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[Snakebites]

Dion should fire his agent.

Like immediately.

I'm 50/50 on that.

On one hand I'm inclined to believe that from the moment Oladipo was acquired, letting Waiters go was ALWAYS on the table and Waiters' camp should have anticipated it.

On the other hand, how many times are qualifying offers rescinded this early in the process? Seems like a tough move to predict.

Side note: I am so confused by Portland. They have something like 290 million dollars devoted to their wing positions over the next 4 years. And if anyone thinks I'm just randomly throwing a number out there, Evan Turner got 70 mill, Allen Crabbe got 74 mill, CJ got 106 million, and now Harkless adds 40 million.

Oh my.....

[Blkbrd671]

Dion should fire his agent.

Like immediately.

I'm 50/50 on that.

On one hand I'm inclined to believe that from the moment Oladipo was acquired, letting Waiters go was ALWAYS on the table and Waiters' camp should have anticipated it.

On the other hand, how many times are qualifying offers rescinded this early in the process? Seems like a tough move to predict.

Side note: I am so confused by Portland. They have something like 290 million dollars devoted to their wing positions over the next 4 years. And if anyone thinks I'm just randomly throwing a number out there, Evan Turner got 70 mill, Allen Crabbe got 74 mill, CJ got 106 million, and now Harkless adds 40 million.

Oh my.....

i think they few Evan turner as a point forward, and even Power Forward. I think they look at GS and see how well their investments went. At worst Crabbe will be traded for assets midseason.

[Snakebites]

Dion should fire his agent.

Like immediately.

I'm 50/50 on that.

On one hand I'm inclined to believe that from the moment Oladipo was acquired, letting Waiters go was ALWAYS on the table and Waiters' camp should have anticipated it.

On the other hand, how many times are qualifying offers rescinded this early in the process? Seems like a tough move to predict.

Side note: I am so confused by Portland. They have something like 290 million dollars devoted to their wing positions over the next 4 years. And if anyone thinks I'm just randomly throwing a number out there, Evan Turner got 70 mill, Allen Crabbe got 74 mill, CJ got 106 million, and now Harkless adds 40 million.

Oh my.....

i think they few Evan turner as a point forward, and even Power Forward. I think they look at GS and see how well their investments went. At worst Crabbe will be traded for assets midseason.

I feel like the worst thing a team can do is try to put together an overpriced Wal-Mart knockoff of the Warriors. Lillard/CJ is not Curry/Klay. Its a talented duo but not at that level. Most of all, Evan Turner is not Draymond Green, and to me you almost need a Draymond Green type, a guy who can play the Scottie Pippen type role on offense while also being able to guard bigs (not sure there is another guy like that in the league btw) to really make their style work.

They're sure getting paid like that though.

[Blkbrd671]

I'm 50/50 on that.

On one hand I'm inclined to believe that from the moment Oladipo was acquired, letting Waiters go was ALWAYS on the table and Waiters' camp should have anticipated it.

On the other hand, how many times are qualifying offers rescinded this early in the process? Seems like a tough move to predict.

Side note: I am so confused by Portland. They have something like 290 million dollars devoted to their wing positions over the next 4 years. And if anyone thinks I'm just randomly throwing a number out there, Evan Turner got 70 mill, Allen Crabbe got 74 mill, CJ got 106 million, and now Harkless adds 40 million.

Oh my.....

i think they few Evan turner as a point forward, and even Power Forward. I think they look at GS and see how well their investments went. At worst Crabbe will be traded for assets midseason.

I feel like the worst thing a team can do is try to put together an overpriced Wal-Mart knockoff of the Warriors. Lillard/CJ is not Curry/Klay. Its a talented duo but not at that level. Most of all, Evan Turner is not Draymond Green, and to me you almost need a Draymond Green type, a guy who can play the Scottie Pippen type role on offense while also being able to guard bigs (not sure there is another guy like that in the league btw) to really make their style work.

They're sure getting paid like that though.

Not that they will ever be the GSW , but moreso they see the benefit of having Guards that can score and consistently need to be game planned for. I really think Evan Turner's play making ability is underrated. I think the only reason they matched Crabee is because they can get more for him if they traded him this season .

If you adjust for the 34% cap increase(estimated), there contracts are about on par.

[DBC10]

Dion should fire his agent.

Like immediately.

I'm 50/50 on that.

On one hand I'm inclined to believe that from the moment Oladipo was acquired, letting Waiters go was ALWAYS on the table and Waiters' camp should have anticipated it.

On the other hand, how many times are qualifying offers rescinded this early in the process? Seems like a tough move to predict.

Side note: I am so confused by Portland. They have something like 290 million dollars devoted to their wing positions over the next 4 years. And if anyone thinks I'm just randomly throwing a number out there, Evan Turner got 70 mill, Allen Crabbe got 74 mill, CJ got 106 million, and now Harkless adds 40 million.

Oh my.....

Right...I don't think OKC ever wanted to re-sign Waiters at all, even after his relative playoff success. His QO was set around north of 6 million to start I believe. I think OKC did that for a future of re-signing WB and they need every inch of cap they can get, especially if they're going to keep Oladipo. It's a weird power play that something Presti is doing.

Which is lunacy from Dion's view, that he couldn't even get that at all and settled for significantly less.

[Snakebites]

i think they few Evan turner as a point forward, and even Power Forward. I think they look at GS and see how well their investments went. At worst Crabbe will be traded for assets midseason.

I feel like the worst thing a team can do is try to put together an overpriced Wal-Mart knockoff of the Warriors. Lillard/CJ is not Curry/Klay. Its a talented duo but not at that level. Most of all, Evan Turner is not Draymond Green, and to me you almost need a Draymond Green type, a guy who can play the Scottie Pippen type role on offense while also being able to guard bigs (not sure there is another guy like that in the league btw) to really make their style work.

They're sure getting paid like that though.

Not that they will ever be the GSW , but moreso they see the benefit of having Guards that can score and consistently need to be game planned for. I really think Evan Turner's play making ability is underrated. I think the only reason they matched Crabee is because they can get more for him if they traded him this season .

If you adjust for the 34% cap increase(estimated), there contracts are about on par.

There's no way Turner and Crabbe are on par even with the cap hike. That implies they are worth 12-13 million under the old cap. No way.

Even if I accept that, I'd still object to the decision to sign all FOUR of them.

[Pharaoh]

I feel like the worst thing a team can do is try to put together an overpriced Wal-Mart knockoff of the Warriors. Lillard/CJ is not Curry/Klay. Its a talented duo but not at that level. Most of all, Evan Turner is not Draymond Green, and to me you almost need a Draymond Green type, a guy who can play the Scottie Pippen type role on offense while also being able to guard bigs (not sure there is another guy like that in the league btw) to really make their style work.

They're sure getting paid like that though.

Not that they will ever be the GSW , but moreso they see the benefit of having Guards that can score and consistently need to be game planned for. I really think Evan Turner's play making ability is underrated. I think the only reason they matched Crabee is because they can get more for him if they traded him this season .

If you adjust for the 34% cap increase(estimated), there contracts are about on par.

There's no way Turner and Crabbe are on par even with the cap hike. That implies they are worth 12-13 million under the old cap. No way.

Even if I accept that, I'd still object to the decision to sign all FOUR of them.

Agree with Snake in that signing all of them is foolish.

Team now has limited flexibility to make moves...but I believe they're going for this set up:

Quality guards
Versatile forwards
Mix n match bigs

Time will tell but I believe they'll be a treadmill team from now on

[Blkbrd671]

Not that they will ever be the GSW , but moreso they see the benefit of having Guards that can score and consistently need to be game planned for. I really think Evan Turner's play making ability is underrated. I think the only reason they matched Crabee is because they can get more for him if they traded him this season .

If you adjust for the 34% cap increase(estimated), there contracts are about on par.

There's no way Turner and Crabbe are on par even with the cap hike. That implies they are worth 12-13 million under the old cap. No way.

Even if I accept that, I'd still object to the decision to sign all FOUR of them.

Why wouldn't Evan Turner get 12-13 mil when guys like Danny Green and Carrol get 14-16 mil?

“Well, he leads the NBA in assists off the bench,” Ainge told the team’s flagship station. “He’s a huge [in the] fourth-quarter. Everybody in Boston knows how big he’s been for us at the end of so many games this year. I don’t know what the league views of Evan.

“I think Evan sees himself as a starter and not a sixth man. But I think that in a lot of ways he is because he’s in the game often at the end. But Evan certainly should be a candidate for Sixth Man of the Year. No question.”

Turner is one of only two players in the NBA this season to record at least 350 rebounds, 350 assists and commit fewer than 175 turnovers.

He's pretty much a poor man's draymond and easily worth 12-13 mil on open market.

Crabbee i think is a overpay, but the nets seem willing to pay him that and if it doesn't work out with Portland, then they probably are goign to have multiple suitors or at least brklyn.

Agree with Snake in that signing all of them is foolish.

Team now has limited flexibility to make moves...but I believe they're going for this set up:

Quality guards
Versatile forwards
Mix n match bigs

Time will tell but I believe they'll be a treadmill team from now on

That is assuming they keep all 4. In the nba the more talent and depth you have the better. Lillard bares a huge responsibilty to score and play make, retaining guys like Crabbee certainly can't hurt since there is a market and turner helps share the playing making load. I think the only reason they extended mccollum is because he indicated or they felt if he hit the open market he'd leave or be to pricey considering this off seasons deals.

[Snakebites]

Green and Carroll got extra money because they play defense and hit the long ball, two extremely valuable skills.

I'll admit I don't know much about Turner's defensive aptitude, but he sure isn't a shooter. No way he's in league with what those guys were perceived to be when they signed their deals.

And I generally think you don't evaluate signings based on the assumption that somebody is going to get traded. Everyone did that when we had Richard Hamilton and Ben Gordon on our team both making crazy money.

[MrBigShot]

I think the amount of money the blazers tied to Harkless/Crabbe/Turner over the next four seasons is absolutely insane. Harkless is 23 years old and pretty meh. Crabbe is a nice role player, but he hasn't proven that he can contribute anything other than shooting the ball. Not a shot creator, not a playmaker, not a high impact defender, not a good rebounder for his position. As for Turner, I attribute a lot of his success in Boston to the brilliance of Brad Stevens as a coach. Not that Stotts is a bad coach by any means, but Stevens has a knack for getting the most out of the talent he has to work with and getting a team to perform at a level higher than the sum of the parts.

In regards to the idea that they can be traded later anyway...generally, I'd say that's a legitimate point when evaluating an overpay for proven high quality talent. A guy like Mike Conley getting 150 million over 5 seasons is an overpay imo. But even if it's an overpay, he's still a proven two-way point guard that is a top tier defender for his position, can shoot the ball and brings a fairly valuable amount of scoring & playmaking. A team might trade for overpayed quality talent (i.e. Joe Johnson) but they are far less likely to trade for overpayed mediocre talent barring the inclusion of other assets.

[Blkbrd671]

Green and Carroll got extra money because they play defense and hit the long ball, two extremely valuable skills.

Absolutely agree, i don't see Bullock getting that number though. Additionally its not the only 2 valuable skills.

I'll admit I don't know much about Turner's defensive aptitude, but he sure isn't a shooter. No way he's in league with what those guys were perceived to be when they signed their deals.

He is not a 3 point shooter, but sure as hell is a good midrange shooter, rebounder, play maker etc. Literally a poor man's draymond, and this season he'll look to have a larger role. His versatility really is where his value is at and easily worth 12-13mil. We can revisit this half way through the season, but i venture to guess you'll be surprised by Turner's play.

And I generally think you don't evaluate signings based on the assumption that somebody is going to get traded. Everyone did that when we had Richard Hamilton and Ben Gordon on our team both making crazy money.

In a vacuum i'd agree with the analogy, however it is absolutely a different situation.

Portland had choices they had to make. Lillard needed help to shoulder the play making load, Turner is perfect for that and can play 1-4 positions. CJ mccollum extention is a no brainer and probably a bargain if these contracts continue to escalate, and matching Crabbee , a player entering his 4th season shooting nearly 40% from 3, and has been improving every season he's been in the league. There is really no reason to think he won't continue developing.

While i don't disagree that signing a player with the intent on trading him later is a great strategy, in the context of Portlands offseason situation and strategy, i can understand why they made those deals. At worst , Portland will have assets at the trade deadline to make moves. I really don't think there's anything these players could do before the deadline, other than Larry Sander's this b*, that would make their value dive to point where Portland would have to give up assets to dump them.

[Blkbrd671]

I think the amount of money the blazers tied to Harkless/Crabbe/Turner over the next four seasons is absolutely insane. Harkless is 23 years old and pretty meh. Crabbe is a nice role player, but he hasn't proven that he can contribute anything other than shooting the ball. Not a shot creator, not a playmaker, not a high impact defender, not a good rebounder for his position. As for Turner, I attribute a lot of his success in Boston to the brilliance of Brad Stevens as a coach. Not that Stotts is a bad coach by any means, but Stevens has a knack for getting the most out of the talent he has to work with and getting a team to perform at a level higher than the sum of the parts.

Harkless is making about 7.5 million dollars under the old CBA. This was probably Portlands only real risky move as the signing is based on potential. He's a freak athlete that is versatile as f* and still young and developing. I am guessing they had to overpay to get him to stay. I venture they overpaid by about 3 mil per year , which isn't exactly a immovable contract. If he pans out, then it'll be a bargain. I really think they signed him and he was highly sought after in the FA market, because of the perception he could give Durant at least a hard time on his route to 50 ppg.

I will concede i when i saw the contract vs production.

In regards to the idea that they can be traded later anyway...generally, I'd say that's a legitimate point when evaluating an overpay for proven high quality talent. A guy like Mike Conley getting 150 million over 5 seasons is an overpay imo. But even if it's an overpay, he's still a proven two-way point guard that is a top tier defender for his position, can shoot the ball and brings a fairly valuable amount of scoring & playmaking. A team might trade for overpayed quality talent (i.e. Joe Johnson) but they are far less likely to trade for overpayed mediocre talent barring the inclusion of other assets.

kind of goes both ways, its not exactly the easiest thing to clear 30 million dollars off your books to acquire a player. Furthermore ,as i explained to Snake, Crabbee is a young developing SG who is trending upwards and already has a team(S) that obviously willing to pay him, Turner's is a versatile player that is exactly what Portland needed on a FV contract. Harkless is probably the riskiest contract,but I really don't see how Turner and Crabbee could possibly devalue themselves so much that Portland couldn't trade them at the deadline. Even if they do struggle, the narrative will go "its because of the overload at the position" and some GM will trade from them.

[coordinator0]

Green and Carroll got extra money because they play defense and hit the long ball, two extremely valuable skills.

I'll admit I don't know much about Turner's defensive aptitude, but he sure isn't a shooter. No way he's in league with what those guys were perceived to be when they signed their deals.

And I generally think you don't evaluate signings based on the assumption that somebody is going to get traded. Everyone did that when we had Richard Hamilton and Ben Gordon on our team both making crazy money.

You're not missing much. Turner doesn't defend well at all, which is my biggest question mark with the big money Portland has handed out. Lillard and McCollum are unquestionably bad defenders and Turner and Crabbe aren't good either. Harkless can be when he doesn't dissapear. Leonard showed flashes of not being atrocious on that end last season but I wouldn't bet much on him becoming an asset on that end, just not a liability. Should be a fun to watch as an offensive team built around the perimeter, but I don't think they're well-rounded enough to pose any kind of serious threat to anyone.

Portland had choices they had to make. Lillard needed help to shoulder the play making load, Turner is perfect for that and can play 1-4 positions.

Turner isn't a power forward by any stretch of the imagination. He's not even much of a viable option to guard those teams who play small forwards at the four like Detroit does with Harris or Morris.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/turneev01/lineups/2016/

Basketball reference doesn't support that notion either. I get that you're trying to push that he's extremely versatile like Draymond, but that's going a bit too far. Very weird sentiment.

[Blkbrd671]

Green and Carroll got extra money because they play defense and hit the long ball, two extremely valuable skills.

I'll admit I don't know much about Turner's defensive aptitude, but he sure isn't a shooter. No way he's in league with what those guys were perceived to be when they signed their deals.

And I generally think you don't evaluate signings based on the assumption that somebody is going to get traded. Everyone did that when we had Richard Hamilton and Ben Gordon on our team both making crazy money.

You're not missing much. Turner doesn't defend well at all, which is my biggest question mark with the big money Portland has handed out. Lillard and McCollum are unquestionably bad defenders and Turner and Crabbe aren't good either. Harkless can be when he doesn't dissapear. Leonard showed flashes of not being atrocious on that end last season but I wouldn't bet much on him becoming an asset on that end, just not a liability. Should be a fun to watch as an offensive team built around the perimeter, but I don't think they're well-rounded enough to pose any kind of serious threat to anyone.

He has a pretty decent DWS and doesn't even play 30 mpg. You are correct though that defense is a question. Harkless most certainly can help and Crabbee is at least decent. Both players i'd like to add are still very young.

Portland had choices they had to make. Lillard needed help to shoulder the play making load, Turner is perfect for that and can play 1-4 positions.

Turner isn't a power forward by any stretch of the imagination. He's not even much of a viable option to guard those teams who play small forwards at the four like Detroit does with Harris or Morris.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/turneev01/lineups/2016/

Basketball reference doesn't support that notion either. I get that you're trying to push that he's extremely versatile like Draymond, but that's going a bit too far. Very weird sentiment.

They signed him because they needed another player that could shoulder the load. Turner has the size to play the 4 positions in small ball line ups and i believe we'll see him there. Defensively he'll be a liability as you point out. I am pushing him as a Draymond because that is the quintessential example of a player that is good a lot of different aspects of the game, which is what Turner is.My sentiment comes from, when i watch Evan Turner play, i think he's one hell of a skilled player rather than a product of a system. I think much like Mook flourished with us, Turner will flourish with a increase roll in Portland, and being surrounded by scorers obviously going to help.

[zeebneeb]

Something none of us should take for granted is the fact that our favorite team is stable, good, and on the upswing into greater heights. I have been browsing all the other boards and there are so many delusional team fans I almost feel bad that their dreams, and hopes are going to be crushed.

Number one saying I have been reading? (Orlando board, Bucks board, Chicago board, Wizards board, knicks board.)

"After Cleveland, Toronto and maybe Boston, the east is wide open". "3-8 is wide open" or variations of this theme.

Nothing could be further from the truth. My absolute locks to make the playoffs in the East this year barring injuries.

In no particular order;

Cleveland
Toronto
Boston
Detroit

Teams most likely to make playoffs 80%+.

Hawks
Pacers

teams with a plus chance 60%+

Hornets
Wizards

Now I'm not saying these are my 100% playoff picks (save for my 4 locks) but the most likely. So getting down to it, fans of the teams I have listed are saying "3-8 is wide open" some even "2-8 is wide open" this couldn't be further from the truth.

There are, in my mind, the top 4 absolute locks. I could be convinced in Indiana making it 5, but I am worried about their defense. I could also be convinced on Atlanta but turnover also gives me pause.

So for all those other teams fans, the east is absolutely not wide open.

Your team is going to have to claw their way into the playoffs.

The Detroit Pistons are back, badass, and becoming a powerhouse. I am so glad we are not part of the delusional group. So glad.

Embrace it Piston fans, and enjoy reading various team boards to soak in not being a hopefully fan base in terms of the playoffs, but being a hopefully Piston fan in getting better, and going deeper.

The Pistons indeed are going to take a **** on the East this year.

[hoophabit]

Don't miss this one:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1469302

The title alone...

[Blkbrd671]

Don't miss this one:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1469302

The title alone...

love the poster who posted a picture of Embid's actual ceiling.

[BadMofoPimp]

Don't miss this one:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1469302

The title alone...

love the poster who posted a picture of Embid's actual ceiling.

I posted his ceiling as Greg Oden.

[hoophabit]

Don't miss this one:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1469302

The title alone...

love the poster who posted a picture of Embid's actual ceiling.

I posted his ceiling as Greg Oden.

Sadly, that comparison naturally occurs for a highly touted big who can't stay on the floor due to injuries. I'd hate to see that be his fate. Unfortunately, the track record for bigs prone to foot problems isn't too great.

[Snakebites]

Reports are that the Thunder and Westbrook are making progress on an extension.

I hope that's true. Don't think I could stomach him on the Celtics.