No Cade, no one cares apparently. Wolves/Pistons 3:30

[Moses ShamMoses]

Props to Killian tonight. He was sharp and aggressive. More please...

[GBanga3]

I only caught the the 4th, but the Killain I saw tonight is a player I can get around.

[Southern Piston]

I’m rooting for Hayes and always have. I was starting to give up on him before we moved him to the bench. Tonight was best I’ve ever seen him on the offensive end, let’s hopes he’s turned a corner. He looked like the player we were hoping for in the second half.

[Manocad]

I only caught the the 4th, but the Killain I saw tonight is a player I can get around.

Apparently this game doesn't matter because of past games not like this one, and one game doesn't count as showing signs of improvement.

Which of course doesn't make sense. It's like if your boss says "Your performance has been lacking. You need to show improvement this week or you're fired," you bust ass, knock it out of the park, and at the end of the week your boss says, "You're fired. One week of improvement doesn't count as improvement because of all the other weeks you've worked that weren't like this one."

Killian hasn't played with the fire and aggressiveness he showed this game so I don't see why that's not an impetus to think "Alright, let's see if he can keep this going" rather than "Nope, even though we haven't seen this before he's still straight trash." Not to mention that it completely overlooks that he's going to keep playing anyway; there's no "straight trash" button that someone can push that throws Hayes into a fire pit. Look at it from the opposite perspective--let's say one game Bey went full iso/back to the basket, shot 2-12 with getting stripped/blocked a couple/few times without ever taking an outside shot. Would you think that he's suddenly going to do that all the time based on his previous games? Of course not. But would it make you think "What the hell is he doing? Better have a talk with him and find out what's going on"? Probably. It doesn't necessarily mean anything concrete long term, but it still means SOMETHING, i.e. you sure as hell wouldn't just blow it off.

[GBanga3]

Well since didn't touch on anything else in my post other than assists, lets keep talking about assists.

With Grant Pistons average 21.5 APG, without Grant Pistons average 23.5 APG.

There sure is a very clear widespread pattern developing when the Pistons have Grant and when they don't have Grant.

I understand your argument and those are valid points to bring up. I am sure there are plenty of other positive advanced stats for Grant too but these things are also way more complicated too. Our team is super young and all over the place and some of our best players like Cade and Bey are sub 40% shooters. I don't see Grant as a 1st option. I see him as a 3rd option. I think when he is in that role as an 18ppg scorer or so with an actual winning team that has more experience around him then he will be more productive. Again, you can disagree. That is fine. I just think most pistons fans are being really unfair towards him and just over the top. You would think he is absolute trash from reading this board.

Damn, they gonna think you’re my burner if you keep talking like that haha.

Whilst i can’t get around everything you’ve preached in here tonight- (I’ll let the others continue to sort you out there), I’m with you on the hate coming JG’s way.

Don’t understand how he went from a favourite to the whipping boy.

And all this talk that JG has this need or desire to be the man or the number 1 option. How does anyone actually know that? Has he openly expressed this?
Yeah he came to Detroit to be in a better position, where he had more opportunities and the dude balled out last season.
He was our number 1 option because we stunk! But that’s 1 year out of 9 that he’s actually been in that position.

I don’t see why he can’t go back to be being 2nd, 3rd or 4th option.

Also if the general consensus is we haven’t seen Killian play enough games in order to determine if he’s a bust or not (and I agree he needs to be given more time for sure), but with that being the case how can anyone say we have enough evidence to support the argument that Cade and Jerami can’t co-exist?

[Manocad]

Well since didn't touch on anything else in my post other than assists, lets keep talking about assists.

With Grant Pistons average 21.5 APG, without Grant Pistons average 23.5 APG.

There sure is a very clear widespread pattern developing when the Pistons have Grant and when they don't have Grant.

I understand your argument and those are valid points to bring up. I am sure there are plenty of other positive advanced stats for Grant too but these things are also way more complicated too. Our team is super young and all over the place and some of our best players like Cade and Bey are sub 40% shooters. I don't see Grant as a 1st option. I see him as a 3rd option. I think when he is in that role as an 18ppg scorer or so with an actual winning team that has more experience around him then he will be more productive. Again, you can disagree. That is fine. I just think most pistons fans are being really unfair towards him and just over the top. You would think he is absolute trash from reading this board.

Damn, they gonna think you’re my burner if you keep talking like that haha.

Whilst i can’t get around everything you’ve preached in here tonight- (I’ll let the others continue to sort you out there), I’m with you on the hate coming JG’s way.

Don’t understand how he went from a favourite to the whipping boy.

And all this talk that JG has this need or desire to be the man or the number 1 option. How does anyone actually know that? Has he openly expressed this?
Yeah he came to Detroit to be in a better position, where he had more opportunities and the dude balled out last season.
He was our number 1 option because we stunk! But that’s 1 year out of 9 that he’s actually been in that position.

I don’t see why he can’t go back to be being 2nd, 3rd or 4th option.

Also if the general consensus is we haven’t seen Killian play enough games in order to determine if he’s a bust or not (and I agree he needs to be given more time for sure), but with that being the case how can anyone say we have enough evidence to support the argument that Cade and Jerami can’t co-exist?

Just addressing the bold.

I don't recall a consensus here that Grant was the favorite player, ever. While he has been praised VERY often for having really good games, he has also been criticized from Day 1 for often being an offense stopper, and looooong before Cade came along. The difference is that no one ever called Grant a bad player, only that he didn't represent the best fit amongst a team of young guys also needing a requisite amount of touches to develop, especially after Cade came along. Grant continues to draw criticism because he's still doing the things that people feel aren't a good fit for this team. Hayes on the other gets disregarded even he does something different because "hasn't done it enough for long enough." Now, certainly Grant should be given more time and he's going to get it anyway unless he gets traded tomorrow.

In simpler terms, certainly you can say "Big deal, one game/a few games/can't expect it to continue given his past" with Killian. But that's not the same with Grant; the difference is he's doing the same things he did for many games prior that drew criticism so it IS logical to think "probably going to continue given his past."

[Southern Piston]

I agree with you but we need better rebounding, and the draft is full of power forwards, Bey is a good 3

[Manocad]

I agree with you but we need better rebounding, and the draft is full of power forwards, Bey is a good 3

Bey represents a bit of a Catch-22 for me in that I think he's better playing the 3 but defending 4's.

[breezypeezy]

I will join chorus on saying Killian is looking so much better coming off the bench.
I'm surprised KO has been such a dud since his return.
Still not really sure it's been demonstrated how well Grant and Cade could coexist, we just haven't had any decent sample size have we?

[Manocad]

I will join chorus on saying Killian is looking so much better coming off the bench.
I'm surprised KO has been such a dud since his return.
Still not really sure it's been demonstrated how well Grant and Cade could coexist, we just haven't had any decent sample size have we?

Given what Hayes has done off the bench--which if someone thinks he should be relegated to the bench anyway given his history--what's the problem? We're sitting here after watching him have a damn solid game as a bench PG and arguing against him being "straight trash"? Like WTF we doin' over here? If Killian could put up something like this game most games, wouldn't you cement him as your bench PG?

KO has been pretty awful in his return outside of the first 7-8 minutes of his first game back. Out of game shape still maybe?

And obviously we're going to get a bigger sample size of Grant and Cade regardless of how any of us feel about it. And while I'm personally not optimistic I certainly hope there's a fit there because there is still a possibility that Grant is with this team through next season.

[Kalamazoo317]

Loved the efficiency and confidence in Hayes tonight. He looked more crisp all around.

Liked the aggressiveness of Haimi again, though Beverly caught him with some crafty vet stuff.

Seems like this is a match up Beefstew likes. He seems to rebound well against these guys.

Solid but unspectacular game from Bey. Grant was doing a nice job playing within the offense and dishing it around, but it'd be nice to see him step up more as a scorer with Cade out. Doesn't really seem like his three is falling right now.

Kelly O is similar (but worse) in that he seems reluctant to shoot in general right now and when he does it isn't falling. Early in the season he was a bucket off the bench. Not sure what happened to that version of Kelly O. Maybe it's got something to do with that black strip of tape on his arm.

McGruder's hot shooting seems to have cooled. He missed a couple of wide open corner threes that we need him to hit if we're gonna win a game like this.

This kind of felt like one for the tank, though. I felt like we kept the bench in about 2 minutes too long in the fourth if we really wanted this win.

Still, feel the same as I did in the last Minny game: with Cade in the rotation, we win this.

[MotorCade2]

Well since didn't touch on anything else in my post other than assists, lets keep talking about assists.

With Grant Pistons average 21.5 APG, without Grant Pistons average 23.5 APG.

There sure is a very clear widespread pattern developing when the Pistons have Grant and when they don't have Grant.

I understand your argument and those are valid points to bring up. I am sure there are plenty of other positive advanced stats for Grant too but these things are also way more complicated too. Our team is super young and all over the place and some of our best players like Cade and Bey are sub 40% shooters. I don't see Grant as a 1st option. I see him as a 3rd option. I think when he is in that role as an 18ppg scorer or so with an actual winning team that has more experience around him then he will be more productive. Again, you can disagree. That is fine. I just think most pistons fans are being really unfair towards him and just over the top. You would think he is absolute trash from reading this board.

Damn, they gonna think you’re my burner if you keep talking like that haha.

Whilst i can’t get around everything you’ve preached in here tonight- (I’ll let the others continue to sort you out there), I’m with you on the hate coming JG’s way.

Don’t understand how he went from a favourite to the whipping boy.

And all this talk that JG has this need or desire to be the man or the number 1 option. How does anyone actually know that? Has he openly expressed this?
Yeah he came to Detroit to be in a better position, where he had more opportunities and the dude balled out last season.
He was our number 1 option because we stunk! But that’s 1 year out of 9 that he’s actually been in that position.

I don’t see why he can’t go back to be being 2nd, 3rd or 4th option.

Also if the general consensus is we haven’t seen Killian play enough games in order to determine if he’s a bust or not (and I agree he needs to be given more time for sure), but with that being the case how can anyone say we have enough evidence to support the argument that Cade and Jerami can’t co-exist?

I agree. Also, he is playing with a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players. OF COURSE he is going to try and be the guy. When Cade is averaging over 20ppg and we have some other established players THEN we can truly see if Grant is going to just ignore everyone and destroy team chemistry. I highly doubt that. He seems like a model citizen and has already been a productive role player on winning teams like you said.

[BadMofoPimp]

Maybe Hayes wants to get traded to the Wolves or has friends on that team.