bad he has looked.

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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#129 » by Manocad » Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:31 am

mattao313 wrote:
Manocad wrote:
mattao313 wrote:Pistonrings must be Killian's dad. LMAO

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using RealGM mobile app

If that's true then we have a few members here who must be Killian's hump and dumps.

The point remains that dumping a #7 draft pick with high potential because he isn't performing the way you want him to after 20-something games for any player who might be playing a little better right now but is likely a bench player in the NBA makes no sense. Especially when everyone is saying this is still a rebuilding year, wins don't mean anything because this team doesn't appear close to contending this year, need to draft another (hopefully) superstar, Hayes hasn't spent any legitimate time on the floor with Cade, etc. In other words, people talking out of both sides of their face. I'd continue to ask the same question--what is the harm in letting Hayes start with Cade for half a season? More losses? Big deal. "It will hinder Cade's development"? BS. The role Cade will play doesn't require ANY specific player next to him in order for him to develop. It will only be a question of what stats he'll put up. Does Cade get worse at driving the lane or shooting the ball because defenses are collapsing on him, knowing the guard next to him can't shoot well? No. If anything that will make him BETTER because he'll have to work harder to be more successful.

By all means, anyone can have an opinion that Hayes won't live up to his potential and absolutely may be right. But no one can argue that to be true at this point. The idea that anyone knows what any player's career will be like after 20-some games is ridiculous outside of the bona fide, can't miss monster players. And even then it's still something of an unknown. Thought they were going to be stars and were cooked by 25? Ralph Sampson, Pervis Ellison, Eddy Curry, Harold Miner. The average amount of time taken to make an All Star game? 5 years. Which falls right in line with an NBA player's average peak age of 27.

And I'll continue to throw the caveat out there that I am NOT a Hayes fan boy. I didn't even know who he was when he was drafted and it's no skin off my nose if he does turn out to be a bust; I want the team to be good. I'm simply arguing the point that not only is it too soon to bail on him as a starter, but it doesn't even make sense from any standpoint.
I feel like you're contradicting yourself. How are you going to judge Saben as only a bench player but don't like it when people criticize Hayes? Saben has shown more so far it's more than ok for him to get playing time over Hayes. Just because he was the 7th pick doesn't change the fact he's been out played by another young guy.

No one said ship him off either but coming off the bench or playing in the g league isn't a bad option considering how bad he has looked.

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I have never ever said any criticism of Hayes was unwarranted. He clearly hasn't played very well in the grand scheme and that's not arguable. I have also clearly stated that I am not a Hayes fan boy in any way; I don't give a hoot who says what about him. I have only ever made one point--that it's too early to decide that Hayes needs to be deemed a bust and traded or sent down to the G-league, because he's played 20-something games. PERIOD. Is it possible that a #38 pick outplays a #7 pick, earns the starting spot and becomes the Pistons' guard of the future next to Cade? Absolutely. That doesn't bother me in the least; I want the Pistons to become a better team. But that's not decided after 20-some games. As far as where you'd project a #38 pick given the team Lee was drafted into, I don't think it's a stretch to say he'd be projected to be a bench player.

So I'll pose the same questions to you that I pose to everyone who has given up on Hayes and which NONE OF YOU HAVE ANSWERED YET--what is to be gained by giving up on Hayes? More wins now? They don't mean a damn thing; they only hurt next year's draft position. Hayes playing badly harms Cade's development? Baloney. And oh yeah--Hayes hasn't even played with Cade yet in what would be projected as the starting lineup so no one knows yet how it will work out.

I would bet any amount of money that Hayes was drafted under the idea that he'd be the starting PG moving forward. Regardless of how Saben Lee has played--unless he exploded out of the gate and started playing like a starter, which he hasn't--GM's don't give up on a #7 draft pick after 20-some games.
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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#130 » by mattao313 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:20 am

Manocad wrote:
mattao313 wrote:
Manocad wrote:If that's true then we have a few members here who must be Killian's hump and dumps.

The point remains that dumping a #7 draft pick with high potential because he isn't performing the way you want him to after 20-something games for any player who might be playing a little better right now but is likely a bench player in the NBA makes no sense. Especially when everyone is saying this is still a rebuilding year, wins don't mean anything because this team doesn't appear close to contending this year, need to draft another (hopefully) superstar, Hayes hasn't spent any legitimate time on the floor with Cade, etc. In other words, people talking out of both sides of their face. I'd continue to ask the same question--what is the harm in letting Hayes start with Cade for half a season? More losses? Big deal. "It will hinder Cade's development"? BS. The role Cade will play doesn't require ANY specific player next to him in order for him to develop. It will only be a question of what stats he'll put up. Does Cade get worse at driving the lane or shooting the ball because defenses are collapsing on him, knowing the guard next to him can't shoot well? No. If anything that will make him BETTER because he'll have to work harder to be more successful.

By all means, anyone can have an opinion that Hayes won't live up to his potential and absolutely may be right. But no one can argue that to be true at this point. The idea that anyone knows what any player's career will be like after 20-some games is ridiculous outside of the bona fide, can't miss monster players. And even then it's still something of an unknown. Thought they were going to be stars and were cooked by 25? Ralph Sampson, Pervis Ellison, Eddy Curry, Harold Miner. The average amount of time taken to make an All Star game? 5 years. Which falls right in line with an NBA player's average peak age of 27.

And I'll continue to throw the caveat out there that I am NOT a Hayes fan boy. I didn't even know who he was when he was drafted and it's no skin off my nose if he does turn out to be a bust; I want the team to be good. I'm simply arguing the point that not only is it too soon to bail on him as a starter, but it doesn't even make sense from any standpoint.
I feel like you're contradicting yourself. How are you going to judge Saben as only a bench player but don't like it when people criticize Hayes? Saben has shown more so far it's more than ok for him to get playing time over Hayes. Just because he was the 7th pick doesn't change the fact he's been out played by another young guy.

No one said ship him off either but coming off the bench or playing in the g league isn't a bad option considering how bad he has looked.

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I have never ever said any criticism of Hayes was unwarranted. He clearly hasn't played very well in the grand scheme and that's not arguable. I have also clearly stated that I am not a Hayes fan boy in any way; I don't give a hoot who says what about him. I have only ever made one point--that it's too early to decide that Hayes needs to be deemed a bust and traded or sent down to the G-league, because he's played 20-something games. PERIOD. Is it possible that a #38 pick outplays a #7 pick, earns the starting spot and becomes the Pistons' guard of the future next to Cade? Absolutely. That doesn't bother me in the least; I want the Pistons to become a better team. But that's not decided after 20-some games. As far as where you'd project a #38 pick given the team Lee was drafted into, I don't think it's a stretch to say he'd be projected to be a bench player.

So I'll pose the same questions to you that I pose to everyone who has given up on Hayes and which NONE OF YOU HAVE ANSWERED YET--what is to be gained by giving up on Hayes? More wins now? They don't mean a damn thing; they only hurt next year's draft position. Hayes playing badly harms Cade's development? Baloney. And oh yeah--Hayes hasn't even played with Cade yet in what would be projected as the starting lineup so no one knows yet how it will work out.

I would bet any amount of money that Hayes was drafted under the idea that he'd be the starting PG moving forward. Regardless of how Saben Lee has played--unless he exploded out of the gate and started playing like a starter, which he hasn't--GM's don't give up on a #7 draft pick after 20-some games.
Of course Hayes was drafted to potentially be pgotf that doesn't mean projections can't change. 20 games whatever Hayes has been beyond just bad for a rookie that's what keeps on being overlooked. 26 games last season looked terrible so far played lower comp in summer league looks the same. At this point him being the 7th doesn't mean as much cause he clearly hasn't shown the talent to keep spoon feeding him minutes over a guy that overall has outplayed him simple as that. I'd rather see what Saben can do rather than watch Hayes barely be able to dribble up the court. Coming off the bench playing lesser comp or even going to the g league to gain some confidence seems more appropriate.

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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#131 » by tmorgan » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:15 am

Killian can be a disruptive defender. He has quick hands for sure. What he doesn’t have, that Lee does, is quick feet. He can’t stay in front of quicker guards right now, and getting bigger isn’t going to help him with that.

The problem we’ll eventually face is that Cade certainly isn’t quick enough to guard point either. Someone’s got to do it.
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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#132 » by Collymore » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:27 am

vic wrote:Saben is definitely the truth, you could see it last year.

This is why to this day I’m confused that Cory Joseph is back on this team.

Between Killian, Cade, and Saben there are definitely enough ball handlers on the team.

I get having “A” solid vet for the locker room but you don’t need to clog up playing time at every single position.

Hopefully Cory Joseph is off to a help a contender by the trade deadline.

I’m all in for BEN Lee as the backup pg.

And hear the crowd sing Ben Lee tulibu dibu douchoo.

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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#133 » by Manocad » Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:12 am

mattao313 wrote:
Manocad wrote:
mattao313 wrote:I feel like you're contradicting yourself. How are you going to judge Saben as only a bench player but don't like it when people criticize Hayes? Saben has shown more so far it's more than ok for him to get playing time over Hayes. Just because he was the 7th pick doesn't change the fact he's been out played by another young guy.

No one said ship him off either but coming off the bench or playing in the g league isn't a bad option considering how bad he has looked.

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I have never ever said any criticism of Hayes was unwarranted. He clearly hasn't played very well in the grand scheme and that's not arguable. I have also clearly stated that I am not a Hayes fan boy in any way; I don't give a hoot who says what about him. I have only ever made one point--that it's too early to decide that Hayes needs to be deemed a bust and traded or sent down to the G-league, because he's played 20-something games. PERIOD. Is it possible that a #38 pick outplays a #7 pick, earns the starting spot and becomes the Pistons' guard of the future next to Cade? Absolutely. That doesn't bother me in the least; I want the Pistons to become a better team. But that's not decided after 20-some games. As far as where you'd project a #38 pick given the team Lee was drafted into, I don't think it's a stretch to say he'd be projected to be a bench player.

So I'll pose the same questions to you that I pose to everyone who has given up on Hayes and which NONE OF YOU HAVE ANSWERED YET--what is to be gained by giving up on Hayes? More wins now? They don't mean a damn thing; they only hurt next year's draft position. Hayes playing badly harms Cade's development? Baloney. And oh yeah--Hayes hasn't even played with Cade yet in what would be projected as the starting lineup so no one knows yet how it will work out.

I would bet any amount of money that Hayes was drafted under the idea that he'd be the starting PG moving forward. Regardless of how Saben Lee has played--unless he exploded out of the gate and started playing like a starter, which he hasn't--GM's don't give up on a #7 draft pick after 20-some games.
Of course Hayes was drafted to potentially be pgotf that doesn't mean projections can't change. 20 games whatever Hayes has been beyond just bad for a rookie that's what keeps on being overlooked. 26 games last season looked terrible so far played lower comp in summer league looks the same. At this point him being the 7th doesn't mean as much cause he clearly hasn't shown the talent to keep spoon feeding him minutes over a guy that overall has outplayed him simple as that. I'd rather see what Saben can do rather than watch Hayes barely be able to dribble up the court. Coming off the bench playing lesser comp or even going to the g league to gain some confidence seems more appropriate.

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20-some games doesn't count as "keep spoon feeding him minutes."

And of course, you didn't answer the questions. Shocker.
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Re: Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST 

Post#134 » by bstein14 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:29 pm

tmorgan wrote:Killian can be a disruptive defender. He has quick hands for sure. What he doesn’t have, that Lee does, is quick feet. He can’t stay in front of quicker guards right now, and getting bigger isn’t going to help him with that.

The problem we’ll eventually face is that Cade certainly isn’t quick enough to guard point either. Someone’s got to do it.


My concern as well seeing Hayes with more muscle this season. Also the quickness and agility needed to pop over/under screens to better defend against the pick and roll/pop game. I think he is an aggressive defender that tries hard and has active hands on that end. But most great defenders also are athletes. It feels like Hayes may need to work on his lateral quickness the same way Garza has been working to improve his lateral quickness.

Also, I think Cade will be ok defending either guard position, and some SFs in the league as well. His height and length will allow him to still contest some smaller guys the same way Prince was able to defend guys like AI.

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