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Game 1: Bulls (0-0) @ Pistons (0-0) - Oct. 20 7:00 PM EST

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Re: Game 1: Bulls (0-0) @ Pistons (0-0) - Oct. 20 7:00 PM EST 

Post#221 » by zeebneeb » Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:18 pm

DTP wrote:
FloridaMan78 wrote:Killian took zero three pointers. That equals zero spacing. Every pick and roll they ran for him the defender went under and didn’t even need to shade. Every time Killian drove the lane he took a fade away layup. The lob play worked because Vuvcic is an awful defender and helped on Killian when he didn’t need to, which they then fixed and never happened again. Killian has to be some type of threat or else the defense will always play the pass. Pick and rolls work because off ball defense needs to help, except with Killian they don’t need to. But yea let’s run more pick and rolls for him.


I just went back and rewatched the game and tracked every possession Killian was put in PnR. First, I'll say Casey did actually put him in more than what I originally thought and he was decently efficient in it, we got good looks for the most part.

Pick & Rolls including Hayes
1st qrt:
- Bulls switched Ball onto Grant and led to a Grant post up on Ball. That's exactly what we want, Grant just missed the shot.
- Stewart rolled and missed the layup but got his rebound and put it back in. Hayes doesn't get an assist here because Stewart blew the first layup but this is essentially created by Hayes.
- Killian drove left and got Ball in the air on a great shot fake, the shot just rimmed out. Great aggressive move that looked good, shot just didn't fall.
- Lonzo got over the screen, so no switch was forced. Killian drew Vucevic, which is what your ball handler is supposed to do (draw 2) but Stewart didn't create any space either rolling or popping so we got nothing out of it. Stewart has to get better setting picks and I'll expand on that later.

2nd qrt:
- First time Killian is in with Kelly & Trey and we run a good stagger screen with both of them creating switches and mismatches for both Trey and Kelly. Kelly had Ball on him and Trey had Dosunmo on him, EXACTLY what we want. Killian wasnt patience enough though to allow Kelly to post up, he instead swung it to Frank in the corner and led to LaVine blocking Frank's 3pt attempt. That's fixable though, the kid hasn't played 30 games lets remember.

- Not a pick and roll but Killian caught the ball in the right corner and drove hard to the rim drawing multiple guys and kicked it out to Frank at the top of the key who missed a wide open 3. Killian driving hard right is something we didn't see a lot last year and he got a wide open shot to one of the best shooters on the team, Frank just missed it.

- Killian attacked hard going left, pulled up for a midrange and missed. Totally okay with this shot and liked his aggressiveness here, just missed the shot.

- First set out of a timeout was a Horn set, which was the only real play call for him that I could clearly tell all night. This is what led to the lob to Stewart, which I don't think any other player on the team can make that pass.....great execution by Killian and play call by Casey. I don't think I've seen anyone else throw lobs to Stewart, ever.

3rd qrt:
- Killian attacks hard off of the screen and beats Zo but floats away instead of aggressively attacking the rim....NOT a good shot. But he did fight and get the offensive rebound, which led to him kicking out to an wide open Bey for 3 and Bey missed. It was the only open catch and shoot opportunity for Bey all night that I noticed.

- Killian snaked the pick and roll, attacking Vucevic hard going left but missed...was a good contest by a 7 footer. I liked his aggressiveness in the action, he just missed the shot.


Overall, he took care of the ball (only 2 turnovers), pressure from Caruso and Ball (two really good defenders) didn't bother him at all, which is huge improvement from last year. He took 1 bad shot and simply couldn't get the other 5 to fall. Defensively he was fantastic, Ball 12pts and none of them came scored on Killian with the exception of a putback layup that Stewart should've gotten the rebound.

While it sucks seeing 0pts in a boxscore, if you actually watch the actions that he's involved in it's not awful. He's not going to be a boxscore stuffer right now and that's fine, I just want to see him continue to improve and tonight I saw that (defensively, ball handling, the way he attacked). He's essentially the 4th or 5th option on the floor, so he's not going to force things.

Stewart on the other hand, has to improve at setting picks to help Killian's development. I put the blame on Stewart because we pretty much got the same results no matter who the ball handler was (Hayes, Bey, Grant, or Joseph). He doesn't set good picks, which doesn't create much separation for the roll and his shot isn't respected enough to really create space on the pop. Killian more times than not did his job my getting the switches that we want, other guys didn't make shots.
That's great, i did the exact same thing. Lol.

When rewatching the game, I noticed as well that Stewart, especially for his size, sets terrible screens as they are not definitive enough, in terms of what he is setting out to do. A screen, is not just a screen, but different angles, and durations have massive implications on the action.

As bad as Andre was at times, he set awesome screens when engaged, and it would open up Killian and other players a ton if he was doing them. Stewart should start doing the pick and pop not for the three, but for the 15 footer to start games. It would force his man out onto the edge of the paint.

Great writeup again, and agreed on Stewart. His picks should be definitive. Don't move, just peel the guy off the ball handler, and immediately rescreen if necessary.
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Re: Game 1: Bulls (0-0) @ Pistons (0-0) - Oct. 20 7:00 PM EST 

Post#222 » by DBC10 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:24 pm

FloridaMan78 wrote:Killian took zero three pointers. That equals zero spacing. Every pick and roll they ran for him the defender went under and didn’t even need to shade. Every time Killian drove the lane he took a fade away layup. The lob play worked because Vuvcic is an awful defender and helped on Killian when he didn’t need to, which they then fixed and never happened again. Killian has to be some type of threat or else the defense will always play the pass. Pick and rolls work because off ball defense needs to help, except with Killian they don’t need to. But yea let’s run more pick and rolls for him.




It was a nice play, but yep, they adjusted and it didn't happen again essentially. Surprised Caruso even stuck to him so hard instead of switching since you'd want to dare Hayes to shoot the 3 in an ideal situation
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Re: Game 1: Bulls (0-0) @ Pistons (0-0) - Oct. 20 7:00 PM EST 

Post#223 » by DTP » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:57 am

DBC10 wrote:
FloridaMan78 wrote:Killian took zero three pointers. That equals zero spacing. Every pick and roll they ran for him the defender went under and didn’t even need to shade. Every time Killian drove the lane he took a fade away layup. The lob play worked because Vuvcic is an awful defender and helped on Killian when he didn’t need to, which they then fixed and never happened again. Killian has to be some type of threat or else the defense will always play the pass. Pick and rolls work because off ball defense needs to help, except with Killian they don’t need to. But yea let’s run more pick and rolls for him.




It was a nice play, but yep, they adjusted and it didn't happen again essentially. Surprised Caruso even stuck to him so hard instead of switching since you'd want to dare Hayes to shoot the 3 in an ideal situation


That's a really good video explaining the horns action and I mentioned in my previous post as well. If Chicago switches any of those screens, Killian has done his job because it would've created huge mismatches in our favor. The first screen would've switched Caruso onto Stewart (so Stewart just could walk him down to the paint and easy 2) or Caruso on the Grant, which should ideally work in our favorite. If Vuce doesn't step up with Killian coming at him, it's a wide open layup so once again he did his job by drawing another defender, leading to the ally which as I said, I don't think anyone on our roster can make that pass better than Killian.

This was great action that put Killian in position to take advantage of his strength...we never saw Hayes in the horns action again for the rest of the game, so I disagree that Chicago adjusted. It's clear that Hayes isn't a great shooter yet but teams are still guarding him...the ideal that we're playing 4 on 5 really isn't true at all and this play shows that.
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Re: Game 1: Bulls (0-0) @ Pistons (0-0) - Oct. 20 7:00 PM EST 

Post#224 » by FloridaMan78 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:17 am

DTP wrote:
DBC10 wrote:
FloridaMan78 wrote:Killian took zero three pointers. That equals zero spacing. Every pick and roll they ran for him the defender went under and didn’t even need to shade. Every time Killian drove the lane he took a fade away layup. The lob play worked because Vuvcic is an awful defender and helped on Killian when he didn’t need to, which they then fixed and never happened again. Killian has to be some type of threat or else the defense will always play the pass. Pick and rolls work because off ball defense needs to help, except with Killian they don’t need to. But yea let’s run more pick and rolls for him.




It was a nice play, but yep, they adjusted and it didn't happen again essentially. Surprised Caruso even stuck to him so hard instead of switching since you'd want to dare Hayes to shoot the 3 in an ideal situation


That's a really good video explaining the horns action and I mentioned in my previous post as well. If Chicago switches any of those screens, Killian has done his job because it would've created huge mismatches in our favor. The first screen would've switched Caruso onto Stewart (so Stewart just could walk him down to the paint and easy 2) or Caruso on the Grant, which should ideally work in our favorite. If Vuce doesn't step up with Killian coming at him, it's a wide open layup so once again he did his job by drawing another defender, leading to the ally which as I said, I don't think anyone on our roster can make that pass better than Killian.

This was great action that put Killian in position to take advantage of his strength...we never saw Hayes in the horns action again for the rest of the game, so I disagree that Chicago adjusted. It's clear that Hayes isn't a great shooter yet but teams are still guarding him...the ideal that we're playing 4 on 5 really isn't true at all and this play shows that.


Yea the YouTuber forgot to mention the other option. Make Killian beat you. He didn't score a point all night. Let Killian come into the lane and shoot his fadeaway layup, fake the help with Vucecic but stay on Beef Stew and watch it clank off the rim.
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Re: Game 1: Bulls (0-0) @ Pistons (0-0) - Oct. 20 7:00 PM EST 

Post#225 » by DTP » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:29 am

FloridaMan78 wrote:
DTP wrote:
DBC10 wrote:


It was a nice play, but yep, they adjusted and it didn't happen again essentially. Surprised Caruso even stuck to him so hard instead of switching since you'd want to dare Hayes to shoot the 3 in an ideal situation


That's a really good video explaining the horns action and I mentioned in my previous post as well. If Chicago switches any of those screens, Killian has done his job because it would've created huge mismatches in our favor. The first screen would've switched Caruso onto Stewart (so Stewart just could walk him down to the paint and easy 2) or Caruso on the Grant, which should ideally work in our favorite. If Vuce doesn't step up with Killian coming at him, it's a wide open layup so once again he did his job by drawing another defender, leading to the ally which as I said, I don't think anyone on our roster can make that pass better than Killian.

This was great action that put Killian in position to take advantage of his strength...we never saw Hayes in the horns action again for the rest of the game, so I disagree that Chicago adjusted. It's clear that Hayes isn't a great shooter yet but teams are still guarding him...the ideal that we're playing 4 on 5 really isn't true at all and this play shows that.


Yea the YouTuber forgot to mention the other option. Make Killian beat you. He didn't score a point all night. Let Killian come into the lane and shoot his fadeaway layup, fake the help with Vucecic but stay on Beef Stew and watch it clank off the rim.


lol I can agree with that...if I'm an opposing coach, I'm daring Killian to become a scorer but Chicago absolutely didn't play him that way yesterday. But lets stop freaking out like 0-6 is some awful line....it aint the end of the world. Tatum missed like 22 shots yesterday, it happens.

While Killian has his weaknesses, there are strengths and he's showing progression on some of those weaknesses. This roster doesn't do him a ton of favors either, would be much better with better shooters with him and/or a real lob threat. Our bigs aren't athletic and we have one of the worst shooting teams in the league.
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Re: Game 1: Bulls (0-0) @ Pistons (0-0) - Oct. 20 7:00 PM EST 

Post#226 » by mattao313 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:38 am

DTP wrote:
FloridaMan78 wrote:
DTP wrote:
That's a really good video explaining the horns action and I mentioned in my previous post as well. If Chicago switches any of those screens, Killian has done his job because it would've created huge mismatches in our favor. The first screen would've switched Caruso onto Stewart (so Stewart just could walk him down to the paint and easy 2) or Caruso on the Grant, which should ideally work in our favorite. If Vuce doesn't step up with Killian coming at him, it's a wide open layup so once again he did his job by drawing another defender, leading to the ally which as I said, I don't think anyone on our roster can make that pass better than Killian.

This was great action that put Killian in position to take advantage of his strength...we never saw Hayes in the horns action again for the rest of the game, so I disagree that Chicago adjusted. It's clear that Hayes isn't a great shooter yet but teams are still guarding him...the ideal that we're playing 4 on 5 really isn't true at all and this play shows that.


Yea the YouTuber forgot to mention the other option. Make Killian beat you. He didn't score a point all night. Let Killian come into the lane and shoot his fadeaway layup, fake the help with Vucecic but stay on Beef Stew and watch it clank off the rim.


lol I can agree with that...if I'm an opposing coach, I'm daring Killian to become a scorer but Chicago absolutely didn't play him that way yesterday. But lets stop freaking out like 0-6 is some awful line....it aint the end of the world. Tatum missed like 22 shots yesterday, it happens.

While Killian has his weaknesses, there are strengths and he's showing progression on some of those weaknesses. This roster doesn't do him a ton of favors either, would be much better with better shooters with him and/or a real lob threat. Our bigs aren't athletic and we have one of the worst shooting teams in the league.
He just isn't agressive at all and has a weak handle that's important things you need to be a NBA pg. At least look for his shot more i remember peeps hated KCP shooting to much but I wish he'd be like that. Id rather him go 5/15 than 0/6 at least he's being agressive and not just a warm body out there.

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Re: Game 1: Bulls (0-0) @ Pistons (0-0) - Oct. 20 7:00 PM EST 

Post#227 » by FloridaMan78 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:45 am

DTP wrote:
FloridaMan78 wrote:
DTP wrote:
That's a really good video explaining the horns action and I mentioned in my previous post as well. If Chicago switches any of those screens, Killian has done his job because it would've created huge mismatches in our favor. The first screen would've switched Caruso onto Stewart (so Stewart just could walk him down to the paint and easy 2) or Caruso on the Grant, which should ideally work in our favorite. If Vuce doesn't step up with Killian coming at him, it's a wide open layup so once again he did his job by drawing another defender, leading to the ally which as I said, I don't think anyone on our roster can make that pass better than Killian.

This was great action that put Killian in position to take advantage of his strength...we never saw Hayes in the horns action again for the rest of the game, so I disagree that Chicago adjusted. It's clear that Hayes isn't a great shooter yet but teams are still guarding him...the ideal that we're playing 4 on 5 really isn't true at all and this play shows that.


Yea the YouTuber forgot to mention the other option. Make Killian beat you. He didn't score a point all night. Let Killian come into the lane and shoot his fadeaway layup, fake the help with Vucecic but stay on Beef Stew and watch it clank off the rim.


lol I can agree with that...if I'm an opposing coach, I'm daring Killian to become a scorer but Chicago absolutely didn't play him that way yesterday. But lets stop freaking out like 0-6 is some awful line....it aint the end of the world. Tatum missed like 22 shots yesterday, it happens.

While Killian has his weaknesses, there are strengths and he's showing progression on some of those weaknesses. This roster doesn't do him a ton of favors either, would be much better with better shooters with him and/or a real lob threat. Our bigs aren't athletic and we have one of the worst shooting teams in the league.


Yea Tatum didn't shoot 35%fg last year, 28%fg in preseason, 32%fg in summer league. Killian also said he focused on defensive improvements over the offseason not his offensive game, so I really don't see why we'd expect him to be any better scoring the ball this year. They need to move on from him if he can't score above 35% this year. Or at least transition him to a bench role.
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Re: Game 1: Bulls (0-0) @ Pistons (0-0) - Oct. 20 7:00 PM EST 

Post#228 » by thesack12 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:59 pm

FloridaMan78 wrote:
DTP wrote:
FloridaMan78 wrote:
Yea the YouTuber forgot to mention the other option. Make Killian beat you. He didn't score a point all night. Let Killian come into the lane and shoot his fadeaway layup, fake the help with Vucecic but stay on Beef Stew and watch it clank off the rim.


lol I can agree with that...if I'm an opposing coach, I'm daring Killian to become a scorer but Chicago absolutely didn't play him that way yesterday. But lets stop freaking out like 0-6 is some awful line....it aint the end of the world. Tatum missed like 22 shots yesterday, it happens.

While Killian has his weaknesses, there are strengths and he's showing progression on some of those weaknesses. This roster doesn't do him a ton of favors either, would be much better with better shooters with him and/or a real lob threat. Our bigs aren't athletic and we have one of the worst shooting teams in the league.


Yea Tatum didn't shoot 35%fg last year, 28%fg in preseason, 32%fg in summer league. Killian also said he focused on defensive improvements over the offseason not his offensive game, so I really don't see why we'd expect him to be any better scoring the ball this year. They need to move on from him if he can't score above 35% this year. Or at least transition him to a bench role.


I get that people are trying to find positives about Killian Hayes, but man trying to defend a 0-6, 0 point statline like it isn't awful while also trying to compare it to an off night shooting from career 20 PPG Jayson Tatum, is a reach to say the least.
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Re: Game 1: Bulls (0-0) @ Pistons (0-0) - Oct. 20 7:00 PM EST 

Post#229 » by DTP » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:05 pm

thesack12 wrote:
FloridaMan78 wrote:
DTP wrote:
lol I can agree with that...if I'm an opposing coach, I'm daring Killian to become a scorer but Chicago absolutely didn't play him that way yesterday. But lets stop freaking out like 0-6 is some awful line....it aint the end of the world. Tatum missed like 22 shots yesterday, it happens.

While Killian has his weaknesses, there are strengths and he's showing progression on some of those weaknesses. This roster doesn't do him a ton of favors either, would be much better with better shooters with him and/or a real lob threat. Our bigs aren't athletic and we have one of the worst shooting teams in the league.


Yea Tatum didn't shoot 35%fg last year, 28%fg in preseason, 32%fg in summer league. Killian also said he focused on defensive improvements over the offseason not his offensive game, so I really don't see why we'd expect him to be any better scoring the ball this year. They need to move on from him if he can't score above 35% this year. Or at least transition him to a bench role.


I get that people are trying to find positives about Killian Hayes, but man trying to defend a 0-6, 0 point statline like it isn't awful while also trying to compare it to an off night shooting from career 20 PPG Jayson Tatum, is a reach to say the least.


lol fair
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Re: Game 1: Bulls (0-0) @ Pistons (0-0) - Oct. 20 7:00 PM EST 

Post#230 » by DBC10 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:09 pm

DTP wrote:
thesack12 wrote:
FloridaMan78 wrote:
Yea Tatum didn't shoot 35%fg last year, 28%fg in preseason, 32%fg in summer league. Killian also said he focused on defensive improvements over the offseason not his offensive game, so I really don't see why we'd expect him to be any better scoring the ball this year. They need to move on from him if he can't score above 35% this year. Or at least transition him to a bench role.


I get that people are trying to find positives about Killian Hayes, but man trying to defend a 0-6, 0 point statline like it isn't awful while also trying to compare it to an off night shooting from career 20 PPG Jayson Tatum, is a reach to say the least.


lol fair


Lol I got your point though. It's not a complete disaster for going 0 points considering the other positives. Really the burden is on Casey to put Hayes in more situations to get the needed reps but also on Hayes too, to get to producing. Otherwise he'll become highly replaceable by his junior year
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Re: Game 1: Bulls (0-0) @ Pistons (0-0) - Oct. 20 7:00 PM EST 

Post#231 » by whitehops » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:50 pm

DTP wrote:I just went back and rewatched the game and tracked every possession Killian was put in PnR. First, I'll say Casey did actually put him in more than what I originally thought and he was decently efficient in it, we got good looks for the most part.


thorough post, love it! used to the same myself when i had league pass.

by my count those ten possessions yielded 4 points which is... not great. i know it's a small sample size, guys miss shots, etc. but still i think it's hard to argue that they were high quality possessions.

my suggestion when you go back and watch games is to not only watch for what killian does but also what he doesn't do. nobody on our team is great at running the pick and roll but you can watch some other guys (opponents too) to see the things they do in those situations and compare it to what killian does.

a big issue with killian in the pick and roll is that he doesn't put pressure on the rim. the reason that's so important is because it forces the big to drop closer to the basket, which in turn forces all of the wing defenders to sink in. that creates space for the perimeter guys for kickouts, it opens cutting lanes because the defense is preoccupied, etc. when hayes doesn't put pressure on the rim then the defense can stay pretty much set and hayes has to move the ball because nobody got freed up. pick and rolls are supposed to create OPEN players or at least get a player with enough space so they can make a play. but a lot of times when hayes runs pick and roll it ends up with the play being re-set and then another player has to make a play.

it's a problem with him overall, as he doesn't attack closeouts or even look to take his man off the dribble when he has the ball. casey said after the bulls game that they're working with him handling physicality on offense, i really hope that helps him at least get to the point where attacking the rim is an option and not a last resort. teams respecting him as a scorer will open up his game.
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Re: Game 1: Bulls (0-0) @ Pistons (0-0) - Oct. 20 7:00 PM EST 

Post#232 » by DTP » Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:21 pm

whitehops wrote:
DTP wrote:I just went back and rewatched the game and tracked every possession Killian was put in PnR. First, I'll say Casey did actually put him in more than what I originally thought and he was decently efficient in it, we got good looks for the most part.


thorough post, love it! used to the same myself when i had league pass.

by my count those ten possessions yielded 4 points which is... not great. i know it's a small sample size, guys miss shots, etc. but still i think it's hard to argue that they were high quality possessions.

my suggestion when you go back and watch games is to not only watch for what killian does but also what he doesn't do. nobody on our team is great at running the pick and roll but you can watch some other guys (opponents too) to see the things they do in those situations and compare it to what killian does.

a big issue with killian in the pick and roll is that he doesn't put pressure on the rim. the reason that's so important is because it forces the big to drop closer to the basket, which in turn forces all of the wing defenders to sink in. that creates space for the perimeter guys for kickouts, it opens cutting lanes because the defense is preoccupied, etc. when hayes doesn't put pressure on the rim then the defense can stay pretty much set and hayes has to move the ball because nobody got freed up. pick and rolls are supposed to create OPEN players or at least get a player with enough space so they can make a play. but a lot of times when hayes runs pick and roll it ends up with the play being re-set and then another player has to make a play.

it's a problem with him overall, as he doesn't attack closeouts or even look to take his man off the dribble when he has the ball. casey said after the bulls game that they're working with him handling physicality on offense, i really hope that helps him at least get to the point where attacking the rim is an option and not a last resort. teams respecting him as a scorer will open up his game.



You are not wrong in saying that Killian needs to put more pressure on the rim....absolutely, and I hope as he continues to grow confidence and figure out this NBA pace, he'll develop into that. I don't think he had a great game....that's not my point. My point is, his game wasn't as bad as the 0pts 0-6 stat line shows because he was still able to make a positive impact in the possessions he was involved in.

Teams run PnR for multiple reasons and ours right now looks to be to create and hunt mismatches. Forcing Chicago to switch in those PnR did create those mismatches, so Killian did his job. Grant is 6'9 "first option" and the action led us to Grant posting Ball up 1v1. It's not Killian's fault if Grant can't take advantage of that matchup....if Grant is the first option Casey believes he can be, then Grant has to score there. It's on Grant to be so good in those positions that it creates double teams and gets other guys looks.....this is what you need from your first option. If Grant makes the basket, that's an assist for Killian and we're all happy but because Grant didn't make it, Killian is ineffective! Same on Stewart rolling to the basket in the 1st- if Stewart makes the first attempt, that's another assist but because he blew the layup and didn't get the assist- Killian sucks!

Secondly, I put the blame on Stewart a lot because it's clear as day, the man wasn't setting good picks....the pick is a very, very important role in the "Pick & Roll". We got the same type of "reset" results when Stewart set picks for Bey, Grant, and Joseph and both Bey & Grant do have the ability to put pressure on the rim, as well as hit jump shots. Stewart has to improve there!

I'll be very curious to see if Cade has the same problems when he gets back. I think one of the biggest flaws on this lineup is there's not a true vertical spacer on the floor, which would be so huge for Cade & Killian at this point. Yeah, Killian would still have to improve on finishing and shooting we all know this but Killian at least will need a better pairing than Stewart to really help him. I'd love to see even Killian and Grant in more of the actions but wtf are you going to do with Stewart if he's on the floor?

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