Comparing Knight to other slow starters at PG.

[jaredtyshaf]

Knight is half way through his second season (First full season with a training camp) and his stats are obviously not where a starting PG's should be. Many people on here simply want to give up on him, but I want remind you all that it is not rare for PG's to start off slow. It is the hardest position in the NBA to learn and evidence proves that it can take young PG's years to master it.

Knight's Stats up to now

1st: GP(66) GS (60) Min (32.3) Pts (12.8) Ast (3.8) FG% (.415) 3P% (.380)
2nd (Present): GP(54) GS (54) Min (31.5) Pts (13.5) Ast (4.3) FG% (.404) 3P% (.354)

Here are some other slow starters that hit their stride after being given an opportunity "grow" at the position.

Chauncey

1st: GP(80) GS (70) Min (27.7) Pts (11.2) Ast (3.9) FG% (.374) 3P% (.329)
2nd: GP(45) GS (41) Min (33.1) Pts (13.9) Ast (3.8) FG% (.386) 3P% (.362)
3rd: Wash (Only played 13 games)
4th: GP(77) GS (33) Min (23.2) Pts (9.3) Ast (3.4) FG% (.422) 3P% (.376)
5th: GP(82) GS (54) Min (28.7) Pts (12.5) Ast (3.8) FG% (.423) 3P% (.394)
6th: GP(74) GS (74) Min (31.4) Pts (16.2) Ast (3.9) FG% (.421) 3P% (.392)
7th: GP(78) GS (78) Min (35.4) Pts (16.9) Ast (5.7) FG% (.394) 3P% (.388)

Rondo

1st: GP(78) GS (25) Min (23.5) Pts (6.4) Ast (3.8) FG% (.418) 3P% (.207)
2nd: GP(77) GS (77) Min (29.9) Pts (10.6) Ast (5.1) FG% (.492) 3P% (.263)
3rd: GP(80) GS (80) Min (33.0) Pts (11.9) Ast (8.2) FG% (.505) 3P% (.313)
4th: GP(81) GS (81) Min (36.6) Pts (13.7) Ast (9.8) FG% (.508) 3P% (.213)

Jrue Holiday

1st: GP(73) GS (51) Min (24.2) Pts (8.0) Ast (3.8) FG% (.442) 3P% (.390)
2nd: GP(82) GS (82) Min (35.4) Pts (14.0) Ast (6.5) FG% (.446) 3P% (.365)
3rd: GP(65) GS (65) Min (33.8) Pts (13.5) Ast (4.5) FG% (.432) 3P% (.380)
4th (Present): GP(47) GS (47) Min (38.3) Pts (19.0) Ast (8.9) FG% (.452) 3P% (.353)

Ty Lawson

1st: GP(65) GS (8) Min (20.3) Pts (8.3) Ast (3.1) FG% (.515) 3P% (.410)
2nd: GP(80) GS (31) Min (26.3) Pts (11.7) Ast (4.7) FG% (.503) 3P% (.404)
3rd: GP(61) GS (61) Min (34.8) Pts (16.4) Ast (6.6) FG% (.488) 3P% (.365)
4th (Present): GP(53) GS (52) Min (34.8) Pts (15.8) Ast (7.1) FG% (.445) 3P% (.382)


Trend here is that it usually takes 3 seasons for a young raw PG to develop into a NBA PG. Billups is the exception and shows what can happen if teams give up to early on a young PG. It took him 7 seasons to reach his full potential because every team kept giving up on him to quick and he had start over on a new team every year.

All these players were tweeners coming out of college and needed time to develop their skills at PG. They were all also oozing with potential (like Knight) and flourished when a team actually gave them time to develop. This data really sells me on developing Knight and at least giving him the next 2 years to develop before we give up on him.

[Cowology]

Yep, some players take off right away but that tends to be more the exception than the rule. PG is probably the hardest position to learn and can take years to really learn. With players entering the league at even younger ages it's becoming even more difficult. I am willing to be patient with Knight. He might never get it, but we're invested in him. Give him a chance to repay that investment.

But even though I'd not personally look to move him since he's still got some time left on his rookie deal, I wouldn't consider him untouchable. If he was part of a bigger package for an impact player or somebody wanted to give up crazy good value for him I'd take it.

[DCintheD]

only morons on this board wanna give up on Knight so soon. Dumars will not so it doesn't matter what those idiots think.

[jaredtyshaf]

Yep, some players take off right away but that tends to be more the exception than the rule. PG is probably the hardest position to learn and can take years to really learn. With players entering the league at even younger ages it's becoming even more difficult. I am willing to be patient with Knight. He might never get it, but we're invested in him. Give him a chance to repay that investment.

But even though I'd not personally look to move him since he's still got some time left on his rookie deal, I wouldn't consider him untouchable. If he was part of a bigger package for an impact player or somebody wanted to give up crazy good value for him I'd take it.

Obviously if we can get a young star with Knight as the center piece we'd have to do it, but I don't see that happening.

[ChipButty]

Picking and choosing 4 examples from the last 15 years and calling it a trend makes no sense. Plus, Ty Lawson and Rondo were never tweeners. Why not use Antonio Daniels, Mateen Cleaves, Marcus Banks, Acie Law, Stuckey, Jonny Flynn, and Jimmer Fredette as examples?

There are way more examples of top 10 picks showing ability almost immediately (Mike Bibby, Jason Williams, Steve Francis, Baron Davis, Andre Miller, Kirk Hinrich, Deron Williams, CP3, Felton, Rose, Westbrook, Curry, Wall, Irving, Lillard) than there are slow developers eventually becoming stars. You either have it, or you don't and it usually shows early on.

Jrue Holiday showed way more in his 2nd year than Knight has so far. You can bitch and moan all you want, but there was zero evidence that starting knight at PG was helping him develop.

November 5.6 APG
December 3.8 APG
January 3.5 APG

Compare that to Holiday's 2nd season (who was shooting 44%):

November 7.9 APG
December 5.8 APG
January 6.8 APG

No comparison. This is a business with real money on the line. Knight was regressing and deserved to lose the starting job. If he wants it back he needs to play better and earn it.

[jaredtyshaf]

Picking and choosing 4 examples from the last 15 years and calling it a trend makes no sense. Plus, Ty Lawson and Rondo were never tweeners. Why not use Antonio Daniels, Mateen Cleaves, Marcus Banks, Acie Law, Stuckey, Jonny Flynn, and Jimmer Fredette as examples?

There are way more examples of top 10 picks showing ability almost immediately (Mike Bibby, Jason Williams, Steve Francis, Baron Davis, Andre Miller, Kirk Hinrich, Deron Williams, CP3, Felton, Rose, Westbrook, Curry, Wall, Irving, Lillard) than there are slow developers eventually becoming stars. You either have it, or you don't and it usually shows early on.

Jrue Holiday showed way more in his 2nd year than Knight has so far. You can bitch and moan all you want, but there was zero evidence that starting knight at PG was helping him develop.

November 5.6 APG
December 3.8 APG
January 3.5 APG

Compare that to Holiday's 2nd season (who was shooting 44%):

November 7.9 APG
December 5.8 APG
January 6.8 APG

No comparison. This is a business with real money on the line. Knight was regressing and deserved to lose the starting job. If he wants it back he needs to play better and earn it.

I gave 4 examples of players who have a similar skill set to Knight. Obviously Knight could be bust, but to say we know what type of player he is gonna turn into is just ignorant.

[Scout Taron]

Rondo is in no way close to Knight at all.

Lawson is guy who always has relentlessly attacked the rim and finished with amazing efficiency (not as much this year). Not as nearly dependent on his jumper as Knight is.

Holiday has always been steps ahead of Knight as a passer.

Billups is a decent comparison as a player, but I'm not waiting 7 years for Knight not to suck.

[theBigLip]

Agree with Cow and what I posted in other threads - he is certainly not untouchable. Worst case he is our backup at both guard spots. Best case he figures things out and is our long term PG. But if we can get a really good wing player that will permanently fill our SG or SF positions, I'd trade him in a second.

[Warspite]

Im sure when/if Drummond becomes an offensive force and when we get a good SG that suddenly Knight will turn the corner and become a great PG.


I dont think Isiah Thomas could get 8apg with this team as it currently stands.



I keep looking at Trey Burke and Keith Appling. Both of them are having great yrs but I think Tim HardawayJR and Gary Harris are 2 of the bigger reasons why they look so much better. I dont think NBA Trey Burke will ever be much better than NBA Mateen Cleaves but he looks great so far.

[Warspite]

Im sure when/if Drummond becomes an offensive force and when we get a good SG that suddenly Knight will turn the corner and become a great PG.


I dont think Isiah Thomas could get 8apg with this team as it currently stands.



I keep looking at Trey Burke and Keith Appling. Both of them are having great yrs but I think Tim HardawayJR and Gary Harris are 2 of the bigger reasons why they look so much better. I dont think NBA Trey Burke will ever be much better than NBA Mateen Cleaves but he looks great so far.

[Jodi]

Knight will begin to blossom when we get talent at the 2 and 3 spot...Jrue and Billups are perfect examples...I don't think Jrue ever had veteran leadership at the PG position though, he figured it out himself...I was hoping Knight would be able to do the same...

[Goldtop]

Im sure when/if Drummond becomes an offensive force and when we get a good SG that suddenly Knight will turn the corner and become a great PG.


I dont think Isiah Thomas could get 8apg with this team as it currently stands.

I don't want to get into a whole debate about this and sound like I'm hating on Knight, but just wanted to point out that Calderon is avg 8 apg with this team, with no Drummond at all.

[ChipButty]

I gave 4 examples of players who have a similar skill set to Knight. Obviously Knight could be bust, but to say we know what type of player he is gonna turn into is just ignorant.

Dude, Lawson and Rondo did not have a similar skill set to Knight. Lawson was a true PG with great court vision and Rondo was a pass first PG with great D and a terrible shot. Holiday showed way more in his 2nd year than Knight has. Plus none of these guys were lottery picks. They were expected to develop at a slower pace.

You said "This data really sells me on developing Knight and at least giving him the next 2 years to develop before we give up on him."

Why 2 years? That wouldn't have been long enough for Billups. Why do you think Knight is the next Billups and not the next Jason Terry?

What evidence is there to suggest Knight will become a star PG? I never said I know how Knight will develop. I said your data is flawed and stars often demonstrate their potential very early in their careers. I gave you a list of 15 PG's drafted in the top 10 to demonstrate this. I showed you Knights stats that indicate he was regressing. If you want to argue my post and call me ignorant, you should tell me which part of it you disagree with.

We have the money/flexibility to build a competitive playoff team around Monroe and Drummond next year. We need to start winning and selling seats at The Palace. What part of this business reality do you not understand? Knight isn't ready to be a starting PG and there is no evidence that starting him at PG was helping him. He deserved to lose his job as starting PG. If he wants it back, he needs to play better. Nobody has given up on him. He's still a starter on the Detroit Pistons.

[c-dot]

Instead of making excuses for Knight and hating on Jose, why can't people just admit BK needs to step his game up, period. He won the starting PG job by default and is one of the worst if not the worst starting PG in the league. Now people want to hate on Joe, Frank and Jose because Jose is a much better PG? Why don't you start hating on Knight for not stepping his game up? Its always some one else fault Knight plays bad, I guess we need to surround him around all-stars and a hall of fame coach then let him mature 5 years for him to look impressive.

[jaredtyshaf]

I gave 4 examples of players who have a similar skill set to Knight. Obviously Knight could be bust, but to say we know what type of player he is gonna turn into is just ignorant.

Dude, Lawson and Rondo did not have a similar skill set to Knight. Lawson was a true PG with great court vision and Rondo was a pass first PG with great D and a terrible shot. Holiday showed way more in his 2nd year than Knight has. Plus none of these guys were lottery picks. They were expected to develop at a slower pace.

You said "This data really sells me on developing Knight and at least giving him the next 2 years to develop before we give up on him."

Why 2 years? That wouldn't have been long enough for Billups. Why do you think Knight is the next Billups and not the next Jason Terry?

What evidence is there to suggest Knight will become a star PG? I never said I know how Knight will develop. I said your data is flawed and stars often demonstrate their potential very early in their careers. I gave you a list of 15 PG's drafted in the top 10 to demonstrate this. I showed you Knights stats that indicate he was regressing. If you want to argue my post and call me ignorant, you should tell me which part of it you disagree with.

We have the money/flexibility to build a competitive playoff team around Monroe and Drummond next year. We need to start winning and selling seats at The Palace. What part of this business reality do you not understand? Knight isn't ready to be a starting PG and there is no evidence that starting him at PG was helping him. He deserved to lose his job as starting PG. If he wants it back, he needs to play better. Nobody has given up on him. He's still a starter on the Detroit Pistons.

Good Lord! No player is exactly the same, so obviously Knight isn't exactly like the aforementioned players. However to say that they are nothing alike is false. All those PG's I listed had major question marks coming into the NBA, but all of them also had a lot of potential (like Knight does). Obviously none of them had it all figured out or they would have been top 3 picks.

All I am saying is that PG takes time to develop in many cases and I feel it is to early to classify Knight as a bust or role player. He is still on his rookie contract for the next couple years and why not figure out exactly what we have before dumping him? His ceiling is to high to give up on him and his floor isn't so low that he would be a useless player if he never became a star.

[pistontr]

Im sure when/if Drummond becomes an offensive force and when we get a good SG that suddenly Knight will turn the corner and become a great PG.


I dont think Isiah Thomas could get 8apg with this team as it currently stands.

I don't want to get into a whole debate about this and sound like I'm hating on Knight, but just wanted to point out that Calderon is avg 8 apg with this team, with no Drummond at all.

[Brapman]

Unless the Pistons find themselves able to add a known quality superstar PG to replace Calderon and Knight, I'm very happy to give Knight two more seasons (i.e., his contract term) to develop. PG's take time to develop, and Brandon has excellent talent and athletic ability, a high IQ and work ethic, and now a coach on the floor in Calderon, to develop. I love his aggressiveness as a player.

We've got a very good chance to see him develop into a big time player since he's on a team that's been built to grow up together. IMO, we're lucky we have a player who could become as good as Knight can become.

[ComboGuardCity]

I think Knight picks it up after the all star break. Loved how he went right back at Kyrie.

[Pharaoh]

I am starting to wonder what people want from Knight

Is there a certain statistical output he must reach for people to stop complaining about him?

OR

Is there a certain skill he needs to demonstrate consistently for people to stop complaining about him?

[pistontr]

I am starting to wonder what people want from Knight

Is there a certain statistical output he must reach for people to stop complaining about him?

OR

Is there a certain skill he needs to demonstrate consistently for people to stop complaining about him?

let's see some certain statistical outputs.

he is 49th in assists-turnover ratio among the point guards.

he is 30th in FG% among the point guards.

he is 34th in FT% among the point guards.

he is 37th in steals among the point guards.

he is 27th in 3P% among the point guards.

he is 53rd in PER among the point guards.

he is 48th in TS% among the point guards.