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On ESPN first take he said Magic (obvious), Kidd (hmm...), Nash (what??) Stockton (should be higher and the only one thats debatable for the #2 spot) then Isaiah Thomas.

Skip Bayless ‏@RealSkipBayless 55m
JKidd 2nd best PG ever after Magic. 1st in PG rebounds, 2nd assists&steals, 4-time 1st team all D. Deadly 3pt shot. WINNER. Isiah more 2G.


He basically said he wasnt really a PG. More a SG that played PG.

Skip has said some crazy things before....but WOW

Nope.

I think its a fair argument....

Magic, Kidd, Stockton, Zeke, Nash were/are all extremely good. You could make a fair argument to Zeke being 4th/5th best of that group.

I'll trust Goldtop's opinions over Skip Bayless.

Skip doesn't know anything about sports. That's about as nicely as I can put it.

I'd rank the all-time PGs

1. Magic
2. Stock
3. Zeke

(For simplicity's sake I'm considering Jerry West a 2 guard)

Skip is one of the worst sports minds there is. He is paid to be controversial. Ignore him as a sideshow in the sports universe

ajaX82 wrote:Skip is one of the worst sports minds there is. He is paid to be controversial. Ignore him as a sideshow in the sports universe

Summed up perfectly.

ajaX82 wrote:Skip is one of the worst sports minds there is. He is paid to be controversial. Ignore him as a sideshow in the sports universe

^ Yup. And this is honestly nothing new, as he's done this whole ridiculous "Isiah Thomas was a shooting guard" song and dance before. "Cuz, you know, so many shooting guards ever set the single season assist record ...

And by the way, it's sacrilege that Oscar Robertson hasn't been mentioned in the "All Time Greatest" PG discussion yet. Magic, Oscar, Isiah, Stockton, & Cousy make up the top five in my book.

Who cares whar Skip Bayless says? He's like the idiot at the bar, making up weird stuff. He entertains you, but you don't truly listen to his advice concerning women...

do they rank Oscar as a SG?

Sheedpocalypse wrote: He entertains you

You need to raise your bar of what qualifies as entertainment.

If Jason Kidd was a "winner" why didn't he win a title until he was the 4th-5th best guy?

Kidd wasn't a "deadly 3 point shooter" until he was in his 30s and had to adapt, his first ten years in the league he was a 32% shooter from distance, Rudy Gay is a career 34% shooter and gets ragged on for taking too many 3's.

Kidd was a very good player, but never the best player on a championship team. More than a little ridiculous to call him the 2nd best pg ever.

Stockton and Kidd might be able to hold Isiah's jock, but they weren't qualified to wear it.

This is no contest, Isiah was a superior player compared to these guys.

And Bayless is a know-nothing loud mouth. He's found a way to make more money than most other hack sportswriters. Big deal.

ajaX82 wrote:Skip is one of the worst sports minds there is. He is paid to be controversial. Ignore him as a sideshow in the sports universe

Pretty much. He is the proverbial devil's advocate, who's only real purpose is to ignite controversy even when non exists.

That said, I do feel it's a legit debate to have. Personally, I'd rank Zeke 2nd behind only Magic but it's not an insult to have Stockton, Nash & Kidd in the conversation. They each embody the more traditional notion of what a PG should be; efficient playmakers who make their teammates better.

Isiah's drive and tenacity is what separates him from the bunch, but that particular mindset was particularly well suited to our rosters balance and depth. He was better suited to being the "best" player on a team. But if you actually have a closer at the 2/3 spot (or wherever) then I can certainly see the merit to having a "pure" pg who's best asset is their ability to create for others.

Kidd was an outstanding defender, who worked hard to develop a consistent outside shot. He was little better than Rondo when he entered the league. Nash, despite horrific defense, is as pure a shooter as you'll find and the very embodiment of "efficient" offense. The only thing Stockton ever did wrong was run into the Bulls in their prime, the same of which could be said for Barkley or a host of others. Hakeem may never have won either if not for Jordans failed foray into baseball.

I'll stick with Isiah, but I'm not gonna act like this is some sort of travesty either. It's very subjective. But Bayless is still a moron.

StickAndMove wrote:Skip doesn't know anything about sports. That's about as nicely as I can put it.

I'd rank the all-time PGs

1. Magic
2. Stock
3. Zeke

(For simplicity's sake I'm considering Jerry West a 2 guard)

Stockton played no D, and Utah was rather aggressive handout out assists as well. Isiah Thomas was a far better player then Stockton, career numbers don't mean anything in these arguments, other then the guy played a long time. No team would rather have Stockton then Isiah, you ranked him 2nd overall, not sure anyone would take Stockton over Kidd who was his contemporary for a period of time. Kidd was a lockdown defender.

Isiah Thomas is better than Stockton in every facet of the game except three point shooting. Better scorer, every bit the floor general, better defender and more clutch. I'd take Walt Frazier, Gary Payton, Nash and 07-08 CP3 all ahead of him.

Not sure how a guy with career averages of 19/9 and a career high of 14 assists per game during one season is a 2 guard. Typical Skip trying to create buzz..

Drwho17 wrote:

StickAndMove wrote:Skip doesn't know anything about sports. That's about as nicely as I can put it.

I'd rank the all-time PGs

1. Magic
2. Stock
3. Zeke

(For simplicity's sake I'm considering Jerry West a 2 guard)

Stockton played no D, and Utah was rather aggressive handout out assists as well. Isiah Thomas was a far better player then Stockton, career numbers don't mean anything in these arguments, other then the guy played a long time. No team would rather have Stockton then Isiah, you ranked him 2nd overall, not sure anyone would take Stockton over Kidd who was his contemporary for a period of time. Kidd was a lockdown defender.

Stockton's defense was always underrated. His basketball IQ allowed him to be a good defender. He played dirty, but never averaged more than three fouls per game. His advanced defensive stats back this up, but if you just want to look at basic, traditional stats, his steals numbers are first all-time. Zeke is the only player besides Stockton to average 13.5 assists per game. But Isiah did it once; John did it five times, including two seasons in which he averaged over 14.

I put Stockton so high because he ran an offense as well as anybody, and was, in my opinion, one of the smartest basketball players to ever play. His assist-to-turnover ratio as well as his field goal percentage support this. Isiah definitely had advantages over Stockton but he never ran the offense as efficiently, he never developed the three-point shot Stockton had, and he didn't have anywhere near the longevity. On top of that, Isiah's field goal and free throw percentages were worse. Zeke was a more prolific scorer, more athletic, and a better defender. He would've destroyed Stockton in a one-on-one game, but he wasn't as effective in reality.

Piston Prince wrote:

Sheedpocalypse wrote: He entertains you

You need to raise your bar of what qualifies as entertainment.

Maybe I should, but I got this thing for low brow stuff...

Isiah, 2 championships.

The overrated John Stockton, 0 championships.

Now shadduuuupppp!

(Seriously, Isiah was a much greaert player. This isn't a close call. As for stats, with Zeke stats are useless. The guy totally changed his game to benefit his team. He could have had all the phony Nate Archibauld type numbers if he just continued to play selfish BB. On his Pistons teams - which really were his teams - he made sure to share the wealth, which is a huge reason the Bad Boys were so great.

Skip is like the poster who has never played basketball but can read advanced stats , so he thinks he played basketball. Ajax summed it up perfectly