No Cade, no one cares apparently. Wolves/Pistons 3:30

[Manocad]

He has been in the league for 2 years and has hardly shown any improvement. Listen, I understand you all are very emotional about Hayes and don't want to accept facts. If you want to continue to have hope in him then fine. I seriously hope you are right and would be very happy. However, I DON'T have any confidence in him based on everything I have seen. I am not trying to force you to give up blind up. I am just saying I prefer to find a better guard to go with Cade in the backcourt at this point. Sorry if that upsets you. I am getting Stanley Johnson vibes from Hayes at this point. All the potential and no improvement.

Agreed man....the kid hasn't figured it out in 67 games (despite being probably the best perimeter defender and best passer on the team) so he's definitely a dud. Should probably waive him at this point.

Based on what I have seen I believe he is a dud. I hope I am wrong. Again, you can continue to have hope in him. Sorry if that opinion offends you.

The only person who appears to be offended here is you because of the criticism of Grant. But at least we criticized Grant during a bad game.

[MotorCade2]

And a lot of us aren't silly enough to think that Grant won't continue to push his "I'm the #1 option"/iso ball agenda which is why defenses collapse on him and render him an inefficient scorer. The difference is you picked THIS GAME to criticize Hayes as bad when he had a really good game, while those of us criticizing Grant are doing so in a game he deserved to be criticized for, and for doing the same things he's always done.

Dude, stopping ignoring what I am saying just because you are wrong. I already said Hayes had a great game. I am not criticizing him based on this game. I was just talking about Hayes in general and I have made that very clear already. He played great today. He has been pure hot garbage almost every other game.

Stop ignoring what I, and many others, have been saying just because you're wrong. Grant wanting to be here doesn't mean that he should be allowed to play the way he wants to play even if it's detrimental to the team, and that we as fans should overlook it. I'll use your same logic--it's not just this game causing us to criticize Grant. It's this one on top of many others, even before Cade came along.

And don't forget that Weaver announced right off the bat when he signed Grant that it's possible he could be flipped as a trade asset. At no time did Weaver ever explicitly state or even imply that Grant was a long term part of the Pistons future so we all just needed to suck it up. So we're not sucking it up. Some of think the best thing moving forward since Cade is clearly the building block of this team is to move on from Grant.

I am actually open to trading Grant as well. I never said he is untouchable. I just said I wouldn't trade him unless we are getting a young starter back or a high pick. I have watched Grant play just as much as you. Sometimes he takes bad shots but many times he gets totally unfounded criticism like today. Literally no matter what he does the emotional Grant haters will call him a blackhole or point out only the bad things he does. Its truly ridiculous. Today was a perfect example. He was being called selfish when he took only 11 shots as our top scorer and had 5 assists. Its total nonsense. When he plays like a blackhole I will give the same criticism.

[zeebneeb]

Interesting. We have a new one busting Hayes chops, and defending Grant's iso ball. Spicy.

Hayes deserves to have his chops busted. I liked the pick when we drafted him too but lets not deny reality. He is straight trash. If you want to continue to have hope in him then that is fine. To each their own. Grant is one of the most coveted players on the draft market for a reason. Emotional Pistons fans just cant except when one of their draft picks sucks or when they want a new shiny toy for Grant instead of holding onto a sure thing who wants to be here.

That, is called a deflection.

[thesack12]

Last time I checked, rebounding was part of doing "everything on the court." On average, Jerami Grant is the worst rebounder of the 5 Pistons regular starters. He's also worse than Trey Lyles, who plays 13 less minutes per game than Grant.

Grant is a terrible rebounder for a PF.

Also "on average" Grant has the 7th most Assists per game on the team, despite taking the most shots per game and having the highest usage on the team.

Grant also has quite poor shooting percentages, despite taking so many shots (41 FG%, 34 3PT%.)

Yeah he could rebound better. I don't care about how many assists he is having honestly. He is a willing passer and that is what matters but his main job is scoring. Everyone has their role. Virtually everyone on our team has putrid percentages. Grant's are actually better then most of our best players. The dude isn't an MVP candidate for crying out loud but he is one of the most versatile two-way players in the NBA. He is borderline allstar that defends. That isn't something to crap on. If we get another star player to pair with Cade in this draft and we use our capspace to add another major piece then Grant is the PERFECT 3rd or 4th guy you want on a winning team.

You don't care about assists, yet you claim "on average Grant does everything on the court?" Well that's a pretty convenient moving of the goal posts you did there.

Please enlighten me how Grant is a borderline all star and one of the most versatile 2 way players in the league. Besides your own personal opinion, what are you basing this on?

By the way, The Pistons have scored an average of 105.2 points a game without Grant, and exactly 100.0 points per game with him. With Grant Pistons are shooting 40.8 FG% and 31.5 3PT%, without him they are shooting 43.4FG % and 32.7 3PT%.

In other words the Pistons are playing better without Jerami Grant in the lineup.

[MotorCade2]

The only person who appears to be offended here is you because of the criticism of Grant. But at least we criticized Grant during a bad game.

I made one post and like 3 or 4 people jumped right on me with snarky comments. I have had to suffer reading your broken record posts since using RealGM as a source. I might just block you now and make my experience on RealGM infinitely more palatable. You just never stop man. You just keep arguing the most ridiculous obnoxious stuff.

[Manocad]

I gave up on Killian last season, didn't watch much Detroit this year, but with an euro friendly game I tuned into 2nd half. And what a surprise, he looked really good all round today.

As was said in the post game comments, hopefully this will be an awakening for Hayes. And maybe he was too scared to just go balls out before. Or maybe he was told to do it this game, and told not to before. I take it as a sign of hope rather than "Now doesn't matter. Too many other games in the past tell me he's still just trash." Which makes ZERO sense when you watch a player finally play in a way he's NEVER played before. And maybe he doesn't repeat the behavior. But the fact that he CAN play the way he did today is encouraging, not discouraging.

[Sort]

It's just a hard time to be a Piston fan right now. That to me explains some of the round and round posts on here. I watched a few minutes while cleaning the dishes, and glad the Pistons still giving an honest effort out there.

[Manocad]

The only person who appears to be offended here is you because of the criticism of Grant. But at least we criticized Grant during a bad game.

I made one post and like 3 or 4 people jumped right on me with snarky comments. I have had to suffer reading your broken record posts since using RealGM as a source. I might just block you now and make my experience on RealGM infinitely more palatable. You just never stop man. You just keep arguing the most ridiculous obnoxious stuff.

Block me. That's what the button is for.

It's not "snarky" to point out that you made a lousy argument; that's what we do here all the time. Like literally all day, every day. If that's a source of emotional distress for you then I can assure you that internet message boards may not be your cup of tea.

[MotorCade2]

Last time I checked, rebounding was part of doing "everything on the court." On average, Jerami Grant is the worst rebounder of the 5 Pistons regular starters. He's also worse than Trey Lyles, who plays 13 less minutes per game than Grant.

Grant is a terrible rebounder for a PF.

Also "on average" Grant has the 7th most Assists per game on the team, despite taking the most shots per game and having the highest usage on the team.

Grant also has quite poor shooting percentages, despite taking so many shots (41 FG%, 34 3PT%.)

Yeah he could rebound better. I don't care about how many assists he is having honestly. He is a willing passer and that is what matters but his main job is scoring. Everyone has their role. Virtually everyone on our team has putrid percentages. Grant's are actually better then most of our best players. The dude isn't an MVP candidate for crying out loud but he is one of the most versatile two-way players in the NBA. He is borderline allstar that defends. That isn't something to crap on. If we get another star player to pair with Cade in this draft and we use our capspace to add another major piece then Grant is the PERFECT 3rd or 4th guy you want on a winning team.

You don't care about assists, yet you claim "on average Grant does everything on the court?" Well that's a pretty convenient moving of the goal posts you did there.

Please enlighten me how Grant is a borderline all star and one of the most versatile 2 way players in the league. Besides your own personal opinion, what are you basing this on?

By the way, The Pistons have scored an average of 105.2 points a game without Grant, and exactly 100.0 points per game with him. With Grant Pistons are shooting 40.8 FG% and 31.5 3PT%, without him they are shooting 43.4FG % and 32.7 3PT%.

In other words the Pistons are playing better without Jerami Grant in the lineup.

Grant is a willing passer. I didn't say he is an elite playmaker or something. What I meant is that I am not looking at Grants assist numbers as metric for whether he is a good player or not. He is a scorer so I expect him to do that far more then playmake. However, he is a willing playmaker and that is the point I am making. He has been much better and keeping the ball moving.

[Manocad]

It's just a hard time to be a Piston fan right now. That to me explains some of the round and round posts on here. I watched a few minutes while cleaning the dishes, and glad the Pistons still giving an honest effort out there.

It was actually a pretty decent game to watch; better than a lot of others lately. It was competitive the whole game until the last couple of minutes, there weren't a ton of turnovers, Hayes had a good game, and they actually did some good things.

[MotorCade2]

It's just a hard time to be a Piston fan right now. That to me explains some of the round and round posts on here. I watched a few minutes while cleaning the dishes, and glad the Pistons still giving an honest effort out there.

I am actually excited to be a Pistons fan. I think Cade is going to be a star and we some other nice pieces and are probably looking at a top 4 pick and a max player to add. If we are smart we can turn things around quick. I like what Weaver has done.

[thesack12]

Yeah he could rebound better. I don't care about how many assists he is having honestly. He is a willing passer and that is what matters but his main job is scoring. Everyone has their role. Virtually everyone on our team has putrid percentages. Grant's are actually better then most of our best players. The dude isn't an MVP candidate for crying out loud but he is one of the most versatile two-way players in the NBA. He is borderline allstar that defends. That isn't something to crap on. If we get another star player to pair with Cade in this draft and we use our capspace to add another major piece then Grant is the PERFECT 3rd or 4th guy you want on a winning team.

You don't care about assists, yet you claim "on average Grant does everything on the court?" Well that's a pretty convenient moving of the goal posts you did there.

Please enlighten me how Grant is a borderline all star and one of the most versatile 2 way players in the league. Besides your own personal opinion, what are you basing this on?

By the way, The Pistons have scored an average of 105.2 points a game without Grant, and exactly 100.0 points per game with him. With Grant Pistons are shooting 40.8 FG% and 31.5 3PT%, without him they are shooting 43.4FG % and 32.7 3PT%.

In other words the Pistons are playing better without Jerami Grant in the lineup.

Grant is a willing passer. I didn't say he is an elite playmaker or something. What I meant is that I am not looking at Grants assist numbers as metric for whether he is a good player or not. He is a scorer so I expect him to do that far more then playmake. However, he is a willing playmaker and that is the point I am making. He has been much better and keeping the ball moving.

Well since didn't touch on anything else in my post other than assists, lets keep talking about assists.

With Grant Pistons average 21.5 APG, without Grant Pistons average 23.5 APG.

There sure is a very clear widespread pattern developing when the Pistons have Grant and when they don't have Grant.

[Manocad]

Dude, stopping ignoring what I am saying just because you are wrong. I already said Hayes had a great game. I am not criticizing him based on this game. I was just talking about Hayes in general and I have made that very clear already. He played great today. He has been pure hot garbage almost every other game.

Stop ignoring what I, and many others, have been saying just because you're wrong. Grant wanting to be here doesn't mean that he should be allowed to play the way he wants to play even if it's detrimental to the team, and that we as fans should overlook it. I'll use your same logic--it's not just this game causing us to criticize Grant. It's this one on top of many others, even before Cade came along.

And don't forget that Weaver announced right off the bat when he signed Grant that it's possible he could be flipped as a trade asset. At no time did Weaver ever explicitly state or even imply that Grant was a long term part of the Pistons future so we all just needed to suck it up. So we're not sucking it up. Some of think the best thing moving forward since Cade is clearly the building block of this team is to move on from Grant.

I am actually open to trading Grant as well. I never said he is untouchable. I just said I wouldn't trade him unless we are getting a young starter back or a high pick. I have watched Grant play just as much as you. Sometimes he takes bad shots but many times he gets totally unfounded criticism like today. Literally no matter what he does the emotional Grant haters will call him a blackhole or point out only the bad things he does. Its truly ridiculous. Today was a perfect example. He was being called selfish when he took only 11 shots as our top scorer and had 5 assists. Its total nonsense. When he plays like a blackhole I will give the same criticism.

You're literally doing the same thing you're criticizing people for. You're saying that Grant didn't deserve big picture criticism because he WASN'T a black hole on offense this game, but you called Hayes "straight trash" when he WASN'T this game. Can't play both sides, bro. If Hayes deserves big picture, straight trash criticism even though he had a good game today, then Grant deserves big picture offensive black hole, bogs the offense down criticism even if he didn't play that way today.

[Manocad]

You don't care about assists, yet you claim "on average Grant does everything on the court?" Well that's a pretty convenient moving of the goal posts you did there.

Please enlighten me how Grant is a borderline all star and one of the most versatile 2 way players in the league. Besides your own personal opinion, what are you basing this on?

By the way, The Pistons have scored an average of 105.2 points a game without Grant, and exactly 100.0 points per game with him. With Grant Pistons are shooting 40.8 FG% and 31.5 3PT%, without him they are shooting 43.4FG % and 32.7 3PT%.

In other words the Pistons are playing better without Jerami Grant in the lineup.

Grant is a willing passer. I didn't say he is an elite playmaker or something. What I meant is that I am not looking at Grants assist numbers as metric for whether he is a good player or not. He is a scorer so I expect him to do that far more then playmake. However, he is a willing playmaker and that is the point I am making. He has been much better and keeping the ball moving.

Well since didn't touch on anything else in my post other than assists, lets keep talking about assists.

With Grant Pistons average 21.5 APG, without Grant Pistons average 23.5 APG.

There sure is a very clear widespread pattern developing when the Pistons have Grant and when they don't have Grant.

You're being snarky.

[Manocad]

Hayes deserves to have his chops busted. I liked the pick when we drafted him too but lets not deny reality. He is straight trash. If you want to continue to have hope in him then that is fine. To each their own. Grant is one of the most coveted players on the draft market for a reason. Emotional Pistons fans just cant except when one of their draft picks sucks or when they want a new shiny toy for Grant instead of holding onto a sure thing who wants to be here.

Not this game.

Pick your spots better. Don't try to move the goalposts with "Well, yeah, he was good THIS GAME, but..." when obviously the impetus for bringing up the criticism of him was THIS GAME. It would be like popping into a game thread and talking about how Cade needs to take more control on offense, then when people say "Uh, dude--he's not playing," you say "Well, yeah, not THIS GAME, but..."

My goodness, you are a broken record man. I started talking about Hayes BEFORE he even started playing well. I have said 3 or 4 times now I am not criticizing how he played today. Let it go man and learn to comprehend simple posts. I shouldn't need to explain this 4 times to you.

And I shouldn't have to explain four times to you that after Hayes had a really good game it doesn't make sense to say "he has shown no signs of improvement." Having a really good game is a sign of improvement.

[MotorCade2]

Well since didn't touch on anything else in my post other than assists, lets keep talking about assists.

With Grant Pistons average 21.5 APG, without Grant Pistons average 23.5 APG.

There sure is a very clear widespread pattern developing when the Pistons have Grant and when they don't have Grant.

I understand your argument and those are valid points to bring up. I am sure there are plenty of other positive advanced stats for Grant too but these things are also way more complicated too. Our team is super young and all over the place and some of our best players like Cade and Bey are sub 40% shooters. I don't see Grant as a 1st option. I see him as a 3rd option. I think when he is in that role as an 18ppg scorer or so with an actual winning team that has more experience around him then he will be more productive. Again, you can disagree. That is fine. I just think most pistons fans are being really unfair towards him and just over the top. You would think he is absolute trash from reading this board.

[vege]

So hard to stay focused without Cade. I had this game on and never even looked up from my phone lol

Bey played well, it's something right? He was terrible on defense tho, but on offense and on the boards he was great. He even led our comeback in the 4th quarter hitting back to back 3's, after Olynyk and co gave Minny a 13 point lead in a few minutes.

[Manocad]

Well since didn't touch on anything else in my post other than assists, lets keep talking about assists.

With Grant Pistons average 21.5 APG, without Grant Pistons average 23.5 APG.

There sure is a very clear widespread pattern developing when the Pistons have Grant and when they don't have Grant.

I understand your argument and those are valid points to bring up. I am sure there are plenty of other positive advanced stats for Grant too but these things are also way more complicated too. Our team is super young and all over the place and some of our best players like Cade and Bey are sub 40% shooters. I don't see Grant as a 1st option. I see him as a 3rd option. I think when he is in that role as an 18ppg scorer or so with an actual winning team that has more experience around him then he will be more productive. Again, you can disagree. That is fine. I just think most pistons fans are being really unfair towards him and just over the top. You would think he is absolute trash from reading this board.

Then he needs to start playing like a 3rd option and not a #1 option. And I don't think many people on this board would argue that if Grant can do that, they'd still want him gone.

[Manocad]

So hard to stay focused without Cade. I had this game on and never even looked up from my phone lol

Bey played well, it's something right? He was terrible on defense tho, but on offense and on the boards he was great. He even led our comeback in the 4th quarter hitting back to back 3's, after Olynyk and co gave Minny a 13 point lead in a few minutes.

Bey's defense is REALLY becoming a sore spot for me. And admittedly, I may be keeping more of an eagle eye on him than other players but it's not just ability; he definitely falls victim to taking a play off/lack of effort lapses. Those are the ones that drive me nuts.

[thesack12]

Well since didn't touch on anything else in my post other than assists, lets keep talking about assists.

With Grant Pistons average 21.5 APG, without Grant Pistons average 23.5 APG.

There sure is a very clear widespread pattern developing when the Pistons have Grant and when they don't have Grant.

I understand your argument and those are valid points to bring up. I am sure there are plenty of other positive advanced stats for Grant too but these things are also way more complicated too. Our team is super young and all over the place and some of our best players like Cade and Bey are sub 40% shooters. I don't see Grant as a 1st option. I see him as a 3rd option. I think when he is in that role as an 18ppg scorer or so with an actual winning team that has more experience around him then he will be more productive. Again, you can disagree. That is fine. I just think most pistons fans are being really unfair towards him and just over the top. You would think he is absolute trash from reading this board.

Then he needs to start playing like a 3rd option and not a #1 option. And I don't think many people on this board would argue that if Grant can do that, they'd still want him gone.

Exactly, this is the conundrum.

Grant takes the most shots AND has the highest usage on the team. That by every definition is being the #1 option for a team.

The whole if he becomes the 3rd option argument, has a few potential problems involved with it.

1) We have no evidence that Grant will be able to do more blending in and less volume scoring.
2) Detroit still needs to get a bonafide #2 option, there are no guarantees they get one in the near future.
3) Grant only has 1.5 years left on his contract. How willing is Detroit to pay him up to $30 mil season while they are probably still a cellar dweller of a team. Also $30 mil/season is pretty expensive for a 3rd option type of player, unless you are a legitimate contender.