Run it Back or Upgrade?

[tmorgan]

Butterfly effect and all that, but if nothing else changed and we had Green instead of Cade right now, things would be very sad around here.

[Snakebites]

Butterfly effect and all that, but if nothing else changed and we had Green instead of Cade right now, things would be very sad around here.

Do we even know he was number two on our list? Mobley would have been interesting.

I'll openly admit I wasn't particularly excited about Mobley (and have egg on my face now given the season he just had).

[the_l_train]

Butterfly effect and all that, but if nothing else changed and we had Green instead of Cade right now, things would be very sad around here.

Do we even know he was number two on our list? Mobley would have been interesting.

I'll openly admit I wasn't particularly excited about Mobley (and have egg on my face now given the season he just had).

Rumor was we worked out Jalen Green at the last minute, like we were second guessing the Cade pick…cannot remember if we worked out Mobley.

[VicVinegar]

The knee jerk reaction after a first round loss is "we need an upgrade". But with how these playoffs have shook out - Knicks beating Celtics, Timberwolves in conference finals, Pacers in Finals, do we really think the Pistons are a tier below those teams as is? I think the only team with a better future on paper than the Pistons is OKC and maybe the Spurs because of their lottery luck, but I'll leave them out since they didn't even make playoffs. I don't think there's any need for a big move right now, but let's see where things are at around trade deadline time.

[Snakebites]

The knee jerk reaction after a first round loss is "we need an upgrade". But with how these playoffs have shook out - Knicks beating Celtics, Timberwolves in conference finals, Pacers in Finals, do we really think the Pistons are a tier below those teams as is? I think the only team with a better future on paper than the Pistons is OKC and maybe the Spurs because of their lottery luck, but I'll leave them out since they didn't even make playoffs. I don't think there's any need for a big move right now, but let's see where things are at around trade deadline time.

I don't think we're desperate. But I also think we don't have a single player on our roster who's particularly good on both ends of the floor.

The core isn't complete, and regardless of what happened in the playoffs we aren't good enough as is to make deep playoff run.

There isn't necessarily anything wrong with being patient and seeing how we improve internally, to see the true value of the pieces we have, but I also don't think anyone should be so attached to the status quo that moves aren't considered- at some point this roster is going to need to be upgraded, be it this offseason, the trade deadline, or next year.

[MotownMadness]

The knee jerk reaction after a first round loss is "we need an upgrade". But with how these playoffs have shook out - Knicks beating Celtics, Timberwolves in conference finals, Pacers in Finals, do we really think the Pistons are a tier below those teams as is? I think the only team with a better future on paper than the Pistons is OKC and maybe the Spurs because of their lottery luck, but I'll leave them out since they didn't even make playoffs. I don't think there's any need for a big move right now, but let's see where things are at around trade deadline time.

Maybe not a move right now but Pistons absolutely need to get a 2nd option. Might as well see how the young guys come back and go fishing next trade deadline.

[Canadafan]

Cade making all-nba sorta messed up our cap space that's for sure.
If he hadn't, we would have enough to sign Beasley, Schröder with RoomException and make a Fontecchio+draft picks trade for a PF to share time with Tobias. No THjr or Reed unless they accepted vet minimum.
Instead we're left with keeping our guys, including THJr, and having the $5.1mil option to find that backup.
Not horrible.
Trade deadline is where we might do something.
We'll be nice and deep this year.
Run it back. Make our draft choice. Use the $5.1 on Reed or another guy. Thats 15 players

Duren Stew
Tobias Fontecchio
Ausar Holland
Ivey Beasley
Cade Shröder
$5.1 2nd rd pick THJr Sasser Klintman

[Kilo]

Upgrade will come from a big trade and we are a half season to a year away from being able to do that as Thompson and Ivey need to prove health over next season and Holland needs to make rookie to Year 2 leap in development. Along with Duren those three players will be the trade chips along with Harris's expiring at the TDL.

Re Beasley - I bring him back at a fair contract. I am wary his all-in professed love of Detroit is a leverage tactic in negotiations and will try to get an overpay out of it to stay here. If he truly want to be here I would be willing to consider matching a FA offer if he would give Detroit that consideration. But I think he is a mid level max salary player. I love his shooting and bit of swagger he brings but is he playable in the playoffs with his lack of defense and when teams play higher energy defense and he can't get his shot off as readily and cleanly?

[Invictus88]

Cade making all-nba sorta messed up our cap space that's for sure.
If he hadn't, we would have enough to sign Beasley, Schröder with RoomException and make a Fontecchio+draft picks trade for a PF to share time with Tobias. No THjr or Reed unless they accepted vet minimum.
Instead we're left with keeping our guys, including THJr, and having the $5.1mil option to find that backup.
Not horrible.
Trade deadline is where we might do something.
We'll be nice and deep this year.
Run it back. Make our draft choice. Use the $5.1 on Reed or another guy. Thats 15 players

Duren Stew
Tobias Fontecchio
Ausar Holland
Ivey Beasley
Cade Shröder
$5.1 2nd rd pick THJr Sasser Klintman

Honestly I value the clarity and direction Cade making the all-nba team provides. You had people making really stupid statements about how we extended him too early at the beginning of the season. Now it's undeniable. He's the leader and future of our club. Let's build on that.

I don't see how we are left needing to keep THJ. He's a free agent. There's nothing saying we need to resign him; especially given that Ivey will be back (he shot 41% from 3 on 5-ish attempts last year) and we likely want to give Holland more minutes to develop too.

[the_l_train]

Cade making all-nba sorta messed up our cap space that's for sure.
If he hadn't, we would have enough to sign Beasley, Schröder with RoomException and make a Fontecchio+draft picks trade for a PF to share time with Tobias. No THjr or Reed unless they accepted vet minimum.
Instead we're left with keeping our guys, including THJr, and having the $5.1mil option to find that backup.
Not horrible.
Trade deadline is where we might do something.
We'll be nice and deep this year.
Run it back. Make our draft choice. Use the $5.1 on Reed or another guy. Thats 15 players

Duren Stew
Tobias Fontecchio
Ausar Holland
Ivey Beasley
Cade Shröder
$5.1 2nd rd pick THJr Sasser Klintman

Honestly I value the clarity and direction Cade making the all-nba team provides. You had people making really stupid statements about how we extended him too early at the beginning of the season. Now it's undeniable. He's the leader and future of our club. Let's build on that.

I don't see how we are left needing to keep THJ. He's a free agent. There's nothing saying we need to resign him; especially given that Ivey will be back (he shot 41% from 3 on 5-ish attempts last year) and we likely want to give Holland more minutes to develop too.

I know everyone has soured on THJ, but he earned the courtesy of at least a veterans minimum.

Yeah we could let him go, but Cade and him were pretty tight…and as bad as he was on defense sometimes, he was in the top 5 for charges drawn. Having him as your 8th-9th guy is not the worst thing.

The only fear with bringing him back is that JB continues to start him and he becomes the new Michael Curry/Kyle Singler (guy who sticks in the starting lineup for no reason).

[Canadafan]

I'm ok with taking care of our guys. I think it's a good look for our franchise. Maybe giving them a little more than they could on the open market. Bird rights help us do that with Tim and Dennis. We are the lowest payroll in the league and not like we can do much else with our money. Hopefully we let Beasley see what he can get elsewhere and it's not too much so we can conserve some cap space to make a trade. And signing the other guys gives us some good trading chips at the deadline.

[Snakebites]

Cade making all-nba sorta messed up our cap space that's for sure.
If he hadn't, we would have enough to sign Beasley, Schröder with RoomException and make a Fontecchio+draft picks trade for a PF to share time with Tobias. No THjr or Reed unless they accepted vet minimum.
Instead we're left with keeping our guys, including THJr, and having the $5.1mil option to find that backup.
Not horrible.
Trade deadline is where we might do something.
We'll be nice and deep this year.
Run it back. Make our draft choice. Use the $5.1 on Reed or another guy. Thats 15 players

Duren Stew
Tobias Fontecchio
Ausar Holland
Ivey Beasley
Cade Shröder
$5.1 2nd rd pick THJr Sasser Klintman

Honestly I value the clarity and direction Cade making the all-nba team provides. You had people making really stupid statements about how we extended him too early at the beginning of the season. Now it's undeniable. He's the leader and future of our club. Let's build on that.

I don't see how we are left needing to keep THJ. He's a free agent. There's nothing saying we need to resign him; especially given that Ivey will be back (he shot 41% from 3 on 5-ish attempts last year) and we likely want to give Holland more minutes to develop too.

I know everyone has soured on THJ, but he earned the courtesy of at least a veterans minimum.

Yeah we could let him go, but Cade and him were pretty tight…and as bad as he was on defense sometimes, he was in the top 5 for charges drawn. Having him as your 8th-9th guy is not the worst thing.

The only fear with bringing him back is that JB continues to start him and he becomes the new Michael Curry/Kyle Singler (guy who sticks in the starting lineup for no reason).

I imagine they'll sit down with him and lay out what his role and salary will be if he wants to stay. They're not going to jettison him, but Ivey's return does mean that minutes on the perimeter are going to be at a premium. I do think it's likely that Beasley and Schroder are back next year, and if they are it is likely to mean more three guard lineups and fewer minutes available at the 3.

He was a good culture guy and he and Cade are pretty tight, but the truth is that statistically he just wasn't all that special on offense and was flat out bad on defense. A non-defending shooter who's got a 57% TS percentage isn't worth a lot of money.

[SuperBad]

I’m down for keeping Hardaway on the cheap side for sure if we move tech and Sasser. But I would like to see him in Sasser a role, with a chance to earn bigger minutes come playoff time assuming he’s got his legs. The guy is historically been pretty healthy, he would be great 9-11th guy ofc the bench, or find a role 12-18 minutes. I think a guy like him SHOULD in that role play a lot of minutes in 10+ back to backs we play. But that’s not how the coaches seem to go at it.

[Invictus88]

Cade making all-nba sorta messed up our cap space that's for sure.
If he hadn't, we would have enough to sign Beasley, Schröder with RoomException and make a Fontecchio+draft picks trade for a PF to share time with Tobias. No THjr or Reed unless they accepted vet minimum.
Instead we're left with keeping our guys, including THJr, and having the $5.1mil option to find that backup.
Not horrible.
Trade deadline is where we might do something.
We'll be nice and deep this year.
Run it back. Make our draft choice. Use the $5.1 on Reed or another guy. Thats 15 players

Duren Stew
Tobias Fontecchio
Ausar Holland
Ivey Beasley
Cade Shröder
$5.1 2nd rd pick THJr Sasser Klintman

Honestly I value the clarity and direction Cade making the all-nba team provides. You had people making really stupid statements about how we extended him too early at the beginning of the season. Now it's undeniable. He's the leader and future of our club. Let's build on that.

I don't see how we are left needing to keep THJ. He's a free agent. There's nothing saying we need to resign him; especially given that Ivey will be back (he shot 41% from 3 on 5-ish attempts last year) and we likely want to give Holland more minutes to develop too.

I know everyone has soured on THJ, but he earned the courtesy of at least a veterans minimum.

Yeah we could let him go, but Cade and him were pretty tight…and as bad as he was on defense sometimes, he was in the top 5 for charges drawn. Having him as your 8th-9th guy is not the worst thing.

The only fear with bringing him back is that JB continues to start him and he becomes the new Michael Curry/Kyle Singler (guy who sticks in the starting lineup for no reason).

I was never really super high on him to begin with; so I don't know about the souring part. But he did have his moments though.

I was more just questioning the implication that we absolutely have to keep him. More just stating we aren't contractually obligated or anything.

I also think that as we get more and more successful that minutes become more of a premium. And while I like the idea of rewarding guys for loyalty or whatever that it can't come at the expense of what is best for the team. Snake already mentioned it. THJ deserves to have it explained to him what his future (likely reduced) role would be next year. And it would be up to him if he wants to stay. It's far more important for Ivey and Holland to get those minutes.

I think we are mostly aligned here.

[Crymson]

I know everyone has soured on THJ, but he earned the courtesy of at least a veterans minimum.

Yeah we could let him go, but Cade and him were pretty tight…and as bad as he was on defense sometimes, he was in the top 5 for charges drawn. Having him as your 8th-9th guy is not the worst thing.

If Beasley and Schroder are back, he'd 10th man in an almost certain nine-man rotation. I'm cool with having him back at that salary for that role. The question is if he'd be good with playing very few minutes.

I’m down for keeping Hardaway on the cheap side for sure if we move tech and Sasser. But I would like to see him in Sasser a role, with a chance to earn bigger minutes come playoff time assuming he’s got his legs. The guy is historically been pretty healthy, he would be great 9-11th guy ofc the bench, or find a role 12-18 minutes. I think a guy like him SHOULD in that role play a lot of minutes in 10+ back to backs we play. But that’s not how the coaches seem to go at it.

THJ is flawed in the regular season and worse in the playoffs. He was dumped by the Mavericks because he was no longer capable of providing postseason value, and he went on to be unsurprisingly awful for the Pistons against the Knicks. He's already long in the tooth, and he's likely to continue declining.

NBA players don't need guys to spell them in back-to-backs. These are some of the best-conditioned pro athletes in the world. And coaches prefer to keep rotations consistent.

[Canadafan]

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[the_l_train]

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Still can’t believe he got an all defensive team vote.

This is why a lot of people roll their eyes at analytics…make this make sense.

Like the eye test means nothing, apparently he’s a great defender now.

[bstein14]

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Still can’t believe he got an all defensive team vote.

This is why a lot of people roll their eyes at analytics…make this make sense.

Like the eye test means nothing, apparently he’s a great defender now.

For defensive rating "defensive stops" play a big part in the calculation and those include defensive rebounds which Jalen got like 7 per game. Detroit was also one of the best teams in the league in not allowing other teams to get offensive rebounds which also helps the cause for defensive rating.

Defensive ratings usually skew towards bigs who rebound as well as teams who are good defensively overall.

[bstein14]

Also worth noting, Ausar Thompson had a better defensive rating than Duren but he didn't play enough minutes to qualify for that top 10 list. Stewart was also right there next to Duren but Stew didn't do as much defensive rebounding this year I think if Stew and Duren had the same rebounding rates that Stew would also be above Duren.

If you do a minimum of 1200 minutes played instead of 2,000 minutes you get a much different looking list.
1. Hartenstein
7. Wemby
10. Ausar Thompson
11. Anthony Davis
12. Amen Thompson
15. Evan Mobley
21. Jalen Duren

[Mr Peanut]

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Unfortunately it's a very flawed statistic. I've been a bit critical of EPM in the past but it probably is one of the more reliable advanced stats to measure defensive impact.

Duren's defensive EPM this season was -1.2, which is in the 16th percentile (i.e. bad).

On the bright side Ausar was +3.3 (99th percentile and good for third in the entire league) and Stew +0.9 (82nd percentile).