I hate it, but Weaver absolutely has to be fired.

[DBC10]

When you're 2-22, everyone should be expendable. I think Cade has finally reached that Rodney Stuckey tier of excuses around here.

So we're all in agreement that Monty has been one of the top 3 factors in the malpractice of this team, defense & offense wise. Good

What is the consensus on what Cade "could be"? People in the past mentioned a skinnier Luka, more midrange bound Tatum with less defense, and a shade of D. Booker thrown in there? I personally think he's just a guy that can run some PnRs, hit some mid range shots, and can occasionally play make. Sort of a early PHO Booker and Toronto Demar archetype that are not the number 1 guys in any team but can be a decent number 2 and a great number 3

Is that really a franchise worthy player?

[Billl]

When you're 2-22, everyone should be expendable. I think Cade has finally reached that Rodney Stuckey tier of excuses around here.

So we're all in agreement that Monty has been one of the top 3 factors in the malpractice of this team, defense & offense wise. Good

What is the consensus on what Cade "could be"? People in the past mentioned a skinnier Luka, more midrange bound Tatum with less defense, and a shade of D. Booker thrown in there? I personally think he's just a guy that can run some PnRs, hit some mid range shots, and can occasionally play make. Sort of a early PHO Booker and Toronto Demar archetype that are not the number 1 guys in any team but can be a decent number 2 and a great number 3

Is that really a franchise worthy player?

So, you assume his ceiling is a decent #2 and then ask if he's a franchise player? That's just restating your assumption. The guy has played 100 nba game. He's clearly not a MVP type guys right now. Everything else is just a projection. He's #8 in assists though, so he's clearly better than "can make an occasional play".

Personally, I don't think he's ever going to be a 30 ppg type guy. He's going to be mid 20's and stuff the rest of the stat sheet. You are going to need at least 1 all star caliber, high power scorer next to him. Of course, that is going to be true for almost every "star" player as well.

[DBC10]

When you're 2-22, everyone should be expendable. I think Cade has finally reached that Rodney Stuckey tier of excuses around here.

So we're all in agreement that Monty has been one of the top 3 factors in the malpractice of this team, defense & offense wise. Good

What is the consensus on what Cade "could be"? People in the past mentioned a skinnier Luka, more midrange bound Tatum with less defense, and a shade of D. Booker thrown in there? I personally think he's just a guy that can run some PnRs, hit some mid range shots, and can occasionally play make. Sort of a early PHO Booker and Toronto Demar archetype that are not the number 1 guys in any team but can be a decent number 2 and a great number 3

Is that really a franchise worthy player?

So, you assume his ceiling is a decent #2 and then ask if he's a franchise player? That's just restating your assumption. The guy has played 100 nba game. He's clearly not a MVP type guys right now. Everything else is just a projection. He's #8 in assists though, so he's clearly better than "can make an occasional play".

Personally, I don't think he's ever going to be a 30 ppg type guy. He's going to be mid 20's and stuff the rest of the stat sheet. You are going to need at least 1 all star caliber, high power scorer next to him. Of course, that is going to be true for almost every "star" player as well.

Let me clarify, I think he's currently playing like a decent number #2 talent now but hypothesizing if people actually do see him in the long term that he can be a true franchise leading player. I currently don't see it as such and that's not necessarily a knock more reality setting in compared to the hype and where he was drafted

As far as the assists goes, he still leads the league in turnovers which does put a big damper in his ability to actually lead an offense

[ComboGuardCity]

Cade is most definitely not the best player in his draft class…

Not even close.

Mobley, Barnes, Williams, Sengun have all been comfortably better. And that’s just off the top of my head.

The reclamation projects have been a disaster, but so as the roster construction as a whole. Even if I agreed that Ivey would be like Fox (I don’t), Fox would be a terrible fit with whatever the best hypothetical versions of Cade and Ausar are.

And that’s without factoring in the abject failure that has been player development.

“Not even close” based on what? All of those guys have players better than them on their team. There is a reason GMs were highest on Cade of the bunch during preseason and there is a reason Cade shined in FIBA workouts. Maybe there is a debate but not even close is hyperbolic.

Results. Not excuses. That’s what you need to make the big claim that Cade is the best in his draft class.

Ok, then in that case I would say Cade has the most value as a foundational piece. I think GMs in a draft would take Cade over all of those guys. We can agree to disagree.

[Billl]

So we're all in agreement that Monty has been one of the top 3 factors in the malpractice of this team, defense & offense wise. Good

What is the consensus on what Cade "could be"? People in the past mentioned a skinnier Luka, more midrange bound Tatum with less defense, and a shade of D. Booker thrown in there? I personally think he's just a guy that can run some PnRs, hit some mid range shots, and can occasionally play make. Sort of a early PHO Booker and Toronto Demar archetype that are not the number 1 guys in any team but can be a decent number 2 and a great number 3

Is that really a franchise worthy player?

So, you assume his ceiling is a decent #2 and then ask if he's a franchise player? That's just restating your assumption. The guy has played 100 nba game. He's clearly not a MVP type guys right now. Everything else is just a projection. He's #8 in assists though, so he's clearly better than "can make an occasional play".

Personally, I don't think he's ever going to be a 30 ppg type guy. He's going to be mid 20's and stuff the rest of the stat sheet. You are going to need at least 1 all star caliber, high power scorer next to him. Of course, that is going to be true for almost every "star" player as well.

Let me clarify, I think he's currently playing like a decent number #2 talent now but hypothesizing if people actually do see him in the long term that he can be a true franchise leading player. I currently don't see it as such and that's not necessarily a knock more reality setting in compared to the hype and where he was drafted

As far as the assists goes, he still leads the league in turnovers which does put a big damper in his ability to actually lead an offense

He's 22 and putting up fairly big raw numbers on low efficiency and spotty defense. I think he's likely to improve over the next 5 years. So 22/7/4 as a baseline and building from there? Would 25/8/4 on better efficiency and better defensive habits be a "franchise" player? I'd say yes. Will he get there? Who knows. We should be putting in some effort to develop him in that direction though and surround him with some guys who compliment his talents.

And turnover headed in the right direction
Oct - 5.3
Nov - 4.3
Dec - 2.6
Not surprisingly, when bojan returned, teams couldn't just swarm cade every play and his turnovers reflect that. He's still got a lot of work to do handling those doubles becuase he's still going to see them down the stretch of games, but hopefully we've turned the corner a bit in that regard.

[Kalamazoo317]

I think Cade is probably a #2 longterm. I think the number of true #1 franchise players in the league is very small, though, like 20ish. I'm not sure *anyone* in Cade's class is a #2. Franz is a #2. Scottie is a #2. Mobley is a defensive specialist who might develop into a #3 on offense. Giddy is going to jail. Etc.

[zeebneeb]

Wow, this thread just got depressing.

Who's for a complete restart?

From new ownership, to new players, and everything in-between!

[edmunder_prc]

I think Cade could be a 1B to a 1A like a Tatum, Brown situation.

Cade has a ton of interesting skills, acts like a team player, but could really use another guy like him who has some elite athleticism to allow him to play off ball a lot more. That would also help him because he would be a different speed.

He needs a strong PG to play with and its no fault of his own. Its just how it is. I like Cade but he is not a prime Harden or prime Wade, he needs someone else to handle the ball and which lets Cade do his thing.

He reminds me of a Billups type player that needs a Hamilton and Sheed to shine.

The main problem is that he has elite skills, but they aren't really on-ball PG skills because he is too slow for modern offenses. He would have thrived 20-30 years ago.

-------------------------
Oh and I called for Weaver firing last year and predicted bottom 5 team. Going all out year 1 and getting Hayes, Bey and Stewart, plus Saben Lee was a HUGE failure. The sheer number of garbage that Weaver has brought in, hoping 1 would blossom, and shooting 0-20 on those is staggering.

[JD43320]

Wow, this thread just got depressing.

Who's for a complete restart?

From new ownership, to new players, and everything in-between!

I'd prefer a list of people who are not for clearing house from top to bottom. Makes it easier to block the morons.

[bstein14]

I can't blame Weaver for draft misses because all GMs will have some misses in the draft. FA's his first season in Plumlee and Grant were solid, but in reality Plumlee wasn't really that important we could/should have just kept Dedmon instead of waiving/stretching him.

Once it was clear that Killian wasn't an NBA level player we shouldn't have picked up his option for this season for $7+ million. We shouldn't have paid Bagley that big bag for three years. We shouldn't have blown $40+ million of cap space this season on Harris + Morris.

Trading Bey for another non shooting big was a huge mistake.... we should have taken the 5 seconds from Atlanta or Gary Payton Jr from Portland in that deal.

The sad thing now is, Ausar came in looking full of energy and life and already this atmosphere has really taken that out of him IMO. You don't want the losing/loser culture to seep in and have long lasting impacts on the young guys coming in. It's 100% the reason why Weaver needed to churn the tank roster over more before starting this season with Monty.

What's also crazy is that the national media feels like there is zero pressure on Weaver coming from Management... like he gets 5 years before we start even thinking about looking at his work.

Still have no idea what we're going to do this summer.
Are we picking up the option to keep Bojan? Are we letting all the older FA's walk (Burks, Morris, etc). Are we letting the young guys walk and not offering a QO(Wiseman and Hayes)... Are we offering Cade a $240+ million rookie MAX deal to lock him up for five more years? Are we doing anything else will all the rest of our cap space?

Just waiting for us to trade for an overpaid fringe starter (like Collins) and then have someone like Bey be our big FA target this summer.

[buzzkilloton]

Wow, this thread just got depressing.

Who's for a complete restart?

From new ownership, to new players, and everything in-between!

The play is clearly to nuke it. Obv we cant fire Gores and I doubt were firing Monty year one after backing up the truck for him. Weaver though he should of been gone before this historically bad season hes gotta go.

As far as the players I'd trade them all just to change the loser Weaver culture. Obv a few of our young players have talent but said talent is why we can actually get some value back on them. We really need to unload all of the Weaver from our team to succeed.

[Piston Pete]

Is the NBA at least partially to blame?

Is this season a byproduct of the worst team in the NBA getting leapfrogged by 4 teams in the draft lottery and falling to the #5 pick?

That basically equates to 4 teams pushing even further down the ladder.

[joedumars1]

Is the NBA at least partially to blame?

Is this season a byproduct of the worst team in the NBA getting leapfrogged by 4 teams in the draft lottery and falling to the #5 pick?

That basically equates to 4 teams pushing even further down the ladder.

Not sure. Wemb would give fan base more hope, but ausar was looking like very good for awhile. Wouldn’t be so doom and gloom with cade/wemb as prospects tho

[DBC10]

Is the NBA at least partially to blame?

Is this season a byproduct of the worst team in the NBA getting leapfrogged by 4 teams in the draft lottery and falling to the #5 pick?

That basically equates to 4 teams pushing even further down the ladder.

The flattened odds certainly has some blame to go, but at the same time a good GM/ownership would still have contingencies upon contingency plans to make sure you don't become the most depressed team in the league

Not saying Weaver doesn't adhere to that but it certainly looks like even this timeline was something he never saw coming

[Snakebites]

Is the NBA at least partially to blame?

Is this season a byproduct of the worst team in the NBA getting leapfrogged by 4 teams in the draft lottery and falling to the #5 pick?

That basically equates to 4 teams pushing even further down the ladder.

A team shouldn’t be able to buy a ticket out of hell by being the worst.

And the top 4 picks haven’t set the world on fire to start.

You can probably put an All-Star G-League team on the floor and get them to win 2 games out of 25. That’s what our roster building has amounted to.

[Spider156]

Cade is most definitely not the best player in his draft class…

Not even close.

Mobley, Barnes, Williams, Sengun have all been comfortably better. And that’s just off the top of my head.

The reclamation projects have been a disaster, but so as the roster construction as a whole. Even if I agreed that Ivey would be like Fox (I don’t), Fox would be a terrible fit with whatever the best hypothetical versions of Cade and Ausar are.

And that’s without factoring in the abject failure that has been player development.

Cade is gonna have a full 20 year career like Chris Paul if he stays healthy. You don’t compare Chris Paul to guys in his draft, that’s a shame. These guys run multiple offenses in their careers and you can’t say that’s not the best in the draft. You can have your opinion but anyone that runs an offense deserves a max contract. You wanna compare max contracts you’ll have to see them finish out the contracts because players get paid for potential not production. All the Cade comments isn’t worth making. Get the guy help!

It’s interesting you mention Chris Paul. He was drafted by an 18 win team. Yes- a WORSE team than Cade was drafted by. Had the greatest rookie season for a point guard since Magic, they improved by 20 games. By year three he had one of the best point guard seasons in history.

THAT’S what a franchise changing player looks like. This isn’t it.

If you think Cade has earned a max contract based on this performance…well, I just don’t know what to say. He may be running our offense, but he has not proven he’s a guy who should be.

I think Cade is going to be either a #2 guy or a #3 guy. Right now he looks like a #2 guy to me and that’s worth a max contract. When has Chris Paul been successful being #1 guy? Never. Another thing people don’t consider, when teams win usually it’s because they got hot and made a lot of shots efficiently. That’s why a team wins. Why do teams lose? The opposite reason, they’re inefficient. Okay so we are 2-23 now and you want Cade to have efficient numbers? It doesn’t make sense. I can promise you if we were 12-12 his numbers would be significantly better specially in the assists department and with space the turnovers lessen. No Cade is fine man. He’s a guy like Lowry, he runs an offense, he’s a top 3 option. Chauncey Billups, top 3 option. A guy like Daaron Fox, Tony Parker, you think Cade won’t be better than Tony Parker? Tony is one of the best in history or was it all Duncan? The Cade hate doesn’t make sense. Let me simplify it for you, no he is NOT Luka he is NOT Tatum, he’s not a high volume scorer, not yet at least. He might get there, never know.

[One_and_Done]

Weaver's record is terrible. I wouldn't hold my breath on him getting fired though. The reason he hasn't been fired yet is the same reason he was hired to begin with.

[Kilo]

Cade has little brother syndrome. His "big brother" has too much influence in his life to the point he's never developed the alpha mindset, but just wants to get along and be one of the guys.

That's my dime store psychologist read on him.

[Kalamazoo317]

I think Cade could be a 1B to a 1A like a Tatum, Brown situation.

I guess that's where our lexicon breaks down a bit, because I don't see Brown as a #1 at all. I think if he were the best player on a team, it'd be a treadmill team at the very best. I think he's a clear #2.

[whitehops]

honestly bojan and cade should be traded.

not because it'd be good for the team, just because they don't deserve this ****. cade looks broken out there and bojan doesn't have much time left in his career.