Run it Back or Upgrade?

[the_l_train]

I've read your assertions and logic, and I'll state it again. I'd be willing to bet Duren's next contract (further debilitating injuries aside) is in the 20-25m ballpark.

I'm curious to hear why! And do you figure that'll be his contract number with or without significant improvement on defense?

Because that is the going price. If Naz Reid can command 25+ at age 25, with the clear holes in his game…so can Duren.

Somebody will pay him that, therefore that is what we can expect him to ask for. Whether you think he is deserving or not.

Yes all centers in the league are athletic. Duren is a freak athlete. There is a difference, and that is enticing enough for a team to give him his pay day.

Nic Claxton (age 26) may be a better defender, but I’d guess a majority of teams would take a flyer on Duren over him. Duren is asking for Claxton money.

[DetroitSho]

Brooke Lopez is the ultimate example. I don’t expect Duren to get to that level but he will improve on D. He may have three years experience but he’s still so young, hence my optimism.

My question was about centers who improved from bad to solid, not the occasional guys like Lopez who improve from solid to good. Lopez was never a bad defender, and he was a plus defender with the Nets and the Lakers. He got better later in his career, though it helped a lot that he found himself in an ideal situation in Milwaukee next to arguably the greatest roaming interior help defender ever to play in the NBA and in a defensive scheme/environment that allowed him to primarily play in drop, where he's at his best. He didn't have those luxuries in NJ/Brooklyn or LA.

And also, he’s extremely athletic compared to other post players.

I don't mean to split hairs or repeat myself, but pretty much every traditional big in today's league is athletic, and Duren's bad lateral mobility is a big gap in his athleticism. I'd also argue that though Duren is an excellent run-jump athlete by the standards of his position, he isn't particularly mobile overall in a functional way on defense. Stew, for example, is much less athletic than Duren overall, but has a great deal better functional mobility on defense in almost every way.

Great job in framing the question/situation in a way you'd never be wrong. At the end of the day, Brook Lopez had a rep as a subpar defender/rim protector and laughingly bad rebounder. That's a great example.

JaVale McGee, for all the shots he volley'd into the stands, wasn't really a good defender early on. Pretty clueless. But as he got older and started to mature, he became a reliable interior defender. I haven't seen early career numbers on Gafford, but I remember thinking of him as JaVale 2.0 when he first came on the scene. Thinking back on Tyson Chandler early, who he ended up being for the Mavs (really starting in New Orleans) is not what he started out as in Chicago.

I'll wait for you to find a way to exclude these examples now.

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[theBigLip]

Brooke Lopez is the ultimate example. I don’t expect Duren to get to that level but he will improve on D. He may have three years experience but he’s still so young, hence my optimism.

My question was about centers who improved from bad to solid, not the occasional guys like Lopez who improve from solid to good. Lopez was never a bad defender, and he was a plus defender with the Nets and the Lakers. He got better later in his career, though it helped a lot that he found himself in an ideal situation in Milwaukee next to arguably the greatest roaming interior help defender ever to play in the NBA and in a defensive scheme/environment that allowed him to primarily play in drop, where he's at his best. He didn't have those luxuries in NJ/Brooklyn or LA.

And also, he’s extremely athletic compared to other post players.

I don't mean to split hairs or repeat myself, but pretty much every traditional big in today's league is athletic, and Duren's bad lateral mobility is a big gap in his athleticism. I'd also argue that though Duren is an excellent run-jump athlete by the standards of his position, he isn't particularly mobile overall in a functional way on defense. Stew, for example, is much less athletic than Duren overall, but has a great deal better functional mobility on defense in almost every way.

Great job in framing the question/situation in a way you'd never be wrong. At the end of the day, Brook Lopez had a rep as a subpar defender/rim protector and laughingly bad rebounder. That's a great example.

JaVale McGee, for all the shots he volley'd into the stands, wasn't really a good defender early on. Pretty clueless. But as he got older and started to mature, he became a reliable interior defender. I haven't seen early career numbers on Gafford, but I remember thinking of him as JaVale 2.0 when he first came on the scene. Thinking back on Tyson Chandler early, who he ended up being for the Mavs (really starting in New Orleans) is not what he started out as in Chicago.

I'll wait for you to find a way to exclude these examples now.

Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

Spot on post. Regardless of how it’s framed, Lopez made huge strides and improved as a defender. Duren is more athletic and certainly has that potential.

[DetroitSho]

My question was about centers who improved from bad to solid, not the occasional guys like Lopez who improve from solid to good. Lopez was never a bad defender, and he was a plus defender with the Nets and the Lakers. He got better later in his career, though it helped a lot that he found himself in an ideal situation in Milwaukee next to arguably the greatest roaming interior help defender ever to play in the NBA and in a defensive scheme/environment that allowed him to primarily play in drop, where he's at his best. He didn't have those luxuries in NJ/Brooklyn or LA.



I don't mean to split hairs or repeat myself, but pretty much every traditional big in today's league is athletic, and Duren's bad lateral mobility is a big gap in his athleticism. I'd also argue that though Duren is an excellent run-jump athlete by the standards of his position, he isn't particularly mobile overall in a functional way on defense. Stew, for example, is much less athletic than Duren overall, but has a great deal better functional mobility on defense in almost every way.

Great job in framing the question/situation in a way you'd never be wrong. At the end of the day, Brook Lopez had a rep as a subpar defender/rim protector and laughingly bad rebounder. That's a great example.

JaVale McGee, for all the shots he volley'd into the stands, wasn't really a good defender early on. Pretty clueless. But as he got older and started to mature, he became a reliable interior defender. I haven't seen early career numbers on Gafford, but I remember thinking of him as JaVale 2.0 when he first came on the scene. Thinking back on Tyson Chandler early, who he ended up being for the Mavs (really starting in New Orleans) is not what he started out as in Chicago.

I'll wait for you to find a way to exclude these examples now.

Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

Spot on post. Regardless of how it’s framed, Lopez made huge strides and improved as a defender. Duren is more athletic and certainly has that potential.

Exactly

Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

[TPA]

I've read your assertions and logic, and I'll state it again. I'd be willing to bet Duren's next contract (further debilitating injuries aside) is in the 20-25m ballpark.

I'm curious to hear why! And do you figure that'll be his contract number with or without significant improvement on defense?

Potential.
That's it.

[ducler]

I'm starting to be a bit intrigued by the idea to trade for Markkanen...

We can start with Bleacher's Report idea, which is essentially Harris and picks for him and his salary as Sasser and Fontecchio are likely out of rotation for us.

Trade would look like:

To Detroit: Lauri Markkanen (46,4M)
To Utah: Tobias Harris (26,6M), Simone Fontecchio (8,3M), Marcus Sasser (2,9M) and picks - total = 37,8M

I'm not so sure about CBA rules, so correct me if I'm wrong but, can we do this trade and then act as an over-the-cap and do the following moves?

Malik Beasley: full standard MLE, which is like 60,6M over the next 4 years, starting at 14,1M
Dennis Schröder: use his Early Bird Rights and sign him for 2 years for like 30M
Tim Hardaway Jr.: use BAE to keep him, like 10,5M over the next 2 years - his role will be considerably reduced but if we trade Tobias I keep him as a locker room vet

2025-2026 Roster:

Duren/Stewart
Markkanen/Ausar/Klintman
Ausar/Holland/Hardaway
Ivey/Beasley/Hardaway
Cade/Schröder

Fill the other spots with our draft pick, minimum salaries and two-way contracts.

[MotownMadness]

I'm starting to be a bit intrigued by the idea to trade for Markkanen...

We can start with Bleacher's Report idea, which is essentially Harris and picks for him and his salary as Sasser and Fontecchio are likely out of rotation for us.

Trade would look like:

To Detroit: Lauri Markkanen (46,4M)
To Utah: Tobias Harris (26,6M), Simone Fontecchio (8,3M), Marcus Sasser (2,9M) and picks - total = 37,8M

I'm not so sure about CBA rules, so correct me if I'm wrong but, can we do this trade and then act as an over-the-cap and do the following moves?

Malik Beasley: full standard MLE, which is like 60,6M over the next 4 years, starting at 14,1M
Dennis Schröder: use his Early Bird Rights and sign him for 2 years for like 30M
Tim Hardaway Jr.: use BAE to keep him, like 10,5M over the next 2 years - his role will be considerably reduced but if we trade Tobias I keep him as a locker room vet

2025-2026 Roster:

Duren/Stewart
Markkanen/Ausar/Klintman
Ausar/Holland/Hardaway
Ivey/Beasley/Hardaway
Cade/Schröder

Fill the other spots with our draft pick, minimum salaries and two-way contracts.

If you can get Lauri for that we would be pretty deep. Looks like a team that can make a run at the ECF.

[catari11]

It's a pipe dream. No way Danny Ainge settles for that. And, why would he take back Fontecchio? Makes no sense. Unfortunately, Ainge is likely to demand too high of a price for M.

[theBigLip]

It's a pipe dream. No way Danny Ainge settles for that. And, why would he take back Fontecchio? Makes no sense. Unfortunately, Ainge is likely to demand too high of a price for M.

It’s the picks that would get Ainge to agree, and not so much the players.

[ducler]

It's a pipe dream. No way Danny Ainge settles for that. And, why would he take back Fontecchio? Makes no sense. Unfortunately, Ainge is likely to demand too high of a price for M.

It’s the picks that would get Ainge to agree, and not so much the players.

Yeah, Jazz is looking to tank again and add picks.

They could see value in Tobias and Simone for their expiring contracts more than their actual level on the court. Both could be either traded at deadline (Tobias) or just waived (Simone).

They would also digress their payroll by 8,6M next year and will not have to pay the remaining 150M/3 years of Lauri's contract.

Sasser is the only piece they could eventually keep in this trade, as Sexton or Clarkson replacements at best.

[the_l_train]

It's a pipe dream. No way Danny Ainge settles for that. And, why would he take back Fontecchio? Makes no sense. Unfortunately, Ainge is likely to demand too high of a price for M.

It’s the picks that would get Ainge to agree, and not so much the players.

Yeah, Jazz is looking to tank again and add picks.

They could see value in Tobias and Simone for their expiring contracts more than their actual level on the court. Both could be either traded at deadline (Tobias) or just waived (Simone).

They would also digress their payroll by 8,6M next year and will not have to pay the remaining 150M/3 years of Lauri's contract.

Sasser is the only piece they could eventually keep in this trade, as Sexton or Clarkson replacements at best.

Yeah I don't see us being able to win a deal with Ainge.

Could be a smoke screen, but heard Ryen Russillo say recently that Ainge is telling people they are not tanking anymore. Who knows what that means...

[ducler]

It’s the picks that would get Ainge to agree, and not so much the players.

Yeah, Jazz is looking to tank again and add picks.

They could see value in Tobias and Simone for their expiring contracts more than their actual level on the court. Both could be either traded at deadline (Tobias) or just waived (Simone).

They would also digress their payroll by 8,6M next year and will not have to pay the remaining 150M/3 years of Lauri's contract.

Sasser is the only piece they could eventually keep in this trade, as Sexton or Clarkson replacements at best.

Yeah I don't see us being able to win a deal with Ainge.

Could be a smoke screen, but heard Ryen Russillo say recently that Ainge is telling people they are not tanking anymore. Who knows what that means...

Good luck for them to put on a roster that could at least reach a play-in spot.
Meaning that 2 of Thunder, Rockets, Lakers, Nuggets, Clippers, Wolves, Warriors, Grizzlies, Mavs, Suns, Spurs have to finish below them.

[TPA]

I know that Beasley has become a fan favorite, but I think he's served his purpose in Detroit; a cheap veteran contract and a three-point specialist. As good of a locker room guys as he is, and as good of a three-point shooter as he can be, he ain't gonna be cheap this time.
The acquisition of Schroder was, and remains, one of the more important gets for Detroit this season, IMO. Schroder can work as a primary ball-handler and/or play off-ball, serving as a perfect guard who can play behind/with either Ivey or Cade. Plus, he can create his own offense when needed and shoot the three-ball at a respectable clip. Plus, he fulfills a position of need on this team.
I don't know if either will be re-signed this off-season, but I think I'd make Schroder the higher priority of the two.

[Rip32]

I know that Beasley has become a fan favorite, but I think he's served his purpose in Detroit; a cheap veteran contract and a three-point specialist. As good of a locker room guys as he is, and as good of a three-point shooter as he can be, he ain't gonna be cheap this time.
The acquisition of Schroder was, and remains, one of the more important gets for Detroit this season, IMO. Schroder can work as a primary ball-handler and/or play off-ball, serving as a perfect guard who can play behind/with either Ivey or Cade. Plus, he can create his own offense when needed and shoot the three-ball at a respectable clip. Plus, he fulfills a position of need on this team.
I don't know if either will be re-signed this off-season, but I think I'd make Schroder the higher priority of the two.

I agree! I'm a huge fan of Chaz Lanier. Unlike Beasley, Chaz can post, create his own shot and spot up. I feel he can play a few minutes at point too.

Watch on YouTube

;t=825s

[MotownMadness]

I know that Beasley has become a fan favorite, but I think he's served his purpose in Detroit; a cheap veteran contract and a three-point specialist. As good of a locker room guys as he is, and as good of a three-point shooter as he can be, he ain't gonna be cheap this time.
The acquisition of Schroder was, and remains, one of the more important gets for Detroit this season, IMO. Schroder can work as a primary ball-handler and/or play off-ball, serving as a perfect guard who can play behind/with either Ivey or Cade. Plus, he can create his own offense when needed and shoot the three-ball at a respectable clip. Plus, he fulfills a position of need on this team.
I don't know if either will be re-signed this off-season, but I think I'd make Schroder the higher priority of the two.

IDK about that

Beasley won us some games on his own coming in and shooting like crazy. I wouldn’t pay Schroder over him anyways.

[tmorgan]

I don’t see Schroder as essential, assuming we’re prioritizing development over maximizing our potential to contend.

If Ivey can’t handle 14iah minutes a game as primary ball handler, send him out the door already. He’ll need to be that 40% three point shooter to have real value otherwise. He handled it OK (on a horrible team) as a rookie, I’d like to think he can do it better now.

I like Schroder. He made us better. But priorities exist, development is needed, and Schroder’s Pistons had no Ivey.

[theBigLip]

We also have no tradeable contracts except Font. Signing all of Beasley, Schroeder and THJ, if done at the right price and length, gives us some salaries to use in a trade. As for playing time and blocking the development of our youngsters, that’s up to the coach. Also up to Ausar, Ivey and Holland. Need to prove yourself at some point, especially Ivey since he’s been around the longest.

[TPA]

I know that Beasley has become a fan favorite, but I think he's served his purpose in Detroit; a cheap veteran contract and a three-point specialist. As good of a locker room guys as he is, and as good of a three-point shooter as he can be, he ain't gonna be cheap this time.
The acquisition of Schroder was, and remains, one of the more important gets for Detroit this season, IMO. Schroder can work as a primary ball-handler and/or play off-ball, serving as a perfect guard who can play behind/with either Ivey or Cade. Plus, he can create his own offense when needed and shoot the three-ball at a respectable clip. Plus, he fulfills a position of need on this team.
I don't know if either will be re-signed this off-season, but I think I'd make Schroder the higher priority of the two.

IDK about that

Beasley won us some games on his own coming in and shooting like crazy. I wouldn’t pay Schroder over him anyways.

I don't know about it exactly either. It might come down to what you covet more for this team... A legit starting-level backup PG or a floor-spacing sharp-shooting SG. What is the bigger position of need, and how much is the team willing to invest in either player in their role... Neither is possible. Both are improbable.

[MotownMadness]

I know that Beasley has become a fan favorite, but I think he's served his purpose in Detroit; a cheap veteran contract and a three-point specialist. As good of a locker room guys as he is, and as good of a three-point shooter as he can be, he ain't gonna be cheap this time.
The acquisition of Schroder was, and remains, one of the more important gets for Detroit this season, IMO. Schroder can work as a primary ball-handler and/or play off-ball, serving as a perfect guard who can play behind/with either Ivey or Cade. Plus, he can create his own offense when needed and shoot the three-ball at a respectable clip. Plus, he fulfills a position of need on this team.
I don't know if either will be re-signed this off-season, but I think I'd make Schroder the higher priority of the two.

IDK about that

Beasley won us some games on his own coming in and shooting like crazy. I wouldn’t pay Schroder over him anyways.

I don't know about it exactly either. It might come down to what you covet more for this team... A legit starting-level backup PG or a floor-spacing sharp-shooting SG. What is the bigger position of need, and how much is the team willing to invest in either player in their role... Neither is possible. Both are improbable.

Regular season Beasley I like, the playoffs scared me.

He was making some crazy contested 3s all season. Plenty of times we felt flat and he would come in and light a spark.

[dVs33]

Beasley struggled in the playoffs, but I don't think the team gets there without him, so he has to come back imo.
Ivey coming back makes Schroeder slightly less important, but I would still like to bring him back.

Obviously that all depends on contract numbers, but if it's feasible, bring those 2 back.