Best Available Player for Ausar + Tobias + picks

[tmorgan]

I don't get this notion that Ausar is untouchable. Unless he learns to shoot -- and though I'm hopeful, the odds are against him -- he's not going to be a particularly good player. The value he brings on defense will be severely eaten into by what he subtracts on defense in that scenario, particularly in the postseason.

I sort of agree here, but consider this:

In the regular season, even in his current form, he was mostly fine. Hard cuts, transition points, and his current favorite shot, the runner going across the free throw line area (on which he hangs in the air what seems like forever). He also ran the offense decently for short spurts, and of course caused havoc on defense nightly. He was a big positive and seemed to be the spark for our mid-season level up after Ivey went down.

Now in the playoffs, his offensive weaknesses are definitely magnified, transition buckets are scarce, and opportunities to go over people are diminished. But… he’s already our best POA defender and was used that way, which is extremely valuable, and while his lack of experience showed against Brunson, that should only get better with time. It’s sacrificing offense for defense, something Detroit has no qualms about doing.

I’m not married to Ausar if the right deal comes along, because I have a lot of faith in Holland’s future as well. But if we trade Thompson, it shouldn’t be for some good-but-not-great PF of the future, or as the primary piece for an overpaid Robin that isn’t a guaranteed star. In other words, not for Jabari Smith Jr. or the like, and not for Markkanen or Jaylen Brown. Either go really big or just run it back.

[the_l_train]

Ausar really is an odd player ---- seems like he can play all positions but hard to say his best position.

I was pleasantly surprised when he took over the main ball handling role at the end of the season when Cade was hurt. He was way more fluid and better with ball handling/playmaking than I expected. He seemed more impactful than when we had him in the forward roles.

We really haven't experimented with him as small ball center yet either....it worked with Amen in Houston when Sengun was out. Depends on matchups obviously, but he has the athleticism to do it in a pinch.

Figure we have him penciled in at the 3 or 4 long term, but his best position may be more of a guard like his brother...

[bstein14]

Ausar has massive upside he very easily could be a 20/8/5 all-defense team all-star in 3 to 4 years when he enters the beginning part of his prime. There's a reason why his brother is the only player on Houston who is off limits in trade talks. That said, he does have to develop a shot in order to really hit all-star level player.

I could easily see him becoming a Shawn Marion type player in a few seasons.

[joedumars1]

The thing we know about ausar is he lives and breaths the game, you don’t trade that. He’s so young and he just lives and breaths the game. So athletic, can pass, can d up, sure wish he could shoot 32% or higher from 3, but maybe that come he works and works. Was coming off an off season where I’m guessing he wasn’t able to do much with the blood clot.

[jars]

I assume he isn't on the table, but what would you be willing to trade to bring in Scottie Barnes? Would you want Scottie Barnes? I think he is a really solid 2 way player who can do lots of things well, probably a good number 2 rather than a number 1, played high school ball with Cade. He could be a $38 mill cap hit next year.

Is Ausar, Harris, Tech + a pick or two too rich for your taste?

[tmorgan]

I assume he isn't on the table, but what would you be willing to trade to bring in Scottie Barnes? Would you want Scottie Barnes? I think he is a really solid 2 way player who can do lots of things well, probably a good number 2 rather than a number 1, played high school ball with Cade. He could be a $38 mill cap hit next year.

Is Ausar, Harris, Tech + a pick or two too rich for your taste?

Scottie is a really bad fit with Cade.

He’s very talented, but he sucks at one thing — shooting. His strength as a forward playmaker would only be useful while Cade sits. His defense isn’t as good as Ausar’s, even though it’s very good. The other stuff we already have covered.

Cade’s future co-star absolutely has to be a shooter.

[Kalamazoo317]

No interest in Scottie. I think the package mentioned in the OP is one that's only considered for stars.

[NYPiston]

Ausar has massive upside he very easily could be a 20/8/5 all-defense team all-star in 3 to 4 years when he enters the beginning part of his prime. There's a reason why his brother is the only player on Houston who is off limits in trade talks. That said, he does have to develop a shot in order to really hit all-star level player.

I could easily see him becoming a Shawn Marion type player in a few seasons.

Even without much of a shot, he's still a plus player when he's on the court. His defense is so overwhelmingly good that it not only negates his lack of outside shooting, it creates a positive outcome so considering how absent his offense is that illustrates how strong his defense is.
Even if he never develops an outside shot, he still has a lot of value because he's so disruptive defensively that he creates offense for others simply by creating fast breaks with his disruptive defense creating turnovers and missed shots. If he ever develops an outside shot, he's a legit All Star player. I just don't think you can trade a player with his combination of elite athleticism, Basketball IQ and all world defensive acumen. If JB deployed Ausar properly, the Pistons-Knicks were going to play a toss up Game 7 and who knows where it goes from there.

[BadMofoPimp]

Auser can play all 5 positions effectively even filling in at PG and Center last season. Dude is phenominal talent and very young. Keep that over anything except an Elite superstar level talent.

[Kalamazoo317]

I just don't think you can trade a player with his combination of elite athleticism.

Of course you can. Hall of Fame players get traded. The question is, can you get what he's worth or more in a trade for him?

Folks want major upgrades. You don't get major upgrades without offering something of value. For our roster, that means Ausar, first round picks, and Tobias (for the money). That's our best possible non-Cade package. Can we get someone elite for that?

Folks seem more interested in "should we ever consider trading Ausar" as a topic than "what could we get if we did," though. I find the latter more interesting because A. We're probably going to stand pat and run it back this offseason anyway and B. It's a lot more interesting to discuss things in more concrete terms such as "package of players and picks A" versus "package of players and picks B" than "do I like this guy and want to keep him around?"

[uncleoswald]

ausar is pretty much untouchable but to try and answer the question, how about anunoby?

[Kalamazoo317]

ausar is pretty much untouchable but to try and answer the question, how about anunoby?

If the Knicks are willing to trade their best two-way player, I'm open for business

[Warspite]

Cooper Flag
Jokic
Booker
Harden
Kawhi

[Crymson]

I sort of agree here, but consider this:

In the regular season, even in his current form, he was mostly fine. Hard cuts, transition points, and his current favorite shot, the runner going across the free throw line area (on which he hangs in the air what seems like forever).

His halfcourt offense in the regular season was pretty much just cuts, putbacks, and the occasional drive. He was truly awful everywhere outside of the restricted area. That includes the aforementioned driving floaters, on which he shot south of 39%. "Mostly fine" is down to your definition. Fine against bad teams? For the most part, yes. Against good teams? More of a problem. He had a sub-50% EFG against top ten defenses last season -- versus upwards of 60% against bottom-ten defenses -- and that's separate from the very negative impact on the halfcourt offense overall of his inability to shoot. And let's not forget that the Pistons won only 12 out of 39 games last season against >.500 teams. What's fine in some situations is a lot less fine in others. And, of course, it's the least fine in the postseason.  

He also ran the offense decently for short spurts, and of course caused havoc on defense nightly.

He ran the offense a couple of times against bad teams. Better than Sasser? Yes. But that's a low bar. He was excellent on defense, for sure -- but like I said, there's a ceiling to how much defensive value a perimeter defender can provide.

He was a big positive and seemed to be the spark for our mid-season level up after Ivey went down.

There was a lot that went into that improvement: Bickerstaff finally getting the offense together, Duren deciding to try and to no longer be a total disaster as a result, a considerably easier strength of schedule, and so on. Did Ausar help? Yes. Was he a panacea? No.

Now in the playoffs, his offensive weaknesses are definitely magnified, transition buckets are scarce, and opportunities to go over people are diminished. But… he’s already our best POA defender and was used that way, which is extremely valuable, and while his lack of experience showed against Brunson, that should only get better with time. It’s sacrificing offense for defense, something Detroit has no qualms about doing.

Sacrificing the ability to run a viable offense for defense is not a winning strategy in the postseason, and it gets more problematic the further in you go and the better the quality of the opposition becomes. There's only one non-shooting perimeter player serving in a significant rotation role in the conference finals; that's McConnell, who's playing because he's what the Pacers have, and who has provided negative value because the offense has gone substantially downhill when he's been on the floor.

I’m not married to Ausar if the right deal comes along, because I have a lot of faith in Holland’s future as well. But if we trade Thompson, it shouldn’t be for some good-but-not-great PF of the future, or as the primary piece for an overpaid Robin that isn’t a guaranteed star. In other words, not for Jabari Smith Jr. or the like, and not for Markkanen or Jaylen Brown. Either go really big or just run it back.

Agreed. I wouldn't be trading any of the youth (aside from Duren) right now unless a really good opportunity comes along. It's too early for both the Pistons and other teams -- the latter is very relevant for trade value purposes -- to have a solid idea of what any of them are right now.

[flow]

I sort of agree here, but consider this:

In the regular season, even in his current form, he was mostly fine. Hard cuts, transition points, and his current favorite shot, the runner going across the free throw line area (on which he hangs in the air what seems like forever).

His halfcourt offense in the regular season was pretty much just cuts, putbacks, and the occasional drive. He was truly awful everywhere outside of the restricted area. That includes the aforementioned driving floaters, on which he shot south of 39%. "Mostly fine" is down to your definition. Fine against bad teams? For the most part, yes. Against good teams? More of a problem. He had a sub-50% EFG against top ten defenses last season -- versus upwards of 60% against bottom-ten defenses -- and that's separate from the very negative impact on the halfcourt offense overall of his inability to shoot. And let's not forget that the Pistons won only 12 out of 39 games last season against >.500 teams. What's fine in some situations is a lot less fine in others. And, of course, it's the least fine in the postseason.  

He also ran the offense decently for short spurts, and of course caused havoc on defense nightly.

He ran the offense a couple of times against bad teams. Better than Sasser? Yes. But that's a low bar. He was excellent on defense, for sure -- but like I said, there's a ceiling to how much defensive value a perimeter defender can provide.

He was a big positive and seemed to be the spark for our mid-season level up after Ivey went down.

There was a lot that went into that improvement: Bickerstaff finally getting the offense together, Duren deciding to try and to no longer be a total disaster as a result, a considerably easier strength of schedule, and so on. Did Ausar help? Yes. Was he a panacea? No.

Now in the playoffs, his offensive weaknesses are definitely magnified, transition buckets are scarce, and opportunities to go over people are diminished. But… he’s already our best POA defender and was used that way, which is extremely valuable, and while his lack of experience showed against Brunson, that should only get better with time. It’s sacrificing offense for defense, something Detroit has no qualms about doing.

Sacrificing the ability to run a viable offense for defense is not a winning strategy in the postseason, and it gets more problematic the further in you go and the better the quality of the opposition becomes. There's only one non-shooting perimeter player serving in a significant rotation role in the conference finals; that's McConnell, who's playing because he's what the Pacers have, and who has provided negative value because the offense has gone substantially downhill when he's been on the floor.

Wrong.

The Pacers have 3 PG's who get regular minutes. Carlisle could very easily sit McConnell if he wanted to and just stagger primary ball-handling duties between Haliburton and Nembhard with a little bit of Sheppard the whole game. But he doesn't, because, contrary to your misguided false assertion, McConnell adds value while he's on the floor.

.

[jars]

With the Celtics about to have a $500million tax bill they are going to trade someone to get under the 2nd apron. I doubt they trade Jaylen Brown, but would you do some sort of combination including Ausar for him?

[Crymson]

Wrong.

The Pacers have 3 PG's who get regular minutes. Carlisle could very easily sit McConnell if he wanted to and just stagger primary ball-handling duties between Haliburton and Nembhard with a little bit of Sheppard the whole game. But he doesn't, because, contrary to your misguided false assertion, McConnell adds value while he's on the floor.

Wrong.

Using Nembhard as backup PG would require awkwardly staggering him with Haliburton despite the two being first and second on the team, respectively, in postseason minutes so far. Contrary to your misguided false assertion, Sheppard -- whose career best in assists in the NCAA was 2.9 in upwards of 34 MPG -- is not a point guard and never has been. McConnell isn't having a great postseason, and his inability to shoot is far from ideal, but he's the best option they've got at the moment.

In any case, way to be misguidedly snide while absolutely missing the forest for the trees: McConnell literally the only perimeter non-shooter seeing minutes on the conference finals, he's a backup PG who's averaging 16 MPG, and even then, he has assets on offense that Ausar absolutely lacks. I don't know what point you're trying to make, but you're doing it badly.

[Kalamazoo317]

Cooper Flag
Jokic
Booker
Harden
Kawhi

No way we get Cooper or Jokic for that package.

Booker maybe?

Harden probably, but terrible direction for us. I doubt Kawhi but honestly terrible direction for us if we did.

[Kalamazoo317]

With the Celtics about to have a $500million tax bill they are going to trade someone to get under the 2nd apron. I doubt they trade Jaylen Brown, but would you do some sort of combination including Ausar for him?

Probably not. I think Brown's cap hit would make things really tough and I'm not convinced he's enough of a "finishing piece" to do it. But I could see it being worth consideration depending on what the rest of the trade looked like.

A big part is you probably can't make it work financially without Tobias included and I'm not sure we're ready to "win now" without Tobias or a reasonable replacement at the four. If we sent out Ausar and Tobias and got Brown in, the 4 is basically toast.

[flow]

Wrong.

The Pacers have 3 PG's who get regular minutes. Carlisle could very easily sit McConnell if he wanted to and just stagger primary ball-handling duties between Haliburton and Nembhard with a little bit of Sheppard the whole game. But he doesn't, because, contrary to your misguided false assertion, McConnell adds value while he's on the floor.

Wrong.

Using Nembhard as backup PG would require awkwardly staggering him with Haliburton despite the two being first and second on the team, respectively, in postseason minutes so far. Contrary to your misguided false assertion, Sheppard -- whose career best in assists in the NCAA was 2.9 in upwards of 34 MPG -- is not a point guard and never has been. McConnell isn't having a great postseason, and his inability to shoot is far from ideal, but he's the best option they've got at the moment.

In any case, way to be misguidedly snide while absolutely missing the forest for the trees: McConnell literally the only perimeter non-shooter seeing minutes on the conference finals, he's a backup PG who's averaging 16 MPG, and even then, he has assets on offense that Ausar absolutely lacks. I don't know what point you're trying to make, but you're doing it badly.

My point was made clearly. It has nothing to do with Ausar. You stated, plainly, that McConnell provides negative value when he's on the floor. That's just completely false. I'm not surprised you think it's true, with your shooting obsession, but you're wrong. Just like you were wrong when you were asserting incessantly at the beginning of the season that teams need to have 4 shooters on the floor in order to win games in today's nba. And that Duren & Ausar on the floor together would be disastrous. And that running an offense heavily involved with movement and cutting to the basket no longer exists and can't succeed. 44 wins and a 6th seed later, I've yet to see any crow-eating, but maybe I missed it.

.