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Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST

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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#121 » by GreekAlex » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:30 am

bstein14 wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:Everyone still hate Hayes?

Just wondering

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I think almost everyone is fine with him playing 24 MPG this season as we continue to try and develop him. He still is the least efficient scorer in the league among regular 18+ MPG rotation players.... but overall today I think its much more likely he is still in the NBA in 3 years than a few months ago towards the beginning of the season when he was really struggling. I can see a path forward for him with our team where he's our backup PG moving forward after this season.

I think just about everyone at this point would hope we upgrade Stewart and Hayes in the starting lineup during the offseason with our cap space and our 2022 draft pick.... I think pretty much almost everyone here wants to compete for the playoffs next season I'm not sure anyone is down for another year of being a bottom 5 team. Eventually you've got to turn the corner.


I totally agree about upgrading the starting lineup (Hayes & Stewart).

Stewart has been the biggest disappointment of the season for me thus far in relation to my expectations for him. He definitely seems to have stayed at the same level as last year or even regressed and he’s not hitting the outside shot as well as he was his rookie season. I expected a steady upward trajectory rather than a sophomore slump.

As far as Hayes goes, if he doesn’t show some signs of improvement, it will be hard to pick up the 4th year option at over $7M.


I see Cade and Bey in the starting lineup next year with 3 new teammates. They would be joined with:

1. High draft pick (Jaden Ivey?)
2. Pricy free agent
3. J. Grant’s trade package results (P-Will?)
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#122 » by mattao313 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:33 am

Pharaoh wrote:Everyone still hate Hayes?

Just wondering

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I still feel the same about him, if he can't show a big jump next season I don't think he deserves big minutes. Let's be real a 'good' game for him is most likely still a terrible game for an average player. A 5pt 5ast game is a good night for him lol

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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#123 » by Laimbeer » Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:52 pm

Pharaoh wrote:Everyone still hate Hayes?

Just wondering

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I still think it was a mistake to draft him there, and any fan of the other 29 teams would agree.
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#124 » by Laimbeer » Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:55 pm

Olynyk back will be a good thing. He doesn't gum up the offense like Stewart and isn't a ball stopper like Grant. I had dreaded how bad we would be without Grant and the impact on young players, but now I welcome going ahead without him.
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#125 » by Moses ShamMoses » Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:58 pm

Killian sort of reminds me of Spencer Dinwiddie when he was with the Pistons. You could see the raw talent but he wasn't putting the pieces together yet. It lead to a lot of uncomfortable looking shots and drives to the basket. I'm not sold on Killian actually developing like Spencer did, but unless a better option turns up (Ivey? A. Simons?), I think we keep trying to develop him and hope he gets better.
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#126 » by DetroitSho » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:09 pm

Kalamazoo317 wrote:Observations:
1. We own Toronto and I think it's hilarious. It's the Coach Casey Curse.
2. I'm ready for Saben Lee to go back to the G-League. I think unless he can develop a much better shot he doesn't have the right game at his size to be viable at this level. I feel like we survive minutes with him at best and that he's a big liability for us. To his credit, he did have a few nice dishes this game, but I don't feel like you can rely on him for a bucket at all and he doesn't scare anyone defensively.
3. They've all gotten their fair share of crap this season, so credit where credit's due: Lyles, Cojo, and Josh Jackson are all balling right now. Lyles in particular has just changed the complexion of some games, but Cojo has made some clutch plays to help us secure wins, and Josh has really looked good at times.
4. Kelly O and Jerami coming back will be huge chemistry experiments. If we don't trade either of them, it'll be really interesting to see if we can reintegrate them in a good way with the rest of our players. Right now we're moving the ball well and Cade and Hayes are mostly making good decisions. If they're willing to work together the right way and not just be iso players, Jerami and Kelly O are two really valuable additions to that. They both can play inside and outside and both can contribute defensively.
5. The biggest thing I don't want to see when Jerami returns (if he isn't traded) is Haimi or Josh getting buried. They've both earned regular minutes at this point. The one plus side of not getting Bol (which is still a bit of a bummer) is it doesn't bury anyone in the front court.
6. I'm eager for Frank to get back and take all of Saben's minutes. Frank is at least scrappy on defense and gets a steal or two, then on offense he's a streaky but competent floor spacer. Cade, Frank, Bey, Grant, Kelly O should be a fun five out lineup that I can't wait to see (if Grant doesn't get traded).
7. Cade is better than Scottie Barnes and I'm ready for that to be the national conversation as well. Barnes is a great piece to have on a team. Cade is a cornerstone. I'm really impressed at how he's developed his NBA-level offense from just being an all or nothing 3-point gunner in his early games to someone who knows when his outside shot isn't really falling and finds ways to get going to the hoop and in the mid-range fairly consistently. Awesome game by him today offensively, getting his teammates involved, and then guarding everyone from Van Fleet to Pascal to Barnes. I really think he's going to be special.
Heckuva good post. I can't argue with anything.

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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#127 » by bstein14 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:16 pm

Three biggest things for Hayes this offseason.

#1. Continue to work on that corner 3 point shot. If we're running a bunch of plays with Cade out top you've got to be able to knock down at least 35% from that corner.

#2. Develop some type of decent move going to the basket. Most likely a floater or something he can hit at 50% going to the rim.

#3. He needs to get good at coming off a pick and knocking down an open 15-18 foot jumper at the FT line. Right now opposing guards are just cutting under the screen. Good, confidant guards punish the defender for taking the easy way out going under the screen. Once the defender has to respect that pull up off jumper it's going to open up a whole new world for what we can do with Killian in the pick and roll.

He's been solid defensively, he's gotten much better at taking care of the ball this season, and even though he has been inefficient he hasn't forced too many shots so all of that shows promise.

Similar thing for Stewart. He plays hard, he plays decent defense, he fights for rebounds, he is getting better at setting screens.... his jumpshot hasn't worked this year but he doesn't take many. Both those guys could end up being solid bench role players for us next year but neither I really feel good about starting if we're trying to win games.
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#128 » by Manocad » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:17 pm

Pharaoh wrote:Everyone still hate Hayes?

Just wondering

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Obviously since he's not putting up "starting PG" numbers after 57 games people will continue to whine about him per usual. He never should have been drafted at 7, Halliburton was the better draft pick, Saben Lee has better PER stats, etc. None of those however are good reasons to not keep developing Hayes being that he was obviously drafted to be the PG of the future and there's no one on the depth chart behind him burning it up. And it only takes two eyes and half a brain to see that the offense works with best with Hayes at PG, and neither Lee nor Frank can match his defense or rebounding. Even if the timeline of his development doesn't suit some people, the potential is there IMO. And apparently in the opinion of the team.
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#129 » by Manocad » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:35 pm

mattao313 wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:Everyone still hate Hayes?

Just wondering

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I still feel the same about him, if he can't show a big jump next season I don't think he deserves big minutes. Let's be real a 'good' game for him is most likely still a terrible game for an average player. A 5pt 5ast game is a good night for him lol

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The averages of the top 32 PG's in the NBA are 14.3 PPG, 4.3 RPG, 5.9 APG, 1.1 steals, 0.4 blocks, and 2.4 TO's. Hayes averages 6.3 PPG so scoring 5 doesn't qualify as a good game, even for him. Now, since he averages 3.1 boards, 3.7 assists, 1.3 steals, 0.4 blocks and 1.6 TO's he had a good game in that regard with 6 boards, 5 assists, 2 steals, 1 block and 1 TO.

So yeah, let's be real since you clearly didn't want to actually look up any stats before making your assertion--Hayes' stat line last night wouldn't represent a "terrible" game for the average PG, especially given that he only took 5 shots because he didn't need to take more than that, he put up most of his stats in the first half, and his team won the game. Sure, he fell well below the average PG's PPG but exceeded almost every other stat.

And the caveat I'll of course throw out there as I usually do...I don't have any more love for Killian than I do for anyone on the team; I didn't even know who he was when he was drafted. But until the team reaches a point where more is needed out of the PG position--not wanted by fans on the internet, but NEEDED--and there's no better option available, begrudging the minutes he gets because he doesn't "deserve" them overlooks the fact that given what we've seen so far this season no other PG on the team does either.
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#130 » by MotownMadness » Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:33 pm

Once Manocad gets on something he won't stop in every thread for years lol
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#131 » by Manocad » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:00 pm

MotownMadness wrote:Once Manocad gets on something he won't stop in every thread for years lol

Entertainment value, man. I get people being emotional and impatient about sports and I'm fine with that. Just be honest about it. Like I keep saying, if you want Hayes gone just because you want a better player in his spot so the team can win more games now because you find that more entertaining, just say it. But being that this is a forum where we bounce ideas, thoughts, and criticisms off each other, if you throw out an argument that Hayes shouldn't get the minutes he gets at PG because he hasn't "earned" them, never should have been drafted at 7, will absolutely be a bust after 57 games, that Saben Lee has better PER stats, or that Hayes playing is ruining the team's development trajectory thus a change needs to made now or something like that, certainly you have to expect that I'm going to call it out if it doesn't make sense.

And of course, I'll always poke at people who assert their opinions as irrefutable facts, especially relative to future outcomes.
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#132 » by Sort » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:16 pm

Hayes is ironic: he's by far the least interesting Piston to watch on the court and subsequently leads to the most interesting debates on here. I mean, people are talking about last night being a developmental game, a milestone or something. That tells you all anyone outside of Detroit needs to know about Killian Hayes.

Killian does play a lot of off-ball out there - and he's easily a league-worst shooting guard. Put the ball in Cade's hands and if you can't surround him with players yet that compliment his style, at least put some competitive ballers out there. Josh Jackson's mistakes can be downright painful this season, but truth is, I'd much rather see that in the starting lineup than Hayes.

Killian should be developing his ability to impact the game off the bench against bench players. That's where he's at developmentally. I just see no benefit to this painful experiment continuing.
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#133 » by mattao313 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:25 pm

Manocad wrote:
mattao313 wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:Everyone still hate Hayes?

Just wondering

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I still feel the same about him, if he can't show a big jump next season I don't think he deserves big minutes. Let's be real a 'good' game for him is most likely still a terrible game for an average player. A 5pt 5ast game is a good night for him lol

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The averages of the top 32 PG's in the NBA are 14.3 PPG, 4.3 RPG, 5.9 APG, 1.1 steals, 0.4 blocks, and 2.4 TO's. Hayes averages 6.3 PPG so scoring 5 doesn't qualify as a good game, even for him. Now, since he averages 3.1 boards, 3.7 assists, 1.3 steals, 0.4 blocks and 1.6 TO's he had a good game in that regard with 6 boards, 5 assists, 2 steals, 1 block and 1 TO.

So yeah, let's be real since you clearly didn't want to actually look up any stats before making your assertion--Hayes' stat line last night wouldn't represent a "terrible" game for the average PG, especially given that he only took 5 shots because he didn't need to take more than that, he put up most of his stats in the first half, and his team won the game. Sure, he fell well below the average PG's PPG but exceeded almost every other stat.

And the caveat I'll of course throw out there as I usually do...I don't have any more love for Killian than I do for anyone on the team; I didn't even know who he was when he was drafted. But until the team reaches a point where more is needed out of the PG position--not wanted by fans on the internet, but NEEDED--and there's no better option available, begrudging the minutes he gets because he doesn't "deserve" them overlooks the fact that given what we've seen so far this season no other PG on the team does either.
LoL if Corey Joseph, Cade Cunningham, even Lee had the same game no one would bat and eye. And I said good game most average guards to below average can have a game like this while putting up 20+ points on good efficiency. Like I said the expectations for Killian is way lower around here because he's been consistently terrible so a 5pt 5ast game is considered good for him. I don't hate the guy I'm being real about it.



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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#134 » by Snakebites » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:40 pm

Any time table in Kelly coming back?

I do want us to trade Grant, but would actually prefer we kept him. Our center situation is very different from our forward situation. Bey and Diallo are putting it together(at least offensively) but Stewart in the starting lineup is really hurting us. Kelly spacing things out would probably help the development of our 1-4 young guys.
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#135 » by 440BB » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:46 pm

Snakebites wrote:Any time table in Kelly coming back?

I do want us to trade Grant, but would actually prefer we kept him. Our center situation is very different from our forward situation. Bey and Diallo are putting it together(at least offensively) but Stewart in the starting lineup is really hurting us. Kelly spacing things out would probably help the development of our 1-4 young guys.


That's what I'm waiting to see. Except for about three games early on, Cunningham and Olynyk haven't been on the court together, not even in training camp. As tough as this season has been, we haven't yet seen the group they intended to put on the floor.
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#136 » by whitehops » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:59 pm

Snakebites wrote:Any time table in Kelly coming back?

I do want us to trade Grant, but would actually prefer we kept him. Our center situation is very different from our forward situation. Bey and Diallo are putting it together(at least offensively) but Stewart in the starting lineup is really hurting us. Kelly spacing things out would probably help the development of our 1-4 young guys.

last i read was that kelly was ramping up, but i don't think there's a specific timetable yet. just by what he's reportedly doing i'd guess late january/early february?

and i think i'm more excited for kelly to come back than grant. stewart is really good defensively but he is definitely killing the offense. he's not a roll threat, can't spread the floor, can't create at all for himself or others and needs to be set up with space near the basket to finish.

kelly isn't much of a roll threat but he can at least catch the ball near the nail and be a threat to score himself or hit the open guy, and he can spread the floor. the offense recently looks so much better with lyles on the floor than stewart, and getting olynyk back will give us the chance to have some spacing and some creating at center all game.
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#137 » by bstein14 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:10 pm

Kelly's latest injury status update had him out for our next home game against the Suns tommorrow but it sounds like he could travel with us on our upcoming 4 game road trip and might be back for the last two games of that trip.

Kelly Listed as possible to come back Jan 21st versus Utah.


Frank Jackson was updated today to a game time decision for tomorrow's early game against Phoenix.
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#138 » by MotownMadness » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:22 pm

Manocad wrote:
MotownMadness wrote:Once Manocad gets on something he won't stop in every thread for years lol

Entertainment value, man. I get people being emotional and impatient about sports and I'm fine with that. Just be honest about it. Like I keep saying, if you want Hayes gone just because you want a better player in his spot so the team can win more games now because you find that more entertaining, just say it. But being that this is a forum where we bounce ideas, thoughts, and criticisms off each other, if you throw out an argument that Hayes shouldn't get the minutes he gets at PG because he hasn't "earned" them, never should have been drafted at 7, will absolutely be a bust after 57 games, that Saben Lee has better PER stats, or that Hayes playing is ruining the team's development trajectory thus a change needs to made now or something like that, certainly you have to expect that I'm going to call it out if it doesn't make sense.

And of course, I'll always poke at people who assert their opinions as irrefutable facts, especially relative to future outcomes.

All I ever said is he needed to start showing more offensively. Then you've brought him up every chance possible since with all the other the other stuff.
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#139 » by DBC10 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:11 pm

bstein14 wrote:
whitehops wrote:
bstein14 wrote:I think almost everyone is fine with him playing 24 MPG this season as we continue to try and develop him. He still is the least efficient scorer in the league among regular 18+ MPG rotation players.... but overall today I think its much more likely he is still in the NBA in 3 years than a few months ago towards the beginning of the season when he was really struggling. I can see a path forward for him with our team where he's our backup PG moving forward after this season.

yeah hayes is much more palatable when he's in an off-ball role. when he has the ball (facing any kind of defensive attention) he is horrible. what he is good at is moving the ball, which helps keep the starting offense flowing. he's also not great defensively but he has good size and definitely puts in effort.

considering there isn't a better option for the starting lineup this season i can definitely handle that over cojo starting, lee starting, or hayes starting in the lead guard role that he had early in the season.



I've seen enough of Cade's increased ball handling to prefer a Cade - Diallo - Bey - Grant - Stewart starting lineup once Grant comes back. I really think Diallo has greatly outplayed Hayes and it will be a shame if we put Diallo back to the bench. If we're insistent on starting Hayes I'd still rather see a Hayes - Cade - Diallo - Bey - Grant starting lineup than moving Diallo back to the bench. He's really started to develop chemistry with Cade and Bey.


Hayes has his share of problems which anyone can clearly see but at least for yesterday, we need more out of Stewart too. It was telling seeing him not play crunchtime minutes and whenever he does play, he just feels less impactful and at times invisible when out there. We can play Hayes but playing Hayes and Stew both seems like less than ideal
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Re: Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST 

Post#140 » by MotownMadness » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:19 pm

I do agree though that Hayes needs to go to the bench if they end up playing Grant again. Diallo has just been playing to well since starting.

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