Page 1 of 1
What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:50 am
by Laimbeer
These are a few I think he may not have made if he was comfortable he would be around long term -
The Gordon/Maggette deal - givi ng up a first to get cap space a year earlier.
Drafting KCP over Burke - going for a position of immediate need over long term potential.
Signing Josh Smith - outstanding talent, but questionable fit and attitude.
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:19 am
by Redeemed
Laimbeer wrote:These are a few I think he may not have made if he was comfortable he would be around long term -
The Gordon/Maggette deal - givi ng up a first to get cap space a year earlier.
Drafting KCP over Burke - going for a position of immediate need over long term potential.
Signing Josh Smith - outstanding talent, but questionable fit and attitude.
Gordon/Maggette deal was a gamble to gain fiscal flexibility, but it did not scream insecurity.
KCP over Burke - I'm not convinced Burke will be the superstar people who live in Michigan think he will be. Burke will be solid. He will be capable. He used to remind me of DJ Augustin, but I think he's more in line with Jameer Nelson. Actually looking at Peyton Siva I tend to compare those two as opposed to KCP and Burke. Siva has been rock steady. He has took really good care of the ball and proven to be an accomplished pick and roll orchestrator.
Josh Smith upgrades the defense. He gives us an impressive rebounding frontline. He offers significant match problems for the other teams and fills several areas of weakness the Pistons have had for the past few seasons.
Luigi Datome was a creative addition to the team. He's a shooter with size and athleticism who has dominated in his league and appears ready to make the leap to the league. He will be an excellent addition to the second unit.
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:57 pm
by OneBadMutha
Disagree with all of it...except maybe the BG trade. Basically Pistons gave up a 1st to avoid an extra year of salary. Would've had the same cap flexibility w/ an amnesty of BG.
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:11 pm
by Kilo
^At the cost of $12M+ to Gores. Self-made billionaires are not used to giving $12M away for nothing. If we can have a good season this year and Charlotte gets a 16-17th overall pick, then as much as it will suck not to have a first rounder it might end up a good trade still.
Josh Smith for expiring Ben Gordon and a top 8 protected first rounder is basically what it became.
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:23 pm
by DetroitSho
Kilo wrote:^At the cost of $12M+ to Gores. Self-made billionaires are not used to giving $12M away for nothing. If we can have a good season this year and Charlotte gets a 16-17th overall pick, then as much as it will suck not to have a first rounder it might end up a good trade still.
Josh Smith for expiring Ben Gordon and a top 8 protected first rounder is basically what it became.
Quite frankly if we get eliminated in the first round, all we would have to do is be the last 1st round team to bow out and that pick becomes #22. I don't think people realize that. Ben Gordon and #22 pick for Josh Smith becomes pretty fair.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using RealGM Forums mobile app
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:25 pm
by Pharaoh
Kilo wrote:Josh Smith for expiring Ben Gordon and a top 8 protected first rounder is basically what it became.
If Atlanta offered that to us before we shipped BG to Charlotte who says no?
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:28 pm
by captainrebel
Burke will be either Rodney Stuckey or Matteen Cleaves. I hope Stuckey.
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:54 pm
by Kilo
Pharaoh wrote:Kilo wrote:Josh Smith for expiring Ben Gordon and a top 8 protected first rounder is basically what it became.
If Atlanta offered that to us before we shipped BG to Charlotte who says no?
This is trickier because the Detroit acquisition of Smith makes the pick much more likely to be in the mid-round of the first. Charlotte made the trade banking on it eventually being a lottery pick.
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:58 pm
by princeofpalace
DetroitSho wrote:Kilo wrote:^At the cost of $12M+ to Gores. Self-made billionaires are not used to giving $12M away for nothing. If we can have a good season this year and Charlotte gets a 16-17th overall pick, then as much as it will suck not to have a first rounder it might end up a good trade still.
Josh Smith for expiring Ben Gordon and a top 8 protected first rounder is basically what it became.
Quite frankly if we get eliminated in the first round, all we would have to do is be the last 1st round team to bow out and that pick becomes #22. I don't think people realize that. Ben Gordon and #22 pick for Josh Smith becomes pretty fair.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using RealGM Forums mobile app
It doesn't work that way, if we have the worst record of all the playoff teams we will end up with pick #15. How a team performs in the playoffs had no bearing on their draft position
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:11 pm
by DetroitSho
princeofpalace wrote:DetroitSho wrote:Kilo wrote:^At the cost of $12M+ to Gores. Self-made billionaires are not used to giving $12M away for nothing. If we can have a good season this year and Charlotte gets a 16-17th overall pick, then as much as it will suck not to have a first rounder it might end up a good trade still.
Josh Smith for expiring Ben Gordon and a top 8 protected first rounder is basically what it became.
Quite frankly if we get eliminated in the first round, all we would have to do is be the last 1st round team to bow out and that pick becomes #22. I don't think people realize that. Ben Gordon and #22 pick for Josh Smith becomes pretty fair.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using RealGM Forums mobile app
It doesn't work that way, if we have the worst record of all the playoff teams we will end up with pick #15. How a team performs in the playoffs had no bearing on their draft position
Really? Thought it was the order of how you bowed out. So for instance that '07-08 Atlanta team that was 37-45 and took Boston to 7 games in the first round. You're saying if on some matrix reality they beat Boston, Cleveland and then Detroit in the ECF but end up losing to the Lakers in the Finals, they still would've ended up with the 15th pick in the draft? You could be right, but that seems odd.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using RealGM Forums mobile app
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:04 pm
by joeposh
captainrebel wrote:Burke will be either Rodney Stuckey or Matteen Cleaves. I hope Stuckey.
Since when can Stuckey shoot a 3 ball and effectively distribute? Since when is Trey a hyper-athletic combo guard? I don't see many parallels between Burke and Stuck.
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:04 pm
by princeofpalace
DetroitSho wrote:[quote="princeofpalace]It doesn't work that way, if we have the worst record of all the playoff teams we will end up with pick #15. How a team performs in the playoffs had no bearing on their draft position[/quote]
Really? Thought it was the order of how you bowed out. So for instance that '07-08 Atlanta team that was 37-45 and took Boston to 7 games in the first round. You're saying if on some matrix reality they beat Boston, Cleveland and then Detroit in the ECF but end up losing to the Lakers in the Finals, they still would've ended up with the 15th pick in the draft? You could be right, but that seems odd.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using RealGM Forums mobile app[/quote]
Again, it doesn't work that way. Draft order for playoff teams is determined by the teams record. In that scenario you have presented, ATL would still have pick 15
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:23 pm
by The Penguin
Completely disagree that Burke has more potential than KCP. Burke will likely always be a liability defensively while KCP could easily become a Jason Richardson or better type 2 guard. Burke is from Columbus and only went to Michigan because OSU didn't offer him. Had he been a Buckeye I highly doubt most who are upset with passing him would even care.
Joe has long wanted Josh Smith (who ironically was picked with the pick we traded Atlanta for Rasheed). I don't think us having cap the same year he became a UFA was coincidence.
I don't think us making the playoffs is the slam dunk many assume. We are very young and have a brand new coach (again). Look at the Lakers last year or the Heat the year before, both teams had much higher ceilings than ours with proven players and it took each a while to gel, I don't expect Josh Smith, a new head coach and a bunch of guys in their first couple of years to suddenly become a .500 squad. If one of Monroe/Smith/Drummond goes down for a while we are suddenly VERY thin upfront and our lead perimeter ball handler is one of Knight/Bynum/Stuckey, those things do not say playoff team to me.
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:30 pm
by Brapman
This thread starts off looking for factoids to prove a highly questionable proposition.
I could find as much evidence that tends to prove I'm attacted to gerbils, as y'all can find that Joe is making moves out of fear of something. The guy is simply doing his best to return us to championship contention someday soon. Period.
(A proposition that there's just as much evidence for - a probably a ton more evidence for - compared to the thread starting proposition)
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:38 pm
by ComboGuardCity
I don't think the BG trade was all Joe. We could have amnestied BG this year to sign Josh Smith outright. No asset necessary. If we don't amnesty CV and make something happen there then its still a bad trade.
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:50 pm
by Snakebites
Laimbeer wrote:These are a few I think he may not have made if he was comfortable he would be around long term -
The Gordon/Maggette deal - givi ng up a first to get cap space a year earlier.
Drafting KCP over Burke - going for a position of immediate need over long term potential.
Signing Josh Smith - outstanding talent, but questionable fit and attitude.
1) Maybe. The reasoning for this deal, IMO, could be one of two things. The first possibility is exactly what you're saying, he feels insecure and figures if they team hasn't improved by the time the pick gets shelled out he's out of a job anyway. The second possibility is that he GENUINELY believed at the time that he'd be able to get the team back on track if just given the chance to work on it for a couple of years.
2) No. KCP was an appropriate pick, and I don't think he's necessarily that much better short term or worse long term than Burke. The pick is defensible looking at things from either perspective.
3) Yes. I believe he made this move because the team needs to start putting a better product on the floor THIS season as per Gore's expectations.
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:58 pm
by Brapman
And P.S., I never wanted Burke, and believe he's going to be a nothing special in this league. After watching two SL games I continue to be extremely unimpressed by him.
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:52 pm
by joseph mamah
DetroitSho wrote:princeofpalace wrote:DetroitSho wrote:Quite frankly if we get eliminated in the first round, all we would have to do is be the last 1st round team to bow out and that pick becomes #22. I don't think people realize that. Ben Gordon and #22 pick for Josh Smith becomes pretty fair.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using RealGM Forums mobile app
It doesn't work that way, if we have the worst record of all the playoff teams we will end up with pick #15. How a team performs in the playoffs had no bearing on their draft position
Really? Thought it was the order of how you bowed out. So for instance that '07-08 Atlanta team that was 37-45 and took Boston to 7 games in the first round. You're saying if on some matrix reality they beat Boston, Cleveland and then Detroit in the ECF but end up losing to the Lakers in the Finals, they still would've ended up with the 15th pick in the draft? You could be right, but that seems odd.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using RealGM Forums mobile app
your thinking NFL rules, they go by order of elimination.
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:06 pm
by ImHeisenberg
Piston Prince wrote:Completely disagree that Burke has more potential than KCP.
Re: What moves has Joe made because he isn't secure?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:05 pm
by Clarity
Laimbeer wrote:These are a few I think he may not have made if he was comfortable he would be around long term -
The Gordon/Maggette deal - givi ng up a first to get cap space a year earlier.
Drafting KCP over Burke - going for a position of immediate need over long term potential.
Signing Josh Smith - outstanding talent, but questionable fit and attitude.
BG/Maggette - Common sense says there were other reasons for doing this aside from just this FA period. You dont give up a first rd pick unless you need this person removed immediately.
KCP/Burke - Burke wasnt a need, KCP was. This shouldnt even be on the list & I say that with respect to a great Mich fan base.