Preseason Game 3: Pistons @ Knicks 7:30 PM EST

[FloridaMan78]

Saben had a great game. Pistons toughness showed up. Another game from Saben like that and Casey is gonna have a to make a tough decision.

It feels like anytime Saben gets the bulk of the PG minutes, he plays really well and level-headed. It was the same story last season, when he would randomly erupt for 20 points while getting guys going. He'd be the random bright spot among our woeful PG situation besides Wright

The bad news is, I'm not sure he's really all THAT good to put him as a starter which is weird. He almost doesn't fit as a sixth man either. But that may be our bench unit not knowing how to shoot though and teams extra camping the paint

Last year for sure. Him adding that three pointer is huge though. That fits really well with Cade.

[bstein14]

Saban Lee with 5 assists and 1 TO tonight which is right where you want him to be playing half the game. If he can shoot close to 40% from deep this season he's going to be hard to not put out on the floor. Coach Casey was talking about him working on his game down with the Cruise but if he keeps shooting like he did tonight the A team is going to need him on the court on a nightly basis. He's still just 22 and I kind of always envisioned him working himself into that backup PG spot once CoJo is done, but he might end up earning a rotation spot before CoJo is no longer on the team. Kid plays hard.

[Pistonrings]

:banghead:

Saben had a great game. Pistons toughness showed up. Another game from Saben like that and Casey is gonna have a to make a tough decision.

Saban is streaky and not a good enough asset or defender, he is a bench guy. He's a spark plug who can hopefully come in and shoot well consistently. There's no decision to be made other than how much time he will get compared to CoJo off the bench.

Saben showed in preseason and summer league that he worked on his three point shot. He plays solid defense. To act like Hayes completely out played him is straight up lying or totally blind. Saben may turn out to be a bench player, but based on their play, it’s a lot closer than what you make it out to be.

He's NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the defender or the passer that Hayes is, unreal. Saban Is a bench guy, this is totally obvious. But by all means, let's take this back up on opening night and you can have some fun when the 2nd rounder starts over the 7th overall pick who has much better size, reach, vision, rebounding, defense and passing.

I mean, it's obvious that Weaver and Casey weren't dreaming of Killian and Cade being an awesome defensive backcourt duo when they drafted Cade, they were dreaming of Saban and Cade being the backcourt of the future.

When Casey talked all summer about how he thought Killian and Cade would work well together he really meant to say Saban and Cade. And now clearly that Hayes came back off an injury in his first PREASON game and only scored 6 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds and 2 steals (more points that Jalen Green had the same night in more minutes) this was what Casey and Weaver were hoping for, that they would use that 1 preseason game to bench their no 7 draft pick with good size, good reach, very good passing and very good defense and very good court vision and bring in the 2nd rounder to start with Cade.

Yeah, I am sure you will enjoy opening night.

[Pistonrings]

Saban Lee with 5 assists and 1 TO tonight which is right where you want him to be playing half the game. If he can shoot close to 40% from deep this season he's going to be hard to not put out on the floor. Coach Casey was talking about him working on his game down with the Cruise but if he keeps shooting like he did tonight the A team is going to need him on the court on a nightly basis. He's still just 22 and I kind of always envisioned him working himself into that backup PG spot once CoJo is done, but he might end up earning a rotation spot before CoJo is no longer on the team. Kid plays hard.

I thought we got a steal in the draft with him. Last year his shot was streaky and was off in the first summer league game I think. Then he picked it up great. I don't see them sending him to the G league this year. I guess it's possible if we are in the playoff hunt and Casey wants the vets getting more minutes, but the way injuries are stacking up I just see him staying up and being a part of the rotation.

He lacks in court vision and size isn't much of a passer, but he can add a lot as a spark plug off the bench if the game is at a slower pace and Casey wants a speedster in at pg off the bench instead of the more laid back CoJo. CoJo is a nice game manager off the bench but sometimes you need that guy who will attempt to come in and give a fast spark. Frank Jackson is the same kind of guy, a sparkplug type who can get hot and every team needs guys off the bench who bring that. So I'm thinking Saban will not be going to no G league much.

As I said before, a lot of minutes will be decided ón whether we have a legit shot at the playoffs.

Casey will involve vets early in the year more and see where it goes. If it becomes obvious we won't make it then I believe we will see more minutes for guys like Saban, GARZILLA, and Pickett.

[treefi]

:banghead:
Saban is streaky and not a good enough asset or defender, he is a bench guy. He's a spark plug who can hopefully come in and shoot well consistently. There's no decision to be made other than how much time he will get compared to CoJo off the bench.

Saben showed in preseason and summer league that he worked on his three point shot. He plays solid defense. To act like Hayes completely out played him is straight up lying or totally blind. Saben may turn out to be a bench player, but based on their play, it’s a lot closer than what you make it out to be.

He's NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the defender or the passer that Hayes is, unreal. Saban Is a bench guy, this is totally obvious. But by all means, let's take this back up on opening night and you can have some fun when the 2nd rounder starts over the 7th overall pick who has much better size, reach, vision, rebounding, defense and passing.

I mean, it's obvious that Weaver and Casey weren't dreaming of Killian and Cade being an awesome defensive backcourt duo when they drafted Cade, they were dreaming of Saban and Cade being the backcourt of the future.

When Casey talked all summer about how he thought Killian and Cade would work well together he really meant to say Saban and Cade. And now clearly that Hayes came back off an injury in his first PREASON game and only scored 6 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds and 2 steals (more points that Jalen Green had the same night in more minutes) this was what Casey and Weaver were hoping for, that they would use that 1 preseason game to bench their no 7 draft pick with good size, good reach, very good passing and very good defense and very good court vision and bring in the 2nd rounder to start with Cade.

Yeah, I am sure you will enjoy opening night.

Everyone knows Saben outplayed Killian last year.

[bstein14]

:banghead:
Saban is streaky and not a good enough asset or defender, he is a bench guy. He's a spark plug who can hopefully come in and shoot well consistently. There's no decision to be made other than how much time he will get compared to CoJo off the bench.

Saben showed in preseason and summer league that he worked on his three point shot. He plays solid defense. To act like Hayes completely out played him is straight up lying or totally blind. Saben may turn out to be a bench player, but based on their play, it’s a lot closer than what you make it out to be.

He's NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the defender or the passer that Hayes is, unreal. Saban Is a bench guy, this is totally obvious. But by all means, let's take this back up on opening night and you can have some fun when the 2nd rounder starts over the 7th overall pick who has much better size, reach, vision, rebounding, defense and passing.

I mean, it's obvious that Weaver and Casey weren't dreaming of Killian and Cade being an awesome defensive backcourt duo when they drafted Cade, they were dreaming of Saban and Cade being the backcourt of the future.

When Casey talked all summer about how he thought Killian and Cade would work well together he really meant to say Saban and Cade. And now clearly that Hayes came back off an injury in his first PREASON game and only scored 6 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds and 2 steals (more points that Jalen Green had the same night in more minutes) this was what Casey and Weaver were hoping for, that they would use that 1 preseason game to bench their no 7 draft pick with good size, good reach, very good passing and very good defense and very good court vision and bring in the 2nd rounder to start with Cade.

Yeah, I am sure you will enjoy opening night.

Just because someone is drafted #7 it doesn't mean they should be gifted a starting spot in year two. It's time to earn it or get off the court. If 22 year old Saban Lee goes out on a nightly basis and earns it and outperforms Hayes he should be given the keys to the castle irregardless of where both players were drafted.

Saban scored 14 points tonight in 28 minutes, and during Killian's entire rookie season he only score 14+ points once and that was in a game he played 38 minutes and turned it over 7 times that game.

Saban also has been a solid defender. I don't see any type of significant advantage for Hayes in that area at all and advanced statistics back that up.

If you look at defensive rebounding rate, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes last season.
If you look at steal %, Saban Lee and Killian Hayes were exactly the same.
If you look at block % Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Win Shares" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Box Plus/Minus" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Value over a Replacement Player" or VORP, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes. (Killian was 2nd worst on the team only player he was better than was Sekou)

Killian Hayes also was the most inefficient scorer in the entire league, have the worst TS%. He also was the 2nd worst in the entire league at turning the ball over.

He was just really, really bad last year. It doesn't mean he can't be much better this season... and he's younger than Saban Lee by two years... but right now and last year Saban Lee was/is very clearly the better player. Perhaps when Killian is 22 like Saban is now, in two years, Killian will be better than Saban is currently... but he very clearly isn't better yet.

[treefi]

Saben showed in preseason and summer league that he worked on his three point shot. He plays solid defense. To act like Hayes completely out played him is straight up lying or totally blind. Saben may turn out to be a bench player, but based on their play, it’s a lot closer than what you make it out to be.

He's NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the defender or the passer that Hayes is, unreal. Saban Is a bench guy, this is totally obvious. But by all means, let's take this back up on opening night and you can have some fun when the 2nd rounder starts over the 7th overall pick who has much better size, reach, vision, rebounding, defense and passing.

I mean, it's obvious that Weaver and Casey weren't dreaming of Killian and Cade being an awesome defensive backcourt duo when they drafted Cade, they were dreaming of Saban and Cade being the backcourt of the future.

When Casey talked all summer about how he thought Killian and Cade would work well together he really meant to say Saban and Cade. And now clearly that Hayes came back off an injury in his first PREASON game and only scored 6 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds and 2 steals (more points that Jalen Green had the same night in more minutes) this was what Casey and Weaver were hoping for, that they would use that 1 preseason game to bench their no 7 draft pick with good size, good reach, very good passing and very good defense and very good court vision and bring in the 2nd rounder to start with Cade.

Yeah, I am sure you will enjoy opening night.

Just because someone is drafted #7 it doesn't mean they should be gifted a starting spot in year two. It's time to earn it or get off the court. If 22 year old Saban Lee goes out on a nightly basis and earns it and outperforms Hayes he should be given the keys to the castle irregardless of where both players were drafted.

Saban scored 14 points tonight in 28 minutes, and during Killian's entire rookie season he only score 14+ points once and that was in a game he played 38 minutes and turned it over 7 times that game.

Saban also has been a solid defender. I don't see any type of significant advantage for Hayes in that area at all and advanced statistics back that up.

If you look at defensive rebounding rate, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes last season.
If you look at steal %, Saban Lee and Killian Hayes were exactly the same.
If you look at block % Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Win Shares" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Box Plus/Minus" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Value over a Replacement Player" or VORP, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes. (Killian was 2nd worst on the team only player he was better than was Sekou)

Killian Hayes also was the most inefficient scorer in the entire league, have the worst TS%. He also was the 2nd worst in the entire league at turning the ball over.

He was just really, really bad last year. It doesn't mean he can't be much better this season... and he's younger than Saban Lee by two years... but right now and last year Saban Lee was/is very clearly the better player. Perhaps when Killian is 22 like Saban is now, in two years, Killian will be better than Saban is currently... but he very clearly isn't better yet.

Couldn't agree more. I'll add that Saben is much more athletic (44" vertical) than Killian. His father had a nine-year career in the NFL as a running back.

[Pistonrings]

Saben showed in preseason and summer league that he worked on his three point shot. He plays solid defense. To act like Hayes completely out played him is straight up lying or totally blind. Saben may turn out to be a bench player, but based on their play, it’s a lot closer than what you make it out to be.

He's NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the defender or the passer that Hayes is, unreal. Saban Is a bench guy, this is totally obvious. But by all means, let's take this back up on opening night and you can have some fun when the 2nd rounder starts over the 7th overall pick who has much better size, reach, vision, rebounding, defense and passing.

I mean, it's obvious that Weaver and Casey weren't dreaming of Killian and Cade being an awesome defensive backcourt duo when they drafted Cade, they were dreaming of Saban and Cade being the backcourt of the future.

When Casey talked all summer about how he thought Killian and Cade would work well together he really meant to say Saban and Cade. And now clearly that Hayes came back off an injury in his first PREASON game and only scored 6 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds and 2 steals (more points that Jalen Green had the same night in more minutes) this was what Casey and Weaver were hoping for, that they would use that 1 preseason game to bench their no 7 draft pick with good size, good reach, very good passing and very good defense and very good court vision and bring in the 2nd rounder to start with Cade.

Yeah, I am sure you will enjoy opening night.

Just because someone is drafted #7 it doesn't mean they should be gifted a starting spot in year two. It's time to earn it or get off the court. If 22 year old Saban Lee goes out on a nightly basis and earns it and outperforms Hayes he should be given the keys to the castle irregardless of where both players were drafted.

Saban scored 14 points tonight in 28 minutes, and during Killian's entire rookie season he only score 14+ points once and that was in a game he played 38 minutes and turned it over 7 times that game.

Saban also has been a solid defender. I don't see any type of significant advantage for Hayes in that area at all and advanced statistics back that up.

If you look at defensive rebounding rate, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes last season.
If you look at steal %, Saban Lee and Killian Hayes were exactly the same.
If you look at block % Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Win Shares" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Box Plus/Minus" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Value over a Replacement Player" or VORP, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes. (Killian was 2nd worst on the team only player he was better than was Sekou)

Killian Hayes also was the most inefficient scorer in the entire league, have the worst TS%. He also was the 2nd worst in the entire league at turning the ball over.

He was just really, really bad last year. It doesn't mean he can't be much better this season... and he's younger than Saban Lee by two years... but right now and last year Saban Lee was/is very clearly the better player. Perhaps when Killian is 22 like Saban is now, in two years, Killian will be better than Saban is currently... but he very clearly isn't better yet.

And these numbers you didn't post links to, uh, how many games did Killian's play in last year? Oh that's right, 26 games. Killian is bigger, clearly a better defender, better passer and has far better vision.

But again, your point will be proven when Saban starts over Killian alongside Cade, right?. So we don't have long to wait for Saban to be starting the regular season over Killian with injuries not a factor.

[treefi]

He's NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the defender or the passer that Hayes is, unreal. Saban Is a bench guy, this is totally obvious. But by all means, let's take this back up on opening night and you can have some fun when the 2nd rounder starts over the 7th overall pick who has much better size, reach, vision, rebounding, defense and passing.

I mean, it's obvious that Weaver and Casey weren't dreaming of Killian and Cade being an awesome defensive backcourt duo when they drafted Cade, they were dreaming of Saban and Cade being the backcourt of the future.

When Casey talked all summer about how he thought Killian and Cade would work well together he really meant to say Saban and Cade. And now clearly that Hayes came back off an injury in his first PREASON game and only scored 6 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds and 2 steals (more points that Jalen Green had the same night in more minutes) this was what Casey and Weaver were hoping for, that they would use that 1 preseason game to bench their no 7 draft pick with good size, good reach, very good passing and very good defense and very good court vision and bring in the 2nd rounder to start with Cade.

Yeah, I am sure you will enjoy opening night.

Just because someone is drafted #7 it doesn't mean they should be gifted a starting spot in year two. It's time to earn it or get off the court. If 22 year old Saban Lee goes out on a nightly basis and earns it and outperforms Hayes he should be given the keys to the castle irregardless of where both players were drafted.

Saban scored 14 points tonight in 28 minutes, and during Killian's entire rookie season he only score 14+ points once and that was in a game he played 38 minutes and turned it over 7 times that game.

Saban also has been a solid defender. I don't see any type of significant advantage for Hayes in that area at all and advanced statistics back that up.

If you look at defensive rebounding rate, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes last season.
If you look at steal %, Saban Lee and Killian Hayes were exactly the same.
If you look at block % Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Win Shares" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Box Plus/Minus" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Value over a Replacement Player" or VORP, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes. (Killian was 2nd worst on the team only player he was better than was Sekou)

Killian Hayes also was the most inefficient scorer in the entire league, have the worst TS%. He also was the 2nd worst in the entire league at turning the ball over.

He was just really, really bad last year. It doesn't mean he can't be much better this season... and he's younger than Saban Lee by two years... but right now and last year Saban Lee was/is very clearly the better player. Perhaps when Killian is 22 like Saban is now, in two years, Killian will be better than Saban is currently... but he very clearly isn't better yet.

And these numbers you didn't post links to, uh, how many games did Killian's play in last year? Oh that's right, 26 games. Killian is bigger, clearly a better defender, better passer and has far better vision.

But again, your point will be proven when Saban starts over Killian alongside Cade, right?. So we don't have long to wait for Saban to be starting the regular season over Killian with injuries not a factor.

Sekou Doumbouya (reeeally bad player, we can agree now right?) started 11 games for Detroit last year. It means nothing, especially in context with your current Killian vs. Lee argument.

[mattao313]

Pistonrings must be Killian's dad. LMAO

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using RealGM mobile app

[bstein14]

He's NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the defender or the passer that Hayes is, unreal. Saban Is a bench guy, this is totally obvious. But by all means, let's take this back up on opening night and you can have some fun when the 2nd rounder starts over the 7th overall pick who has much better size, reach, vision, rebounding, defense and passing.

I mean, it's obvious that Weaver and Casey weren't dreaming of Killian and Cade being an awesome defensive backcourt duo when they drafted Cade, they were dreaming of Saban and Cade being the backcourt of the future.

When Casey talked all summer about how he thought Killian and Cade would work well together he really meant to say Saban and Cade. And now clearly that Hayes came back off an injury in his first PREASON game and only scored 6 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds and 2 steals (more points that Jalen Green had the same night in more minutes) this was what Casey and Weaver were hoping for, that they would use that 1 preseason game to bench their no 7 draft pick with good size, good reach, very good passing and very good defense and very good court vision and bring in the 2nd rounder to start with Cade.

Yeah, I am sure you will enjoy opening night.

Just because someone is drafted #7 it doesn't mean they should be gifted a starting spot in year two. It's time to earn it or get off the court. If 22 year old Saban Lee goes out on a nightly basis and earns it and outperforms Hayes he should be given the keys to the castle irregardless of where both players were drafted.

Saban scored 14 points tonight in 28 minutes, and during Killian's entire rookie season he only score 14+ points once and that was in a game he played 38 minutes and turned it over 7 times that game.

Saban also has been a solid defender. I don't see any type of significant advantage for Hayes in that area at all and advanced statistics back that up.

If you look at defensive rebounding rate, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes last season.
If you look at steal %, Saban Lee and Killian Hayes were exactly the same.
If you look at block % Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Win Shares" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Box Plus/Minus" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Value over a Replacement Player" or VORP, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes. (Killian was 2nd worst on the team only player he was better than was Sekou)

Killian Hayes also was the most inefficient scorer in the entire league, have the worst TS%. He also was the 2nd worst in the entire league at turning the ball over.

He was just really, really bad last year. It doesn't mean he can't be much better this season... and he's younger than Saban Lee by two years... but right now and last year Saban Lee was/is very clearly the better player. Perhaps when Killian is 22 like Saban is now, in two years, Killian will be better than Saban is currently... but he very clearly isn't better yet.

And these numbers you didn't post links to, uh, how many games did Killian's play in last year? Oh that's right, 26 games. Killian is bigger, clearly a better defender, better passer and has far better vision.

But again, your point will be proven when Saban starts over Killian alongside Cade, right?. So we don't have long to wait for Saban to be starting the regular season over Killian with injuries not a factor.

Being bigger doesn't mean anything. Killian is not clearly a better defender. He is an aggressive defender for sure, but when you look at the ability to stop the opposing player from scoring, the knowledge of team and help side defense, the ability to defend the pick and roll (which Killian has not been good at partly due to his lack of experience and partly due to not being very quick) Killian is clearly not very good in these areas and still has a ton of work to do.

Killian certainly made some nice passes last season, especially down the stretch... but overall you can't look at what he did and think he's great handling the basketball with the amount of TO's he had been making. Hopefully its something he cuts back on this season...

I don't see how anyone can watch the last game and then this one and think Killian is a better player. Of course we need a much larger sample size from both and we need to play some regular season games... but it feels like a lot of people are riding on Killian more so based on where he was drafted and not what they are actually seeing take place out on the court.

[treefi]

Just because someone is drafted #7 it doesn't mean they should be gifted a starting spot in year two. It's time to earn it or get off the court. If 22 year old Saban Lee goes out on a nightly basis and earns it and outperforms Hayes he should be given the keys to the castle irregardless of where both players were drafted.

Saban scored 14 points tonight in 28 minutes, and during Killian's entire rookie season he only score 14+ points once and that was in a game he played 38 minutes and turned it over 7 times that game.

Saban also has been a solid defender. I don't see any type of significant advantage for Hayes in that area at all and advanced statistics back that up.

If you look at defensive rebounding rate, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes last season.
If you look at steal %, Saban Lee and Killian Hayes were exactly the same.
If you look at block % Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Win Shares" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Box Plus/Minus" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Value over a Replacement Player" or VORP, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes. (Killian was 2nd worst on the team only player he was better than was Sekou)

Killian Hayes also was the most inefficient scorer in the entire league, have the worst TS%. He also was the 2nd worst in the entire league at turning the ball over.

He was just really, really bad last year. It doesn't mean he can't be much better this season... and he's younger than Saban Lee by two years... but right now and last year Saban Lee was/is very clearly the better player. Perhaps when Killian is 22 like Saban is now, in two years, Killian will be better than Saban is currently... but he very clearly isn't better yet.

And these numbers you didn't post links to, uh, how many games did Killian's play in last year? Oh that's right, 26 games. Killian is bigger, clearly a better defender, better passer and has far better vision.

But again, your point will be proven when Saban starts over Killian alongside Cade, right?. So we don't have long to wait for Saban to be starting the regular season over Killian with injuries not a factor.

Being bigger doesn't mean anything. Killian is not clearly a better defender. He is an aggressive defender for sure, but when you look at the ability to stop the opposing player from scoring, the knowledge of team and help side defense, the ability to defend the pick and roll (which Killian has not been good at partly due to his lack of experience and partly due to not being very quick) Killian is clearly not very good in these areas and still has a ton of work to do.

Killian certainly made some nice passes last season, especially down the stretch... but overall you can't look at what he did and think he's great handling the basketball with the amount of TO's he had been making. Hopefully its something he cuts back on this season...

I don't see how anyone can watch the last game and then this one and think Killian is a better player. Of course we need a much larger sample size from both and we need to play some regular season games... but it feels like a lot of people are riding on Killian more so based on where he was drafted and not what they are actually seeing take place out on the court.

Right. I think people see Killian's potential to be an elite defender and mix it up with current reality. I would love to be wrong about Killian but I couldn't agree with you more. Hope he proves us both wrong.

[FloridaMan78]

:banghead:
Saban is streaky and not a good enough asset or defender, he is a bench guy. He's a spark plug who can hopefully come in and shoot well consistently. There's no decision to be made other than how much time he will get compared to CoJo off the bench.

Saben showed in preseason and summer league that he worked on his three point shot. He plays solid defense. To act like Hayes completely out played him is straight up lying or totally blind. Saben may turn out to be a bench player, but based on their play, it’s a lot closer than what you make it out to be.

He's NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the defender or the passer that Hayes is, unreal. Saban Is a bench guy, this is totally obvious. But by all means, let's take this back up on opening night and you can have some fun when the 2nd rounder starts over the 7th overall pick who has much better size, reach, vision, rebounding, defense and passing.

I mean, it's obvious that Weaver and Casey weren't dreaming of Killian and Cade being an awesome defensive backcourt duo when they drafted Cade, they were dreaming of Saban and Cade being the backcourt of the future.

When Casey talked all summer about how he thought Killian and Cade would work well together he really meant to say Saban and Cade. And now clearly that Hayes came back off an injury in his first PREASON game and only scored 6 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds and 2 steals (more points that Jalen Green had the same night in more minutes) this was what Casey and Weaver were hoping for, that they would use that 1 preseason game to bench their no 7 draft pick with good size, good reach, very good passing and very good defense and very good court vision and bring in the 2nd rounder to start with Cade.

Yeah, I am sure you will enjoy opening night.

You can argue Hayes has more potential, or looks better than Saben. But statistically Saben has been better in summer league and preseason this year, those are just facts. So to say Hayes is soooo much better just isn’t true.

[440BB]

I think Lee has shown us enough to at least spell his name. Just think of Ben Wallace before you type. SaBEN.

With a little practice, it gets natural. One can optionally repeat it in the tone of "Bueller, Bueller, Bueller"

Saben

Saben

Saben

Saben

Saben

Saben

Saben

Saben

Saben

SaBEN

[FloridaMan78]

In 48 games last year Saben Lee was 8/23 from three

In his 5 summer league and 3 preseason games he was 12/25

Really happy for him to see the work he put in during the off-season paying off.

[Manocad]

Pistonrings must be Killian's dad. LMAO

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using RealGM mobile app

If that's true then we have a few members here who must be Killian's hump and dumps.

The point remains that dumping a #7 draft pick with high potential because he isn't performing the way you want him to after 20-something games for any player who might be playing a little better right now but is likely a bench player in the NBA makes no sense. Especially when everyone is saying this is still a rebuilding year, wins don't mean anything because this team doesn't appear close to contending this year, need to draft another (hopefully) superstar, Hayes hasn't spent any legitimate time on the floor with Cade, etc. In other words, people talking out of both sides of their face. I'd continue to ask the same question--what is the harm in letting Hayes start with Cade for half a season? More losses? Big deal. "It will hinder Cade's development"? BS. The role Cade will play doesn't require ANY specific player next to him in order for him to develop. It will only be a question of what stats he'll put up. Does Cade get worse at driving the lane or shooting the ball because defenses are collapsing on him, knowing the guard next to him can't shoot well? No. If anything that will make him BETTER because he'll have to work harder to be more successful.

By all means, anyone can have an opinion that Hayes won't live up to his potential and absolutely may be right. But no one can argue that to be true at this point. The idea that anyone knows what any player's career will be like after 20-some games is ridiculous outside of the bona fide, can't miss monster players. And even then it's still something of an unknown. Thought they were going to be stars and were cooked by 25? Ralph Sampson, Pervis Ellison, Eddy Curry, Harold Miner. The average amount of time taken to make an All Star game? 5 years. Which falls right in line with an NBA player's average peak age of 27.

And I'll continue to throw the caveat out there that I am NOT a Hayes fan boy. I didn't even know who he was when he was drafted and it's no skin off my nose if he does turn out to be a bust; I want the team to be good. I'm simply arguing the point that not only is it too soon to bail on him as a starter, but it doesn't even make sense from any standpoint.

[Manocad]

:banghead:

Saben had a great game. Pistons toughness showed up. Another game from Saben like that and Casey is gonna have a to make a tough decision.

Saban is streaky and not a good enough asset or defender, he is a bench guy. He's a spark plug who can hopefully come in and shoot well consistently. There's no decision to be made other than how much time he will get compared to CoJo off the bench.

Saben showed in preseason and summer league that he worked on his three point shot. He plays solid defense. To act like Hayes completely out played him is straight up lying or totally blind. Saben may turn out to be a bench player, but based on their play, it’s a lot closer than what you make it out to be.

To act like Casey has to make a tough decision anytime in the near future is straight up lying. I challenge you to lay out a timeline of events showing why Casey will have to make that tough decision after one more good game from Lee in order for the team to be successful moving forward or fail if he doesn't choose to put Lee into the starting lineup over Hayes. Go ahead; I'll wait.

You guys keep throwing the hyperbole out there and I'm gonna keep breaking your balls on it; you can bet on that.

[thesack12]

He's NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the defender or the passer that Hayes is, unreal. Saban Is a bench guy, this is totally obvious. But by all means, let's take this back up on opening night and you can have some fun when the 2nd rounder starts over the 7th overall pick who has much better size, reach, vision, rebounding, defense and passing.

I mean, it's obvious that Weaver and Casey weren't dreaming of Killian and Cade being an awesome defensive backcourt duo when they drafted Cade, they were dreaming of Saban and Cade being the backcourt of the future.

When Casey talked all summer about how he thought Killian and Cade would work well together he really meant to say Saban and Cade. And now clearly that Hayes came back off an injury in his first PREASON game and only scored 6 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds and 2 steals (more points that Jalen Green had the same night in more minutes) this was what Casey and Weaver were hoping for, that they would use that 1 preseason game to bench their no 7 draft pick with good size, good reach, very good passing and very good defense and very good court vision and bring in the 2nd rounder to start with Cade.

Yeah, I am sure you will enjoy opening night.

Just because someone is drafted #7 it doesn't mean they should be gifted a starting spot in year two. It's time to earn it or get off the court. If 22 year old Saban Lee goes out on a nightly basis and earns it and outperforms Hayes he should be given the keys to the castle irregardless of where both players were drafted.

Saban scored 14 points tonight in 28 minutes, and during Killian's entire rookie season he only score 14+ points once and that was in a game he played 38 minutes and turned it over 7 times that game.

Saban also has been a solid defender. I don't see any type of significant advantage for Hayes in that area at all and advanced statistics back that up.

If you look at defensive rebounding rate, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes last season.
If you look at steal %, Saban Lee and Killian Hayes were exactly the same.
If you look at block % Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Win Shares" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Defensive Box Plus/Minus" Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes.
If you look at "Value over a Replacement Player" or VORP, Saban Lee was better than Killian Hayes. (Killian was 2nd worst on the team only player he was better than was Sekou)

Killian Hayes also was the most inefficient scorer in the entire league, have the worst TS%. He also was the 2nd worst in the entire league at turning the ball over.

He was just really, really bad last year. It doesn't mean he can't be much better this season... and he's younger than Saban Lee by two years... but right now and last year Saban Lee was/is very clearly the better player. Perhaps when Killian is 22 like Saban is now, in two years, Killian will be better than Saban is currently... but he very clearly isn't better yet.

And these numbers you didn't post links to, uh, how many games did Killian's play in last year? Oh that's right, 26 games. Killian is bigger, clearly a better defender, better passer and has far better vision.

But again, your point will be proven when Saban starts over Killian alongside Cade, right?. So we don't have long to wait for Saban to be starting the regular season over Killian with injuries not a factor.

Its interesting that someone who continuously insists on throwing out the same abstract claims of Killian being a good defender and good passer, attempts to denigrate a post that contains actual data because a link wasn't posted.

Here is your link, its all there under the "advanced" section...

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2021.html

[Moses ShamMoses]

I'd be fine with removing Killian from the starting lineup if we have better options. I do think we need to keep developing him though. If that means coming off the bench or even playing some games with the motorcity cruise so be it. I ultiately think he needs to build his confidence up and maybe playing against starters isnt the place for that.

[vic]

Saben is definitely the truth, you could see it last year.

This is why to this day I’m confused that Cory Joseph is back on this team.

Between Killian, Cade, and Saben there are definitely enough ball handlers on the team.

I get having “A” solid vet for the locker room but you don’t need to clog up playing time at every single position.

Hopefully Cory Joseph is off to a help a contender by the trade deadline.

I’m all in for BEN Lee as the backup pg.