Moderators: Cowology, theBigLip, Snakebites, dVs33
Cowology wrote:Drummond is fantastic as your 3rd/4th starter making about 1/3 of his current salary.
Neptune wrote:Folks don't understand that Dre needs guards to be great. The Piston don't have any good ones outside of Rose.
El Chivo wrote:the current management is not responsible for the mess inherited.
subbed sub wrote:Neptune wrote:Folks don't understand that Dre needs guards to be great. The Piston don't have any good ones outside of Rose.
He wouldn`t be $28m great
Neptune wrote:subbed sub wrote:Neptune wrote:Folks don't understand that Dre needs guards to be great. The Piston don't have any good ones outside of Rose.
He wouldn`t be $28m great
If we trade Blake and Reggie/attach Kennard and picks we could use that money to acquire two good guards. Then send my guy Rose to the Lakers for Kuzma.
You use that 28 million to hold on to that 18pts and 17reb player and get him some help! Like yesterday!
Acquired Player
Acquired Player
Kuzma
Sekeu
Drummond
It's really simple Ed!
DetroitSho wrote:If you would've actually read my post there's no way you come away saying I think anybody advocating for trading Dre is hating on Dre. Since I literally.......ummm............advocated for trading him multiple times in my post. What part did you miss? Just curious.Invictus88 wrote:DetroitSho wrote:Against my better judgment I'm going to chime in on the this. And I say against my better judgment because I'm in the minority around here about Drummond. But fugg it, I'm off work. I got time today.
Let me preface this by saying yes Andre Drummond needs to be traded. If for no other reason than y'all finally letting the dead horse of "Drummond sucks" actually die ffs. I'm going to attempt to convey what DetroitPistons (I think it was him) was trying to say but went just a little too far.
Can somebody please tell me how Drummond has reached Josh Smiff levels of hate at this point? If you feel that he needs to be traded because it would start the rebuild and finally open the way to the next chapter, then ok. I can go with that. But if you want to trade Dre because he sucks, you're an idiot.
Dre doesn't suck. His biggest sin is he's not good enough to be a superstar, period, point blank. That's not ONLY a Dre problem, it's a Piston fans problem too because our expectations of what we think/thought he could be were not met. But it goes deeper than that. There's currently one player on this whole roster that has the potential to be better than Dre's best. So if Dre sucks, what does that say for the team he's had around him his whole career? It was said in another thread (maybe even earlier in this thread) that Dre playing at his best every night would make us a 50+ win team yearly. That. Just. Ain't. True.
By all accounts Dre has never been a dikkk to his teammates or the fans. Hasn't talked down on the city, does a good amount of charity and community service work. He's never gotten in trouble here. Is there really a reason to root for his demise like Josh Smiff who literally destroyed this team every minute he was on the court. With Dre you can at least say man if he does abc, and stays away from doing xyz on the court then he would be a huge asset to us. With Smiff, literally the only way he could help us on the court is being OFF of it.
He's not a superstar, but he's still a really good player if PLACED AROUND OTHER ABOVE AVERAGE TALENT. His whole career he's been on a roster with at most only 2 other above average players at a time. He's not good enough to be the best player on a title team. He's not good enough to drag 12 below average players to the playoffs. Neither is Bradley Beal but this board has a woody at the prospect of getting him for some reason. Nobody questions why he's not dragging bums to the playoffs.
So yes, trade Dre if we get a good offer because at this point we need to switch it up. I tend to believe having more than half of your salary cap (in Blake, Jackson and Smiff) giving you absolutely ZERO is a bigger detriment to this team than Dre. Just imagine if this team had $60 million in cap space this summer and how quickly they could turn things around. So I said all that to say if you somehow take joy in the fact that Dre might not get a max contract or that teams may not want to give up alot assets for his potential rental, you're weird bro. Seriously weird. That's where it's getting to the Josh Smiff levels where it's no acknowledgement for anything positive on Dre's end but any mistake he makes he's damned to hell or anything that may be a negative on his behalf is celebrated.
I can't wait until we finally trade him and then give Wood that 3 year $30 million deal so I can see the evolution of the new whipping boy, starting in year 2 of the deal *cough* Aron Baynes *cough*.
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So I think the problem here is that the sentiment of:
"We should trade Drummond because he might opt out and we could end up getting nothing at all for him"
was erroneously translated internally by some as hating on him.
The opinion of trade vs. no trade has a lot of factors going into it; whether you think his play improves the team is only one of them. There's also whether he is willing to sign at a price that you feel his contributions are worth. There's also fit. There's also the opportunity cost lost in other positions if you devote money to the 5 spot. And finally -- and most importantly -- in this particular case is whether you think he will reach free agency. Because in that case you have to weigh in the risk that you will get absolutely nothing in return.
So given all of these factors I think it's perfectly reasonable to recommend trading him even if you feel positively about him in other areas. In other words, it's a mistake to translate "We should think about trading Dre" as hating on him. One does not directly equate to the other. I think this was part of the problem that DetroitPistons just couldn't get past.
The other part of the discussion and the big point that I and Snake took issue with is his claim that opinions on this message board questioning Dre's value factored into the Detroit Pistons organization decision-making process of whether to make a trade. That claim is completely nonsensical. Again. He just couldn't get past it.
Finally, there was the pattern of him saying "X is because of Y", you replying "I don't agree with X being because of Y", and then him replying "I never said X was because of Y. Stop strawmanning me". It's really hard to have a productive discussion with someone if they are going to clearly state things in one post and then completely deny saying them in the next.
Snakebites: Feel free to correct me on this if I am mistaken. I don't want to put words in your mouth here.
So the TLDR here is: I'm not even going to respond to whether or not the Dre hate is warranted DetroitSho. I know you wrote 5 paragraphs about it but in the context of the prior discussion it's largely immaterial.
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WTF? You quoted my post. And you mentioned in it several times that the acknowledgement that Dre needs to be traded is being seen as hate. Yeah no way I should assume you were talking about my post.Invictus88 wrote:DetroitSho wrote:If you would've actually read my post there's no way you come away saying I think anybody advocating for trading Dre is hating on Dre. Since I literally.......ummm............advocated for trading him multiple times in my post. What part did you miss? Just curious.Invictus88 wrote:
So I think the problem here is that the sentiment of:
"We should trade Drummond because he might opt out and we could end up getting nothing at all for him"
was erroneously translated internally by some as hating on him.
The opinion of trade vs. no trade has a lot of factors going into it; whether you think his play improves the team is only one of them. There's also whether he is willing to sign at a price that you feel his contributions are worth. There's also fit. There's also the opportunity cost lost in other positions if you devote money to the 5 spot. And finally -- and most importantly -- in this particular case is whether you think he will reach free agency. Because in that case you have to weigh in the risk that you will get absolutely nothing in return.
So given all of these factors I think it's perfectly reasonable to recommend trading him even if you feel positively about him in other areas. In other words, it's a mistake to translate "We should think about trading Dre" as hating on him. One does not directly equate to the other. I think this was part of the problem that DetroitPistons just couldn't get past.
The other part of the discussion and the big point that I and Snake took issue with is his claim that opinions on this message board questioning Dre's value factored into the Detroit Pistons organization decision-making process of whether to make a trade. That claim is completely nonsensical. Again. He just couldn't get past it.
Finally, there was the pattern of him saying "X is because of Y", you replying "I don't agree with X being because of Y", and then him replying "I never said X was because of Y. Stop strawmanning me". It's really hard to have a productive discussion with someone if they are going to clearly state things in one post and then completely deny saying them in the next.
Snakebites: Feel free to correct me on this if I am mistaken. I don't want to put words in your mouth here.
So the TLDR here is: I'm not even going to respond to whether or not the Dre hate is warranted DetroitSho. I know you wrote 5 paragraphs about it but in the context of the prior discussion it's largely immaterial.
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I wasn't talking about you; unless you are an alt for DetroitPistons.
The constant cognitive dissonance is pretty strong here. Just because YOU haven't placed hate towards Dre doesn't mean there hasn't been any. It's almost like you're making this a personal thing. Read the mf'n thread ffs. Enough with the "eh I'm not seeing this hate you're talking about". That's disingenuous.Snakebites wrote:There was never a long term vision for this team.
It was always just “who can we add that might give us a few more wins this season”.
It’s tough to talk about management since that’s exchanged hands multiple times. Dumars and Van Gundy both signed the wrong players to big contracts again and again. Ill advised trades and picks were made. SVG in particular made moves that showed an utter disregard for long term salary structure. He overspent in bad players to fill out his bench rotation.
Maybe Dre was miscast as our star player. Maybe that’s not his fault. But if he’s going to want to seek star money, he’ll hopefully need to do that elsewhere, because a star he’s not.
We’re rebuilding now. At least I hope to all things good and holy that we are. And I don’t think Dre fits that, not anymore. I think moving on is the best thing for all parties concerned.
I haven’t seen any actual Drummond “hate” anywhere. So I still don’t know who the folks who are complaining about that are addressing. That’s why I tend to think those comments are directed at those who think as I do.
Literally all I try to convey. Drummond's faults are his own. Trade the guy if it puts us in a better position. But geez, he's not the reason this franchise is where it is. Probably not even in the top 5. I don't care what ANYBODY says.DBC10 wrote:Folks also forget that we accelerated the rebuild with Drummond and some pieces by adding Jennings and Smith. Smith taking up all that cap at the time demolishing chemistry and Jennings breaking down after 1.5 years and another 1.5 of RJ is what changed the trajectory of this team. We simply rushed the timeline and Drummond and other picks were likely casualties for how they turned out with us. Had we just stayed course and quietly rebuilt without trying to have this playoffs or bust mentality, I think the team would look noticeably different. I have to commend our luck and SVG though for 2015 when we looked like we were on the verge of having a decent squad at most positions especially those trades. But that all went to hell too.
So I don’t blame Drummond as MUCH as I do with the ownership. It always starts with the top with these basketball franchises.
rmfc wrote:El Chivo wrote:salty Drummond fans don't understand that we are "hating" Drummond the supposed >20 million dollars per year player, not Drummond the player at all.
we "hate" Drummond the player who thinks himself as a star, as a ball handler, as an offensive threat.
we "hate" Drummond's lack of awareness of his limits and his qualities, not him.
and we hated that Detroit tried to build around Drummond for years.
Detroit tried to build around Drummond?
What? Trading for Reggie Jackson was that move?
This current management is horrible. It's probably one of the worst in the league. They didn't try to build around anyone. May be SVG tried for a season or so but he also made god-awful decisions in the draft. Had we gotten those 2 perimeter players in the draft and not overpaid dime-a-dozen FA talents, this team would have been much better shape.
Your second to last sentence is untrue. Dre's not passing any better than he has the last couple years. The season we traded for Blake, if I recall right Dre was averaging 3-4 APG and doing a good job of helping initiate the offense. It's just been that ever since Blake has been around that's been marginalized.flow wrote:rmfc wrote:El Chivo wrote:salty Drummond fans don't understand that we are "hating" Drummond the supposed >20 million dollars per year player, not Drummond the player at all.
we "hate" Drummond the player who thinks himself as a star, as a ball handler, as an offensive threat.
we "hate" Drummond's lack of awareness of his limits and his qualities, not him.
and we hated that Detroit tried to build around Drummond for years.
Detroit tried to build around Drummond?
What? Trading for Reggie Jackson was that move?
This current management is horrible. It's probably one of the worst in the league. They didn't try to build around anyone. May be SVG tried for a season or so but he also made god-awful decisions in the draft. Had we gotten those 2 perimeter players in the draft and not overpaid dime-a-dozen FA talents, this team would have been much better shape.
First of all, hindsight is 20/20 and allows people to change their own minds/narratives over the years. In 2015/2016, 90% of this board thought trading for RJ was the greatest thing the Pistons had done since getting Rasheed Wallace. SVG was lauded as the 2nd coming. This was the star PG to go along with their Star Center, and would constitute the foundation for great success. The two cornerstones were in place. Bla bla bla. And in theory, the pairing of a great center with a great pg should be, and usually is, the foundation for success. But when neither are actually great, that's a different story. That's when your team is doomed.
Regarding your last sentence, I agree in theory. (especially the second point). In reality, though, you still would have needed RJ and Drummond to learn how to play within an offense and pass the ball to those perimeter players. I'll give Dre this, he's passing better this year, and his floor awareness has improved somewhat. But back during the time you're talking about, forget it.
DetroitSho wrote:The constant cognitive dissonance is pretty strong here. Just because YOU haven't placed hate towards Dre doesn't mean there hasn't been any. It's almost like you're making this a personal thing. Read the mf'n thread ffs. Enough with the "eh I'm not seeing this hate you're talking about". That's disingenuous.Snakebites wrote:There was never a long term vision for this team.
It was always just “who can we add that might give us a few more wins this season”.
It’s tough to talk about management since that’s exchanged hands multiple times. Dumars and Van Gundy both signed the wrong players to big contracts again and again. Ill advised trades and picks were made. SVG in particular made moves that showed an utter disregard for long term salary structure. He overspent in bad players to fill out his bench rotation.
Maybe Dre was miscast as our star player. Maybe that’s not his fault. But if he’s going to want to seek star money, he’ll hopefully need to do that elsewhere, because a star he’s not.
We’re rebuilding now. At least I hope to all things good and holy that we are. And I don’t think Dre fits that, not anymore. I think moving on is the best thing for all parties concerned.
I haven’t seen any actual Drummond “hate” anywhere. So I still don’t know who the folks who are complaining about that are addressing. That’s why I tend to think those comments are directed at those who think as I do.
Unless you think constantly calling him a bum and saying he sucks is great team spirit. Then that would just be weird.
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Nah fam, I'll save myself the rinse....repeat. Your mind is made up.Snakebites wrote:DetroitSho wrote:The constant cognitive dissonance is pretty strong here. Just because YOU haven't placed hate towards Dre doesn't mean there hasn't been any. It's almost like you're making this a personal thing. Read the mf'n thread ffs. Enough with the "eh I'm not seeing this hate you're talking about". That's disingenuous.Snakebites wrote:There was never a long term vision for this team.
It was always just “who can we add that might give us a few more wins this season”.
It’s tough to talk about management since that’s exchanged hands multiple times. Dumars and Van Gundy both signed the wrong players to big contracts again and again. Ill advised trades and picks were made. SVG in particular made moves that showed an utter disregard for long term salary structure. He overspent in bad players to fill out his bench rotation.
Maybe Dre was miscast as our star player. Maybe that’s not his fault. But if he’s going to want to seek star money, he’ll hopefully need to do that elsewhere, because a star he’s not.
We’re rebuilding now. At least I hope to all things good and holy that we are. And I don’t think Dre fits that, not anymore. I think moving on is the best thing for all parties concerned.
I haven’t seen any actual Drummond “hate” anywhere. So I still don’t know who the folks who are complaining about that are addressing. That’s why I tend to think those comments are directed at those who think as I do.
Unless you think constantly calling him a bum and saying he sucks is great team spirit. Then that would just be weird.
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Please. Point out what you consider hate.
I haven’t seen it.
flow wrote:In 2015/2016, 90% of this board thought trading for RJ was the greatest thing the Pistons had done since getting Rasheed Wallace. SVG was lauded as the 2nd coming. This was the star PG to go along with their Star Center, and would constitute the foundation for great success. The two cornerstones were in place. Bla bla bla. And in theory, the pairing of a great center with a great pg should be, and usually is, the foundation for success.
Snakebites wrote:Please. Point out what you consider hate.
I haven’t seen it.