Should anyone besides Cade be "untouchable"?

[Kalamazoo317]

I also think you need an elite defensive stopper to win at the highest levels and we have that with Ausar, whereas Booker isn't that.

Sure. That still doesn’t change the fact that Booker is much better and more valuable than Ausar.

I think it's reasonable for folks to look at players who've been around for a while, make a ton of money, and have not contributed to winning basketball in a bit, and question whether that's someone who just on the basis of pure talent is going to hugely improve your team. Team-building isn't the same as just throwing together all-stars. We've seen how that goes.

[hoophabit]

I'm not sure I'd declare anyone "untouchable," although there's no one on this list I'm anxious to see traded. This young team (minus Stew and Ivey) played the Knicks very competitively. The Knicks are now doing the same with the defending champs. After this past season the current Pistons front office is getting my benefit of the doubt for the time being.

[Kalamazoo317]

Sure. Honestly, in the right deal, Cade's not untouchable either.

[Laimbeer]

I would listen to offers on Ausar. He has had significant playing time for two seasons and has not shown a pulse from three. His free throw percentage is also not good. And it isn't like he came into the league as a teenager. I seriously question if he is going to become proficient from three just from practice and coaching. There is a hard ceiling on a perimeter player's value if they can't shoot the three.

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[MotownMadness]

I would listen to offers on Ausar. He has had significant playing time for two seasons and has not shown a pulse from three. His free throw percentage is also not good. And it isn't like he came into the league as a teenager. I seriously question if he is going to become proficient from three just from practice and coaching. There is a hard ceiling on a perimeter player's value if they can't shoot the three.

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I doubt he ever shoots the 3 above 30%. He is an elite defender with elite athleticism though. Would need to be in a package for a star player in my opinion cause he’s having an impact on our W/L column at the moment.

[the_l_train]

I would listen to offers on Ausar. He has had significant playing time for two seasons and has not shown a pulse from three. His free throw percentage is also not good. And it isn't like he came into the league as a teenager. I seriously question if he is going to become proficient from three just from practice and coaching. There is a hard ceiling on a perimeter player's value if they can't shoot the three.

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I doubt he ever shoots the 3 above 30%. He is an elite defender with elite athleticism though. Would need to be in a package for a star player in my opinion cause he’s having an impact on or W/L column at the moment.

Love Ausar, but terrified the blood clot thing pops up again.

[MotownMadness]

I would listen to offers on Ausar. He has had significant playing time for two seasons and has not shown a pulse from three. His free throw percentage is also not good. And it isn't like he came into the league as a teenager. I seriously question if he is going to become proficient from three just from practice and coaching. There is a hard ceiling on a perimeter player's value if they can't shoot the three.

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I doubt he ever shoots the 3 above 30%. He is an elite defender with elite athleticism though. Would need to be in a package for a star player in my opinion cause he’s having an impact on or W/L column at the moment.

Love Ausar, but terrified the blood clot thing pops up again.

Yeah that would suck

[Crymson]

I think Cade is untouchable insofar as he's the sort of essential franchise player whom you're very unlikely to improve upon in a trade.

Anyone else? No. None of them are good enough at this point to merit that tag. I'm surprised to see Ausar get so many votes given that he's currently got a ceiling-crippling downside. No matter how good you are on defense, your ability to provide value is always going to be hardcore capped if you're a non-shooter unless you're one of those extremely rare players who's so good on the ball that he's worth building around. Ausar is a universe away from being that good on the ball at the moment. Hardly anyone ever gets there.

I doubt he ever shoots the 3 above 30%. He is an elite defender with elite athleticism though. Would need to be in a package for a star player in my opinion cause he’s having an impact on or W/L column at the moment.

He's going to be an eternally awkward postseason fit if he can't shoot. It'll be more of an issue the further into the postseason the Pistons go and the harder the competition becomes. It's not just his inability to shoot and the plethora of downsides that come with it -- it's also that fielding him comes with the opportunity cost of not having a player in his place who CAN shoot.

Flawed role player is immutably his ceiling unless he becomes at least a passable shooter. That isn't an untouchable player. It doesn't help that he hasn't got a ton going for him as an on-ball creator either.

[MotownMadness]

I doubt he ever shoots the 3 above 30%. He is an elite defender with elite athleticism though. Would need to be in a package for a star player in my opinion cause he’s having an impact on or W/L column at the moment.

He's going to be an eternally awkward postseason fit if he can't shoot. It'll be more of an issue the further into the postseason the Pistons go and the harder the competition becomes. It's not just his inability to shoot and the plethora of downsides that come with it -- it's also that fielding him comes with the opportunity cost of not having a player in his place who CAN shoot.

Flawed role player is immutably his ceiling unless he becomes at least a passable shooter. That isn't an untouchable player. It doesn't help that he hasn't got a ton going for him as an on-ball creator either.

He’s definitely flawed and not untouchable.

[the_l_train]

Trying to think of examples of players who came in as horrible shooters and eventually figured out……….

Let’s hope more time with our shooting coach makes a difference.

[Invictus88]

Trying to think of examples of players who came in as horrible shooters and eventually figured out……….

Let’s hope more time with our shooting coach makes a difference.

Kawhi Leonard?

He changed his shot between college and the pros though.

[Canadafan]

Trying to think of examples of players who came in as horrible shooters and eventually figured out……….

Let’s hope more time with our shooting coach makes a difference.

Kawhi Leonard?

He changed his shot between college and the pros though.

That's who I was going to respond with and then I decided to check his stats and his percentages looked good right from his rookie year. I do remember the praise the Spurs got for fixing his shot though

[Crymson]

Kawhi Leonard?

He changed his shot between college and the pros though.

He was fine from season one in the NBA -- and his NCAA shot form was just flawed rather than completely broken.

It's not just that Ausar came in bad, but that he came in really, REALLY bad. As a rookie, he achieved the extremely dubious distinction of logging more airballs than makes. They opted to not even have him try shooting threes as a sophomore, which I can't help but conclude was a negative commentary upon his progress.

I'm not without hope, but he'd certainly be defying the odds.

[the_l_train]

Trying to think of examples of players who came in as horrible shooters and eventually figured out……….

Let’s hope more time with our shooting coach makes a difference.

Kawhi Leonard?

He changed his shot between college and the pros though.

That's who I was going to respond with and then I decided to check his stats and his percentages looked good right from his rookie year. I do remember the praise the Spurs got for fixing his shot though

The only sad name I could think of was Michael Kidd Gilchrist…he only had 2 flukey seasons where he was decent. One of the ugliest shots on earth though.

His second year he shot .111 and got it up to .340 by his 7th season…and he had one season at .429 but it was a small sample size and only played 7 games….career average at .272. Safe to say if Ausar ever gets near .340 in a season we would all be thrilled.

Tough when 3 of our building blocks are complete non-factors from 3 (Ausar/Holland/Duren). Holland has the best chance to figure it out once the game slows down for him, but Fred Vinson has his work cut out for him.

That’s why I don’t mind keeping Sasser around….he’s .378 on his career, and doesn’t turn the ball over.

[Crymson]

The only sad name I could think of was Michael Kidd Gilchrist…he only had 2 flukey seasons where he was decent. One of the ugliest shots on earth though.

His second year he shot .111 and got it up to .340 by his 7th season…and he had one season at .429 but it was a small sample size and only played 7 games….career average at .272.

MKG was actually the example that came most to mind for me in terms of guys who came in with terrible form and ended up being bad shooters -- his form was an absolute abomination. He was never a reliable shooter, and his percentage was almost irrelevant given how rarely he shot the ball. His coaches did not want him shooting.
 

Tough when 3 of our building blocks are complete non-factors from 3 (Ausar/Holland/Duren). Holland has the best chance to figure it out once the game slows down for him, but Fred Vinson has his work cut out for him.

I think Holland will be in the high thirties within the next two seasons. Duren is what he is as a shooter given his archetype -- the real trouble with him is that he's quite bad at the #1 most important skill for a traditional big (defense).

That’s why I don’t mind keeping Sasser around….he’s .378 on his career, and doesn’t turn the ball over.

I wish he were a viable NBA rotation player, but he isn't. Sure, he's not turnover prone, but he's also absolutely awful at breaking down defenses from on the ball, and the latter is part of the reason for the former: he doesn't get into high-danger areas in the interior, because he can't reliably get deep into the interior at all. That incapacity as a handler effectively limits him to being an undersized shooting specialist who's an inherent liability on defense because of his size, and that's a tough role to provide value in these days. It's made even tougher by how streaky he is.

He's a good depth player, but he was a bizarre pick by Weaver in the first place. He was going to need to be a decent handler in order to provide value in the NBA, and he'd been bad in that role even as a fourth-year college player against NCAA defenses.

[Invictus88]

So here's the deal with Ausar: Even as a 2nd year player his defense alone is so good that it basically makes him untouchable for us. He literally took one of the best players in the league (Brunson) and neutralized him. (While they were on the floor together Brunson became an inefficient chucker) And he's only going to get better.

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We are simply a much better team with him on the floor for us and the numbers prove it. And if you are going to throw him away then you better throw away Duren while you are at it; because Duren plays much worse on defense when not teaming with him.

His shot is definitely a concern. If he ends up finding one then his ceiling becomes ridiculous.

[Crymson]

He literally took one of the best players in the league (Brunson) and neutralized him. (While they were on the floor together Brunson became an inefficient chucker)

Brunson logged 59% TS against Ausar, good overall and better than his postseason average. Simple numbers can't fully take into account the overall quality of the defense Ausar played on him, of course, but inefficient chucker he was not.

For comparison's sake, Brunson managed 51% against White and only 43% against Holiday.

So here's the deal with Ausar: Even as a 2nd year player his defense alone is so good that it basically makes him untouchable for us.

I'd argue that there's not a single player in the league who's untouchable on the basis of defense alone, not even bigs and definitely not perimeter players who can't shoot. Ausar currently comes with a major cost on offense that eats a great deal into his overall value.

His shot is definitely a concern. If he ends up finding one then his ceiling becomes ridiculous.

If he becomes a shooter, then he'd immediately become capable of starting for a championship team.

As far as his overall offensive ceiling is concerned, though, I'd say that would still depend a great deal upon his development as an on-ball creator. He was remarkably bad at scoring off the drive in OTE, and he's struggled with both his overall handle and his touch in the NBA so far as well.

And if you are going to throw him away then you better throw away Duren while you are at it; because Duren plays much worse on defense when not teaming with him.

Duren will need to make a huge defensive leap of his own accord if he's going to be a viable starting center of any sort in this league, let alone start for a contender.

[the_l_train]

Without looking at the numbers, I’d guess Shroder was our most efficient defender on Brunson. Hard to say though when Ausar had a million phantom fouls.

Ausar is still the second most untouchable on team if we had to rank them, with Ivey a close 3rd due to their ceilings.

Amen/Ausars value may be at an all-time high right now while they have so many “what-ifs” in their game that haven’t materialized yet. It’s a real roll of the dice if we move him anytime soon, but if the price is right, now may be the time.

[Crymson]

Without looking at the numbers, I’d guess Shroder was our most efficient defender on Brunson. Hard to say though when Ausar had a million phantom fouls.

From a pure efficiency standpoint, they were roughly equal. Ausar did a better job of denying opportunities from developing, though Schroder was superior at harassing him without fouling.

Ausar is still the second most untouchable on team if we had to rank them, with Ivey a close 3rd due to their ceilings.

How so?

[the_l_train]

Without looking at the numbers, I’d guess Shroder was our most efficient defender on Brunson. Hard to say though when Ausar had a million phantom fouls.

From a pure efficiency standpoint, they were roughly equal. Ausar did a better job of denying opportunities from developing, though Schroder was superior at harassing him without fouling.

Ausar is still the second most untouchable on team if we had to rank them, with Ivey a close 3rd due to their ceilings.

How so?

Now that Ivey can hit 3s, he could be our most dangerous player on offense if he pans out. Cade obviously still our number 1 overall guy but I think Iveys ceiling is a poor mans Donovan Mitchell.

Ausars ceiling is closer to poor mans Kawhi, hence that order.