PF targets

[Crymson]

Honestly, Crymson, you get so lost in lecture mode that you forget or ignore what you’ve just responded to. You make good points, no doubt, but ease up a little.

For example: In the above post you just responded to, you try to make a point of emphasis that “The issue is can’t, not won’t”, when referring to his lack of driving ability. Now look one quote above — I’d just said “He can’t drive and finish and doesn’t even try as a result.” That’s frustrating to have someone lecture you on something you’ve just said. I understand you went about it a slightly different way, directly talking about his lack of burst, which is true. He dribbles around, probing for a jumper. That’s his scouting report.

That's my bad -- I was a bit woozy this morning from poor sleep and apparently did a bad job of closely reading your post.

I don't mean to lecture; I just generally have a lot to say.

You also tell me what “breaking down defenses” is in full lecture mode. I know what that is. I also never made a claim that Sasser breaks down defenses, only that he can easily use his handle to break down his own man and get his shot up, which he can. It was in response to your original claim that Sasser has a poor (unsure of your word choice, but that was the gist) handle, which I still disagree with.

Then I misunderstood your meaning, and I'm glad you understand that concept -- the average person I get into a discussion with about Sasser does not.

We can agree he’s nothing special and nothing the team really needs. We gave him a shot, experimented a little, and it was mostly a failure. I hope he gets a shot to stick in the league somewhere else, but I also hope we use his roster spot for something more useful next year.

I'd be cool with him staying as depth, but aye, they can't rely on him in a handling role.

[tmorgan]

Fair enough, fair enough.

[DET_Athletics]

I would be calling up Milwaukee, Gannis isnt staying, it's a matter when not if. My target is Bobby Portis, fonteccio +3 2nd round picks. He dropped dirty and has a 25 game suspension which means he probably is going to pick up his player option. He could press Tobias for the starting job and we should be able to see enough of him before the trade deadline to know if we want to pull the trigger. I would still be active at the trade deadline and move Tobias because if he plays well we could loose him for nothing since we don't have his Bird-Rights.

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[Kalamazoo317]

I'm not against it. A trade around the margins to bring in a vet backup is probably about the level of retooling I could see us doing. Though I do wonder if we can take on the extra money from Portis and still resign our other guys properly.

[theBigLip]

Trading Tobias for a possible upgrade is a tough call. He surprisingly has played up to his contract and was solid in the playoffs. I’m happy to have him this coming season even if we brought in a long term solution at PF.

The problem is we don’t have a lot of contracts to use to balance trades - hence Fontecchio shows up in almost every trade proposal.

I think we should use some future firsts along w Fontecchio and get a quality PF. But we would have to target someone on their rookie deal to make the salaries work.

[LaSheed]

Trading Tobias for a possible upgrade is a tough call. He surprisingly has played up to his contract and was solid in the playoffs. I’m happy to have him this coming season even if we brought in a long term solution at PF.

The problem is we don’t have a lot of contracts to use to balance trades - hence Fontecchio shows up in almost every trade proposal.

I think we should use some future firsts along w Fontecchio and get a quality PF. But we would have to target someone on their rookie deal to make the salaries work.

I certainly understand this way of thinking but if we are giving up 1sts for a quality PF on a rookie deal that means we will have Ivey, Duren & said PF to hand hefty extensions to as well.

Not that I have an answer to the solution but everyone always just repeats "well the cap is going up." Just seems a starting 5 of all youngins isn't the way to go especially seeing what adding 3 NBA rotation vets did for us.

[Crymson]

I certainly understand this way of thinking but if we are giving up 1sts for a quality PF on a rookie deal that means we will have Ivey, Duren & said PF to hand hefty extensions to as well.

This assumes that both Ivey and Duren will get hefty extensions. There's no guarantee of that, and the likelihood at this point is against that happening.

Ivey currently has a very limited track record thanks to this season's injury and last season's coaching disaster. Maybe he'll take an affordable extension this summer, maybe not. If the latter, he may or may not justify a big contract next season. We hope he will, but there's no knowing.

Duren is currently not in line for a significant extension of any sort. Defense is the most important duty of a traditional big, and he's still genuinely bad at it after three seasons. I'd be shocked if he's extended this summer at anything outside of a spectacularly affordable rate, and he's certainly not in line for a big contract next summer unless he makes a massive -- and virtually unprecedented -- defensive leap.

[theBigLip]

I certainly understand this way of thinking but if we are giving up 1sts for a quality PF on a rookie deal that means we will have Ivey, Duren & said PF to hand hefty extensions to as well.

This assumes that both Ivey and Duren will get hefty extensions. There's no guarantee of that, and the likelihood at this point is against that happening.

Ivey currently has a very limited track record thanks to this season's injury and last season's coaching disaster. Maybe he'll take an affordable extension this summer, maybe not. If the latter, he may or may not justify a big contract next season. We hope he will, but there's no knowing.

Duren is currently not in line for a significant extension of any sort. Defense is the most important duty of a traditional big, and he's still genuinely bad at it after three seasons. I'd be shocked if he's extended this summer at anything outside of a spectacularly affordable rate, and he's certainly not in line for a big contract next summer unless he makes a massive -- and virtually unprecedented -- defensive leap.

Agree that those extensions shouldn’t be massive. But regardless of what they are, it shouldn’t stop us from getting a good young PF if we can. Say Jabari Smith Jr, for example. If we can get him for Fontecchio and some draft capital, we just do it and worry about all those extensions later. I know not everyone is crazy about JSJ, but he’s young, could get tutored by Tobias for a year (or more), and if we can buy low, that could be a steal. And if not JSJ, then some other young PF that can shoot.

[Crymson]

Agree that those extensions shouldn’t be massive. But regardless of what they are, it shouldn’t stop us from getting a good young PF if we can. Say Jabari Smith Jr, for example. If we can get him for Fontecchio and some draft capital, we just do it and worry about all those extensions later. I know not everyone is crazy about JSJ, but he’s young, could get tutored by Tobias for a year (or more), and if we can buy low, that could be a steal. And if not JSJ, then some other young PF that can shoot.

I think it's entirely possible that Duren won't be on the team two seasons from now. He's just too far away from being a reliable contributor against good opponents at this point.

JSJ falls far short of starter caliber at this stage. He's very, very limited on offense, especially against good defenses. All the same, I'd be surprised if the Rockets sell low rather than just waiting to see if he can get it together next season.

[theBigLip]

Agree that those extensions shouldn’t be massive. But regardless of what they are, it shouldn’t stop us from getting a good young PF if we can. Say Jabari Smith Jr, for example. If we can get him for Fontecchio and some draft capital, we just do it and worry about all those extensions later. I know not everyone is crazy about JSJ, but he’s young, could get tutored by Tobias for a year (or more), and if we can buy low, that could be a steal. And if not JSJ, then some other young PF that can shoot.

I think it's entirely possible that Duren won't be on the team two seasons from now. He's just too far away from being a reliable contributor against good opponents at this point.

JSJ falls far short of starter caliber at this stage. He's very, very limited on offense, especially against good defenses. All the same, I'd be surprised if the Rockets sell low rather than just waiting to see if he can get it together next season.

Agree that both Duren and JSJ have to work on their games, but they are 21 and 22 years old. NBA players peak in the mid-late 20s, so I wouldn’t say their story is already written.

[SuperBad]

Yea we have 5 lottery picks under 24, and people are ready to say these guys are done and we need to move on on, we have a least one more season to evaluate these guys, I think really two trade deadlines until it becomes even a worry unless there’s an extreme drop off.

[theBigLip]

Yea we have 5 lottery picks under 24, and people are ready to say these guys are done and we need to move on on, we have a least one more season to evaluate these guys, I think really two trade deadlines until it becomes even a worry unless there’s an extreme drop off.

Agreed. And at least rookie deals are relatively cheap so we’re better off keeping them. I’d rather err on keeping them too long than trading them away too early.

Also, spending money on a “sure thing” free agent is far from that.

[Crymson]

Agree that both Duren and JSJ have to work on their games, but they are 21 and 22 years old. NBA players peak in the mid-late 20s, so I wouldn’t say their story is already written.

I agree about Jabari; I think he stands a fair shot of rediscovering the shooting skill he manifested in the NCAA.

Not so much about Duren. Basketball IQ doesn't tend to shift all that much. Players grow as they learn, but that only goes so far. Duren's defensive IQ after three seasons is still remarkably poor, and I can't think of a player who's made the sort of leap in that area that he would need to. The fact that his lateral mobility also seems to be so cooked that he can't switch anymore is another issue, and a big one.

[theBigLip]

Glad we can agree on Jabari. He certainly has some shooting skills.

As for Duren’s D, he’s athletic enough. He just needs to keep getting more experience and working on it. He’s probably still younger than some players that will get picked in the draft this year. I’m optimistic.

[LaSheed]

Guys stop. We are not in the Weaver reclamation phase. Smith is exactly that no matter how much we need a PF of the future. Do not cover your eyes for something that could be

[BadMofoPimp]

I may be in the minority in trading Ivey for a really good Forward to pair/split time with Tobias. It was evident that the team didn't miss a beat with him out if not played better. Then, resign Bease and Schroder. Offer THJ near the vet minimum up to $5 mil and let him walk if he wants more.

[theBigLip]

Guys stop. We are not in the Weaver reclamation phase. Smith is exactly that no matter how much we need a PF of the future. Do not cover your eyes for something that could be

Every acquisition is going to have some risk. And the less risk, the more expensive it will be. Of course Giannis would be better than Smith. But are you willing to move all of our draft assets and a couple of young players for him?

So taking a swing at non-perfect young players (like Smith) and hoping they improve is a low cost way of trying to get our PF of the future. It’s not the only way. What would you do this summer if you’re Langdon and what specifically would you give up?

[Crymson]

Glad we can agree on Jabari. He certainly has some shooting skills.

Oh, certainly. He wouldn't be the first strong college shooter to fall off in the NBA, but he'd be one of the best in recent memory to do so. It's been very weird so far.

As for Duren’s D, he’s athletic enough. He just needs to keep getting more experience and working on it. He’s probably still younger than some players that will get picked in the draft this year. I’m optimistic.

Duren's athleticism is less than it once was on defense. He used to be passable in terms of his lateral movement, and therefore decent enough on switches (if still better suited to drop). His lateral movement is now awful, as a result of which JB hardcore protected him in drop all season. If that's permanent, it's a huge reduction in the defensive value he can provide.

The defensive processing is a different story. If a player simply needs seasoning by learning, then NBA experience is the key to that. Duren is still extremely dense after three NBA seasons. The fact that he's only 21.5 is less relevant than the fact that he's been in the league for a substantial period now and is still chronically slow at making the proper reads and reactions. And as a traditional big, he needs to be a genuinely plus defender (preferably an actually good defender) in order to provide value. The gulf between that and where he is now is gigantic, and I can't think of a player who's bridged it.

[the_l_train]

I may be in the minority in trading Ivey for a really good Forward to pair/split time with Tobias. It was evident that the team didn't miss a beat with him out if not played better. Then, resign Bease and Schroder. Offer THJ near the vet minimum up to $5 mil and let him walk if he wants more.

Super curious what Iveys value is to other teams right now.

Came up with a few names that I think are in a similar tier as Ivey....and I feel like I am a bigger Ivey fan than most Pistons fans, but here would a few names that at least work in the trade machine for a straight up 1 for 1 deal:

Tari Eason - Rockets have too much depth at this point, and cannot pay everybody. His availability scares me as well. Ivey is a great Jalen Green replacement if he is part of another deal.

Shaedon Sharpe - I don't think Billups is the biggest fan of him, but crazy upside

Keegan Murray - Great floor spacer for Cade, just seems like he is soft

Bilal Coulibaly - Swiss army knife, maybe a little too similar to Ausar/Holland though

GG Jackson (+ Konchar to make the money work) - 20 years old, he is a bucket and could be odd man out if Grizz bring back Aldama

Ben Mathurin - Would hate to see Ivey in a Pacers uni, and Mathurin is annoying but similar tier


I could be totally off-base on this tier, and again, I do like Ivey more than most of these guys, but these seem to be somewhat reasonable guys to go after if we had a gun to our head.

[theBigLip]

Glad we can agree on Jabari. He certainly has some shooting skills.

Oh, certainly. He wouldn't be the first strong college shooter to fall off in the NBA, but he'd be one of the best in recent memory to do so. It's been very weird so far.

As for Duren’s D, he’s athletic enough. He just needs to keep getting more experience and working on it. He’s probably still younger than some players that will get picked in the draft this year. I’m optimistic.

Duren's athleticism is less than it once was on defense. He used to be passable in terms of his lateral movement, and therefore decent enough on switches (if still better suited to drop). His lateral movement is now awful, as a result of which JB hardcore protected him in drop all season. If that's permanent, it's a huge reduction in the defensive value he can provide.

The defensive processing is a different story. If a player simply needs seasoning by learning, then NBA experience is the key to that. Duren is still extremely dense after three NBA seasons. The fact that he's only 21.5 is less relevant than the fact that he's been in the league for a substantial period now and is still chronically slow at making the proper reads and reactions. And as a traditional big, he needs to be a genuinely plus defender (preferably an actually good defender) in order to provide value. The gulf between that and where he is now is gigantic, and I can't think of a player who's bridged it.

From my friend ChatGPT (w examples):

Yes, NBA players can and often do improve on defense over the course of their careers. Defensive improvement can come in several forms and through various factors:

1. Experience and Basketball IQ
• As players age, they tend to develop a better understanding of defensive schemes, rotations, and opponents’ tendencies.
• Veterans often become better team defenders, even if they lose some physical ability.

Example:
LeBron James became a much more cerebral defender in his later years, relying on positioning and anticipation rather than athleticism alone.

⸻

2. Coaching and Systems
• Good defensive coaches can make a big impact by teaching proper technique, positioning, and effort.
• Some players thrive defensively in certain systems or under specific coaches.

Example:
Andrew Wiggins significantly improved his defense under Steve Kerr with the Warriors, largely due to team culture and system.

⸻

3. Physical Development
• Young players often improve defensively as they gain strength and conditioning.
• Improving lateral quickness, stamina, and strength helps them guard multiple positions.

Example:
Jayson Tatum entered the league as an offensive talent but became a strong two-way player by bulking up and committing to defense.

⸻

4. Role and Accountability
• Some players are asked to focus more on defense as their role changes (e.g., fewer offensive responsibilities).
• Playing on a contending team often demands defensive effort and accountability.

Example:
James Harden improved his defensive reputation when he played with the Nets and 76ers, partly due to higher team stakes.

⸻

5. Effort and Mindset
• Defense is partly effort-based. Players who buy into team goals or are challenged by coaches can show dramatic defensive improvement.

Example:
DeMar DeRozan was not known for defense early in his career, but his effort on that end improved with time, especially when he played under Popovich in San Antonio.