Kawhi Leonard

[Pharaoh]

Al Jefferson plays inside out too, but you'd never want to build a team around him. Monroe is a lot more like Jefferson than he is like the sorts of bigs who you would desire to build a team around from the inside out. If he wasn't, there would be no talk of trading him in the first place.

Yes., young blood that might be true, one wouldn't want to build a team around the Al Jeferson you see today.

But Minnesota wanted to build a winner around Big Al back in the day... and couldn't.

That didn't stop Utah from attempting to succeed where Minnesota failed.

And that is why young, talented big men are worth more than quality swingmen, even a man as amazing as Leonard. I'm a huge fan of his BTW...

Monroe, at 23 years old has "learnt" the basics of NBA basketball in Detroit... and some team would be willing to part with quite a pretty pplayer package for the chance to build around Moose.

Assuming that team fails to build a big time winner around Monroe after 3 or 4 years another team would be willing to take another chance on Moose, since he'd only be 28 or 29 years old at the time.. and say it with me now people..."bigs develop later"

I've got no beef with a Leonard fan, like I said I love his game, love his motor, Pop loves him and Pop is way smarter than I am, or you are or any of us who post on this site are!

But I'd your life that Pop would trade Leonard for Monroe in a heartbeat and wouldn't even think twice about it! And that's not a knock on Leonard, it's just a fact that in order to win a ring you need a stud big man or an other worldly guard... and Leonard isn't a big... and he's not other worldly

And FWIW: Monroe ain't on the block. Just cause some crazy posters are entertaining thoughts of trading him doesn't mean the actual Detroit Pistons organisation is doing the same. Monroe is not on the block

[imagump1313]

I don't think any of us are saying build a team around Leonard. Leonard is not even a great player yet but he is a perfect fit for the Spurs system and hopefully keeps getting better and better.

I like Monroe(I've said it a couple of times now) but there are 3 problems with him. 1)he is not a good fit for us with Splitter and Duncan. 2) I think Detroiters overrate him something crazy. 3) He is going to be looking for a max contract next year.
He is not a good defender.
He is a marginal rebounder.
Yes he can score in the post somewhat if the person who is guarding him is equally un-athletic.

I love Monroe's work ethic and hustle most of the time. Maybe it's because he was on a bad team, but I also saw him quit on plays several times a game. (Watch the video of Brandon Knight getting dunked on against the Clippers last year for an example). I would consider Monroe for Splitter pretty much a lateral move. He is a slightly better player than Splitter IMO because he is younger and a little better scorer, but he will command more than 2x what Splitter makes next year which cancels that out. Also, giving up Leonard would leave a giant hole for the Spurs to fill.

[zeebneeb]

Monroe's passing is nice, that's been alluded to in this thread already. That's about the only thing that makes him more valuable than Al Jefferson though (who has negligible value). That, and the fleeting hope he will become a different player because he's younger.

If Monroe is so valuable, why is he on the block in the first place? The answer is pretty obvious.

Monroes on the block? I would love to see that link.

OR is it that your using RealGM as your source? Hell if that's the case, Drummond is on the block for Rondo.

[sc8581]

Monroe isn't really on the block but he should be. He isn't as good as Jefferson and likely never will be, nobody is building a team around him that's just silly.

Leonard looks to me to be the next Shawn Marion, similar skill-set and size, could easily be the #2 option on a championship team and he still has room to grow because he's an athlete unlike Moose.

[DetroitDon15]

Monroe isn't really on the block but he should be. He isn't as good as Jefferson and likely never will be, nobody is building a team around him that's just silly.

Leonard looks to me to be the next Shawn Marion, similar skill-set and size, could easily be the #2 option on a championship team and he still has room to grow because he's an athlete unlike Moose.

Monroe is better than Leonard. Bigs who can get 16/10 will always make more than wings who are athletic and get 12/6. Hell look at Pekovic being offered 12 per and wanting 15. Says all you need to know about bigs who can play.

[Jodi]

Monroe isn't really on the block but he should be. He isn't as good as Jefferson and likely never will be, nobody is building a team around him that's just silly.

Leonard looks to me to be the next Shawn Marion, similar skill-set and size, could easily be the #2 option on a championship team and he still has room to grow because he's an athlete unlike Moose.

Monroe is better than Leonard. Bigs who can get 16/10 will always make more than wings who are athletic and get 12/6. Hell look at Pekovic being offered 12 per and wanting 15. Says all you need to know about bigs who can play.

Good post bro...+1

[DetroitDon15]

Monroe isn't really on the block but he should be. He isn't as good as Jefferson and likely never will be, nobody is building a team around him that's just silly.

Leonard looks to me to be the next Shawn Marion, similar skill-set and size, could easily be the #2 option on a championship team and he still has room to grow because he's an athlete unlike Moose.

Monroe is better than Leonard. Bigs who can get 16/10 will always make more than wings who are athletic and get 12/6. Hell look at Pekovic being offered 12 per and wanting 15. Says all you need to know about bigs who can play.

Good post bro...+1

Thanks Jodi. I just get sick of everyone saying Monroe sucks cause the Pistons suck. I don't see those people saying the same about Kevin Love. I'm not saying Monroe is better than Love but I mean bad teams have good players.

[sc8581]

Monroe isn't really on the block but he should be. He isn't as good as Jefferson and likely never will be, nobody is building a team around him that's just silly.

Leonard looks to me to be the next Shawn Marion, similar skill-set and size, could easily be the #2 option on a championship team and he still has room to grow because he's an athlete unlike Moose.

Monroe is better than Leonard. Bigs who can get 16/10 will always make more than wings who are athletic and get 12/6. Hell look at Pekovic being offered 12 per and wanting 15. Says all you need to know about bigs who can play.

Leonard will average more points than he did last year, that should be obvious to everyone. He averaged 14ppg in the second half of last season, 13.5ppg in the playoffs on .545% shooting and .390% from 3 and 1.8 steals plus he is a very good defender. Monroe will take a big hit in rebounds and likely points as well so your argument is basically garbage.

[DetroitDon15]

Monroe isn't really on the block but he should be. He isn't as good as Jefferson and likely never will be, nobody is building a team around him that's just silly.

Leonard looks to me to be the next Shawn Marion, similar skill-set and size, could easily be the #2 option on a championship team and he still has room to grow because he's an athlete unlike Moose.

Monroe is better than Leonard. Bigs who can get 16/10 will always make more than wings who are athletic and get 12/6. Hell look at Pekovic being offered 12 per and wanting 15. Says all you need to know about bigs who can play.

Leonard will average more points than he did last year, that should be obvious to everyone. He averaged 14ppg in the second half of last season, 13.5ppg in the playoffs on .545% shooting and .390% from 3 and 1.8 steals plus he is a very good defender. Monroe will take a big hit in rebounds and likely points as well so your argument is basically garbage.

Knight was a terrible point guard and awful in the pick in roll. His assists rate was extremely low. Monroe is good at getting put back and being active on the offensive end. With a guy like Jennings who can work the pick and roll well, Monroe will be a lot better taking small 4s fdown in the post. I expect the same amount of points per game this season if not more. Monroe won't see many doubles at all. Overall offense should be up while scoring should remain flat on Monroe's end. Your argument is basically garbage.

[ComboGuardCity]

I don't think any of us are saying build a team around Leonard. Leonard is not even a great player yet but he is a perfect fit for the Spurs system and hopefully keeps getting better and better.

I like Monroe(I've said it a couple of times now) but there are 3 problems with him. 1)he is not a good fit for us with Splitter and Duncan. 2) I think Detroiters overrate him something crazy. 3) He is going to be looking for a max contract next year.
He is not a good defender.
He is a marginal rebounder.
Yes he can score in the post somewhat if the person who is guarding him is equally un-athletic.

I love Monroe's work ethic and hustle most of the time. Maybe it's because he was on a bad team, but I also saw him quit on plays several times a game. (Watch the video of Brandon Knight getting dunked on against the Clippers last year for an example). I would consider Monroe for Splitter pretty much a lateral move. He is a slightly better player than Splitter IMO because he is younger and a little better scorer, but he will command more than 2x what Splitter makes next year which cancels that out. Also, giving up Leonard would leave a giant hole for the Spurs to fill.

1. Duncan has maybe 2 years left.
2. Monroe is a marginal rebounder? He has a better rebounding rate than Lee, Kanter, Jefferson, Millsap, Horford, Amir Johnson, Griffin, Hibbert, Gortat. Are those guys all "marginal" rebounders.
3. Splitter makes 9mill. Monroe will make a max of 14. And Monroe is definitely more than slightly better than Splitter. Splitter is an average NBA starting big man. Monroe is an all star caliber player.

[Durins Baynes]

If Monroe was an all-star, you wouldn't be trading him. If he's an all-star in the future, it's a marginal one at best. He's not a guy you can build around. Pointing out the fact that he is "a big" is basically irrelevant, because the attributes that make bigs better to build around (in general) are almost absent from his game. It would be like saying Amare or Al Jefferson are good players to build around, because they're big. Monroe's faults are slightly different to those 2 guys of course; he's a better passer than Jefferson (but a worse low post scorer), and a better passer than Amare (but way less athletic and a worse scorer), but all in all the proposition is the same even if Monroe does pan out.

[ComboGuardCity]

If Monroe was an all-star, you wouldn't be trading him. If he's an all-star in the future, it's a marginal one at best. He's not a guy you can build around. Pointing out the fact that he is "a big" is basically irrelevant, because the attributes that make bigs better to build around (in general) are almost absent from his game. It would be like saying Amare or Al Jefferson are good players to build around, because they're big. Monroe's faults are slightly different to those 2 guys of course; he's a better passer than Jefferson (but a worse low post scorer), and a better passer than Amare (but way less athletic and a worse scorer), but all in all the proposition is the same even if Monroe does pan out.

So you can build around Leonard? Check out a contender built around a 3 the past 20 years and find one that Leonard compares to. Report back.

[Durins Baynes]

I'm not sure the Spurs can build a contender around Kawhi, it'll probably need to be more like Denver the past few years- a deep team of balanced players who make some noise, and get by off great chemistry and ball movement, but can't win a title unless they find a way to get more talent. That's not really the point though- my point is that you can't claim Monroe has some favoured status over Kawhi because of his size, when in reality you can't build a team around Monroe either (and I like the chances of Kawhi being a player you can build around a heck of a lot more than Monroe to be honest).

[Pharaoh]

Leonard will average more points than he did last year, that should be obvious to everyone. He averaged 14ppg in the second half of last season, 13.5ppg in the playoffs on .545% shooting and .390% from 3 and 1.8 steals plus he is a very good defender. Monroe will take a big hit in rebounds and likely points as well so your argument is basically garbage

You're assuming that Leonard's numbers either hold or improve across the board this season while at the same time claiming that Monroe's will take a big hit... you're assuming this is fact in order to support what?

That Leonard is a quality player? As you can tell many Piston fans already agree that he's a quality player.

Is it a question of where he "ranks" at his position league-wide? That comes down to personal preference, regardless of what anyone else will say. One guy might think Paul George is a better SF than Leonard, some might want to argue Batum is, some might argue that Iggy is, or Paul Pierce is... it comes down to what you as a fan value most.

Some will argue defense is the #1 thing, some will argue it's versatility, some will argue for leadership, some will claim points or advanced stats... beauty is in the eye of the beholder my friend....

If Monroe was an all-star, you wouldn't be trading him.

We're not trading him!

You're claiming we're trading him based on posts you've read on Real GM and other fan forums! You're not basing it on fact.

If he's an all-star in the future, it's a marginal one at best. He's not a guy you can build around. Pointing out the fact that he is "a big" is basically irrelevant, because the attributes that make bigs better to build around (in general) are almost absent from his game. It would be like saying Amare or Al Jefferson are good players to build around, because they're big.

Poor comparison there, considering that Minnesota built around Jefferson and then Utah followed suit. The Suns also built around Amare to a certain extent, using Marbury and Marion as complimentary pieces. Yeah, they traded Marbury for Nash but Amare was still the central piece to that puzzle.

And if you were meaning the Jefferson and Amare of today... really? Monroe is 23 years old!

Monroe's faults are slightly different to those 2 guys of course; he's a better passer than Jefferson (but a worse low post scorer), and a better passer than Amare (but way less athletic and a worse scorer), but all in all the proposition is the same even if Monroe does pan out.

It might be the same proposition depending on how Monroe pans out.... but what you fail to acknowledge is that TWO teams built around Jefferson (Minny and Utah) and the Suns built around Amare and used TWO different PGs to try and make it work!

That alone tells you that franchises will try and try again with quality bigs.

Ain't nobody building a 50 win team around Leonard, as much as everyone here likes him and his potential

I fail to understand the importance of this thread. Leonard is a quality player... Spurs are not trading him. Monroe is a quality big man... Pistons are not trading him. I am enjoying the thread though. Not a single person can state for the record that Leonard is a player you can build a franchise around.

Yet the fact remains teams consistently build around quality big man and the fact remains unless you have an other worldly guard on your roster you need at least 1 quality big to contend!

Unless someone wants to dispute these facts I believe my work here is done

[MrBigShot]

Leonard will average more points than he did last year, that should be obvious to everyone. He averaged 14ppg in the second half of last season, 13.5ppg in the playoffs on .545% shooting and .390% from 3 and 1.8 steals plus he is a very good defender. Monroe will take a big hit in rebounds and likely points as well so your argument is basically garbage.

You use vague phrases like "big hit" and "more" and you have the audacity to say his argument is garbage? Ok.

I'm not sure the Spurs can build a contender around Kawhi, it'll probably need to be more like Denver the past few years- a deep team of balanced players who make some noise, and get by off great chemistry and ball movement, but can't win a title unless they find a way to get more talent. That's not really the point though- my point is that you can't claim Monroe has some favoured status over Kawhi because of his size, when in reality you can't build a team around Monroe either (and I like the chances of Kawhi being a player you can build around a heck of a lot more than Monroe to be honest).

Neither of them are guys you build around. Neither of them are superstar, top 10 players in this league, and the chances that they become that good are slim. If you're expecting Leonard to become the face of the franchise, good luck. Generally speaking though, it's historically proven that starting inside-out is better.

The reality is that we don't value Monroe because we want to "build around him", rather...we want to build a balanced team where every member of the starting lineup can hold their own, and we want him to be apart of that. He's a high bball IQ guy and an excellent passer. He will fit whatever we run. We don't NEED to build around Monroe, we've got Smith/Jennings/KCP who could all turn out to be good starters who make a few all star teams before it's all said and done, and Andre Drummond who is the guy we would build around, if anything.

Like I said before, guys with Leonard's skill set are more common than guys with Monroe's skill set in this league.

[Durins Baynes]

You're assuming that Leonard's numbers either hold or improve across the board this season while at the same time claiming that Monroe's will take a big hit... you're assuming this is fact in order to support what?

Kawhi is being clearly held back by the fact he is on a contender who doesn't need him to do as much. However it's not difficult to catch glimpses of what he can do when given the chance. Like in the finals when we finally started to see the leash taken off a little, or in the Bulls game without the big 3, etc. There's a reason to believe 21 year old Kawhi will improve. Will it be enough to lead a team? I don't know, but Pop thinks so, and that's enough for me to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

On the other hand Monroe has played on a bad team who will give him all the minutes and shots he likes, where he is not constrained as Kawhi has been.

The result has been pretty clear. Monroe looks like a good player in the future, but one who is maybe a borderline all-star if he pans out. He's not the franchise big many hoped for, which is one reason people keep talking about trading him. If he had shown the sort of potential Drummond has for instance, nobody would really be talking about moving him. Drummond of course hasn't shown as much "skill" or "polish" as Kawhi or Monroe, but there's a reason most people rate him where they do.

Ain't nobody building a 50 win team around Leonard, as much as everyone here likes him and his potential

There have been plenty of 50 win teams whose best player has been as good as Kawhi projects to be.

Minnesota built around Jefferson and then Utah followed suit. The Suns also built around Amare to a certain extent, using Marbury and Marion as complimentary pieces. Yeah, they traded Marbury for Nash but Amare was still the central piece to that puzzle.

And it failed in both Minny and Utah. Where has building around such a player been successful? Amare certainly isn't the example, since Marion and Marbury are hardly throw ins, either is arguably as good or better than Amare (and that team won 44 games with those guys- they probably could have won more with peak Amare, but again given Amare is with two other guys of comparable value, and they still aren't a contender, it's irrelevant).

What is the contender that has been built around a player like Monroe as their best player? It doesn't exist. Talking about Monroe as an "inside-out" player is like talking about building around Al Jefferson or Amare because they're "inside out" players. It misses the point completely.

[Pharaoh]

Dude, you are completely missing the point!

The FACT is that franchises build around potential All-Star big men!

It doesn't matter if Monroe is an All-Star, what matters is how franchises value 23 year old skilled bigs that have All-Star potential.

You brought up Jefferson (and then Amare). TWO teams built around Jefferson under the assumption that this All-Star calibre big man could take them to promise land! TWO teams tried it... and failed! That doesn't mean no other team will try it again! Hello Charlotte!

Monroe is 23 years old! Let's assume he signs a MAX contract next off-season... when that expires he'll be 28-29 years old... even if we haven't built a winner around him by then some other team WILL take the chance that they can build a quality team around him!

You gave me Jefferson as the comparison - and look at his career! Young dude got dealt from Boston in a package to get KG. Minny tried to build a winner around him... they failed. Off to Utah he goes... where they surround him with more talent (Boozer, Deron)... and it failed... now he's off to Charlotte, where they hope he can be a central piece over the next 4 years... and he can get them to the playoffs!

THREE teams tried it (or are trying it) with Jefferson! THREE!

IF Monroe compares to Jefferson then that might be his future...

Can you name any teams that have built around what Leonard is? You're starting to make me dislike him! Right now he's the 3rd or 4th best player on a contender. Could he be "more"? Sure! He could be the best player on a Lotto team, or the 2nd best player on a playoff team... no one knows yet! Not you, not Pop, no me, not anyone!

You're trying to argue that what Leonard might become is better than what Monroe might become and that teams would value what Leonard might become more than what Monroe might become.

And you're wrong. I really don't wanna be rude but unless Leonard projects to be some other worldly swingman - and he doesn't - Monroe will always have more value in the league... look at Al Jefferson!

IF some fan boys don't think so doesn't make it true!

[Durins Baynes]

Dude, you are completely missing the point!

The FACT is that franchises build around potential All-Star big men!

No, smart franchises build around big men who possess certain skills that enable them to anchor their teams. Monroe, Al Jefferson and Amare are examples of players who do not possess these attributes, and who you would therefore not build around if you were smart (which the Spurs are). Pointing me to examples of teams who built their teams badly like the post-KG Wolves and saying "why not do what they did?" is like pointing to the 2003 Cavs and saying "who says Darius Miles can't be your point guard? The 2003 Cavs did it." To talk about building around Monroe is silly, because the comparisons for Monroe are all players who have historically failed to have teams built around them. Talking about all-star potential just ignores this rather important point (plus, how many all-star teams did Jefferson make? Monroe is at best a fringe all-star, not the sort of guy you build a team around. By that logic the Knicks should have built their team around David Lee).

THREE teams tried it (or are trying it) with Jefferson! THREE!

I'll point this out again- 2 teams tried it and failed, and a 3rd with notoriously poor management is "trying it" (not really, they have brought Al Jefferson over to sell the fans on their improvement, not because they have any real expectation Al Jefferson will be their franchise cornerstone going forward... if they thought that they wouldn't have gotten him on the market for comparatively little). Why should a smart team like the Spurs follow the mistakes of badly managed teams that have failed? I can't see any reason for it. Look, the Bucks are following the path of mediocrity- let's follow them too. Wait, the Pistons saved their cap space for Charlie V and Ben Gordon, let's offer them big contracts when they expire too! Just because it failed on all their previous teams, doesn't mean it'll fail again...

Can you name any teams that have built around what Leonard is? You're starting to make me dislike him! Right now he's the 3rd or 4th best player on a contender. Could he be "more"? Sure! He could be the best player on a Lotto team, or the 2nd best player on a playoff team... no one knows yet! Not you, not Pop, no me, not anyone!

I answered this question already. Denver last year- a team whose best player was Iggy (or maybe Ty Lawson) just won 57 games. They weren't real contenders, and I already flagged I doubt the Spurs could be real contenders with Kawhi as their best player even if he improves. But that's irrelevant, because he's being compared to a guy who you also can't build a contender around, and who looks like a worse player for mine.

[Pharaoh]

Hang on - so you're saying that becaause numerous teams build around big men with All-Star potential and they failed a smart team like the Spurs wouldn't do it?

Really?

Dude, where those franchises failed the Spurs would succeed! They're the smartest front office in the league. Pop is so smart he's gonna retire when Tim Duncan does!

The examples of teams building around guys like Monroe is a very long list and I can go all the way back to the early 90's (I'm old, my memory ain't what it used to be)

The examples of teams building around guys like Leonard are... Denver last season? Who else you got? Cause one could argue that Lawson is what they're building around. And that's a flawed plan since he's not an other worldly guard

The facts I've stated time and time agin in this thread you haven't disputed! Regardless of how we as fans view Monroe and Leonard the fact is NBA teams value skilled big men higher than they value guys like Leonard.

I'm not saying that's right, I'm saying that historically that's how it goes.

You really can't argue since NBA teams building around bigs with All-Star potential has been hapening since God was a boy!

So just stop. Please! Otherwise you'll end up making me hate Leonard. I don't want that! I love the kid, think he's awesome, think he could become a special kind of player, a player I'd happily have on any roster I could construct. Do I view Monroe the same way? Not really! But this isn't about what I believe, or what you believe.

This is about what NBA teams believe - for as long as I can remember guys like Monroe are more valued than guys like Leonard. That is undisputed!

[zeebneeb]

Monroe isn't really on the block but he should be. He isn't as good as Jefferson and likely never will be, nobody is building a team around him that's just silly.

Leonard looks to me to be the next Shawn Marion, similar skill-set and size, could easily be the #2 option on a championship team and he still has room to grow because he's an athlete unlike Moose.

I'm not a fan of your posting style, at all. Kind of aggressive for seemingly no reason, with a lot of declarative statements, when your using razor thin logic to back up said claims.

I do have a question though;

In what universe is Monroe not as good as Jefferson?

Is it the 1.8 PPG less he averages? The better defense?

You do know(I always assume people do a touch of research before saying things in a post. Perhaps I am mistaken in that)that Jefferson really exploded in his FOURTH year, correct? Monroe is just now entering his fourth year. Is it perhaps to early to say that he will NEVER be as good as Jefferson? That seems a touch weird to me, seeing as how you obviously gave Jefferson until his 4th year.

Monroe does things very few bigmen can. Combined with Drummond, its a very nice fit.

I really don't understand why you believe Monroe should be on the block as well. For what? Only thing I would move him for is an outstanding SG. Even then I would hesitate, and see how the big three pan out first. You don't blow "it" up before "it" even has a chance to shine, or crumble.