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Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:24 am
by MotownMadness
All year I've bounced back in forth after each game wanting to trade either Smith or Monroe on a game to game basis. Looking at it now I don't think either one should go. Starting two of the three and bringing one off the bench constantly gives us a rebounding advantage and give us the points in the paint edge. Also we don't really suffer as much when one of them is in foul trouble or one of them are getting hacked
. Instead we just need to figure out a way to get a solid 3 that can play both sides of the ball. That's probably going to be easier said than done but a three big rotation if used PROPERLY really is a lovely luxury. Also Monroe is to good and young to just give away and I can't see us getting equal value back. Smith despite his IQ is one of the more talented players we've had in Detroit in a while, So we shouldn't just give him away either. Worse case it fails and in 4 years it will be over anyways and we will be rebuilding again with a more experienced Drummond and KCP on fresh new contracts
.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:39 am
by HeroicKennedy
Trade all the bigs.
For Combo Guards.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:41 am
by Clarity
HeroicKennedy wrote:Trade all the bigs.
For Combo Guards & french fries.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:59 am
by dVs33
As a proud member of the "trade smith for anything" party, I say trade smith and be done with it. but as a member of the real world, i also know the chances of Smith being traded anytime soon are slim to none.
That doesn't mean monroe should be traded though.
The 3 can coexist IF cheeks can manage the rotations better.
If the three of them start, that's fine, it's only 6-10 mins, but from then on Cheeks needs to make sure all three get their minutes and they play alongside guys that can compliment them. Its been said a million times already.
Some of his line ups are just ridiculous. His rotations are very hard to understand, at least for me anyways.
If everyone buys into what cheeks is doing, they'll sacrifice their touches for the good of the team.
It's on cheeks to make it work.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:34 am
by Phenomenonsense
HeroicKennedy wrote:Trade all the bigs.
For Combo Guards.
Are you crazy!? Years ago I joked around and said "Lets spend all of our capon BG and CV" as a joke and Joe D **** did it.
He. Is. Watching.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:35 am
by DetroitPistons
I think all three of Jennings, Smith, and Monroe need to be traded. Sure it probably won't happen but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. I think we should just tank this season and trade Monroe for a defensive-minded two-way SF and Jennings for expirings. Fire Dumars and Cheeks at the end of the season and bring in a coach who knows defense. Draft Marcus Smart and roll with
Smart/Billups
Caldwell-Pope/Stuckey
Two-way SF/Singler
Smith
Drummond
I hate Smith (as a basketball player of course) but I think I could stomach something like that for next season. We might actually be able to play halfway decent defense with that starting 5 and some proper coaching.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:24 am
by princeofpalace
I still would trade Smith as soon as we could. Yes he's talented and has the occasional good game, but they are few and far between. If we can trade him then we should. It probably won't be this season though. If I were Joe D, the second we could get something of value for Smith, he'd be gone.
Until then, Cheeks should continue to stagger the rotation and minimize the amount of time all 3 would be on the floor. We all thought this was the plan when Smith was signed, glad to see Cheeks finally get that memo. Before deadline, I would hope to move some of our nonshooters (Bynum, Stuckey, Jerebko, etc) for shooters. I think balanacing the rotation should be a priority and would go a long ways to improving this team
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:16 pm
by ImHeisenberg
It's not about Smith. While he's certainly the most disliked big of the 3, he's not going anywhere.
It's really about Monroe and Drummond. Both of them are centers, neither of them are power forwards. Monroe should have the highest trade value of anyone on the team not named Drummond. He could give this team huge returns in a trade- whether it's a lottery pick in this year's draft and lesser assets, or a borderline all-star wing player.
Stop Being a Joe Dumars! People get overly attached to players and overvalue them. A team who's only won 16 games isn't in a position turn the cheek.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:18 pm
by ImHeisenberg
DetroitPistons wrote:I think all three of Jennings, Smith, and Monroe need to be traded. Sure it probably won't happen but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. I think we should just tank this season and trade Monroe for a defensive-minded two-way SF and Jennings for expirings. Fire Dumars and Cheeks at the end of the season and bring in a coach who knows defense. Draft Marcus Smart and roll with
Smart/Billups
Caldwell-Pope/Stuckey
Two-way SF/Singler
Smith
Drummond
I hate Smith (as a basketball player of course) but I think I could stomach something like that for next season. We might actually be able to play halfway decent defense with that starting 5 and some proper coaching.
That's the thing about the 2014 draft- it's incredibly deep. If you have the 8th pick, you could end up with a potential franchise player. I'm all for your plan.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:28 pm
by DetroitPistons
ImHeisenberg wrote:DetroitPistons wrote:I think all three of Jennings, Smith, and Monroe need to be traded. Sure it probably won't happen but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. I think we should just tank this season and trade Monroe for a defensive-minded two-way SF and Jennings for expirings. Fire Dumars and Cheeks at the end of the season and bring in a coach who knows defense. Draft Marcus Smart and roll with
Smart/Billups
Caldwell-Pope/Stuckey
Two-way SF/Singler
Smith
Drummond
I hate Smith (as a basketball player of course) but I think I could stomach something like that for next season. We might actually be able to play halfway decent defense with that starting 5 and some proper coaching.
That's the thing about the 2014 draft- it's incredibly deep. If you have the 8th pick, you could end up with a potential franchise player. I'm all for your plan.
Yeah that was my thinking as well. I doubt we end up with a top 5 pick but a if we can squeeze into that 8th pick spot I would be happy. Unfortunately, the East sucks and it is tough to predict where we will land. It could be anywhere from the 8th pick to the 4th seed and anything in between.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:59 pm
by theBigLip
I've certainly been in the "Trade Smith Immediately" camp during the 6 game losing streak. If Cheeks is really going to only play two of our bigs at a time and only at the 4 and 5, then maybe trading Smith isn't smart. Like Madness stated, getting a good 3 is probably more important.
Jenning/Bynum
KCP/Stuckey
???/Singler
Smith/Monroe
Drummond/Monroe
Datome, Mitchell, CV, Siva - not sure if that's much material to trade with, but it would be nice to get a 3 that can shoot and play D.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:01 pm
by theBigLip
Actually CV, Mitchell and Siva for Turner? Philly gets a couple of cheap prospects, gets to tank, and we get someone who can play the 3?
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:02 am
by OneBadMutha
If Monroe accepts being a 6th man, great. Won't happen so he's got to be traded. No way he's a long term 4. Already struggles in his athletic prime. No way that's going to get better in the next few years. Every top team can run a pick and roll and abuse slow frontlines. He doesn't compliment Drummond. The once in awhile pass from Monroe to Drummond doesn't mean they have chemistry or make sense together.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:59 am
by ImHeisenberg
theBigLip wrote:Actually CV, Mitchell and Siva for Turner? Philly gets a couple of cheap prospects, gets to tank, and we get someone who can play the 3?
I'd definitely do that- I don't think Philly would. Sam Hinkie is a Morey disciple, the main reason Turner and Young haven't been traded is likely due to Hinkie asking too much for them.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:28 am
by joseph mamah
Websters been struggling lately in Washington, the Wiz might be willing to bite on a CV for Webster deal now that Porters healthy and ready to play.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:04 am
by Clarity
Phenomenonsense wrote:HeroicKennedy wrote:Trade all the bigs.
For Combo Guards.
Are you crazy!? Years ago I joked around and said "Lets spend all of our capon BG and CV" as a joke and Joe D **** did it.
He. Is. Watching.
with the way some of these dudes post on here I am not 100% convinced Joe isnt some of them.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:12 am
by Clarity
ImHeisenberg wrote:It's not about Smith. While he's certainly the most disliked big of the 3, he's not going anywhere.
It's really about Monroe and Drummond. Both of them are centers, neither of them are power forwards. Monroe should have the highest trade value of anyone on the team not named Drummond. He could give this team huge returns in a trade- whether it's a lottery pick in this year's draft and lesser assets, or a borderline all-star wing player.
Stop Being a Joe Dumars! People get overly attached to players and overvalue them. A team who's only won 16 games isn't in a position turn the cheek.
Its obviously highly unlikely but if Joe did indeed trade a highly skilled big like Monroe at 23 years old leaving the cupboard basically dry in 3 or 4 years, we deserve all the failure coming to us.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:27 am
by OneBadMutha
Clarity wrote:ImHeisenberg wrote:It's not about Smith. While he's certainly the most disliked big of the 3, he's not going anywhere.
It's really about Monroe and Drummond. Both of them are centers, neither of them are power forwards. Monroe should have the highest trade value of anyone on the team not named Drummond. He could give this team huge returns in a trade- whether it's a lottery pick in this year's draft and lesser assets, or a borderline all-star wing player.
Stop Being a Joe Dumars! People get overly attached to players and overvalue them. A team who's only won 16 games isn't in a position turn the cheek.
Its obviously highly unlikely but if Joe did indeed trade a highly skilled big like Monroe at 23 years old leaving the cupboard basically dry in 3 or 4 years, we deserve all the failure coming to us.
Right...so if the Pistons trade Monroe, they deserve failure? You related to him?
Monroe is good, not great. He plays one side of the ball and is playing out of position as long as Drummond is here. He may have more value to another team than he does here due to fit.
Monroe fans are getting ridiculous. I understand fans who value the Lebrons or Kobe's over the teams they play for...but Monroe?
Wtf is going on here?
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:57 am
by ComboGuardCity
OneBadMutha wrote:Clarity wrote:ImHeisenberg wrote:It's not about Smith. While he's certainly the most disliked big of the 3, he's not going anywhere.
It's really about Monroe and Drummond. Both of them are centers, neither of them are power forwards. Monroe should have the highest trade value of anyone on the team not named Drummond. He could give this team huge returns in a trade- whether it's a lottery pick in this year's draft and lesser assets, or a borderline all-star wing player.
Stop Being a Joe Dumars! People get overly attached to players and overvalue them. A team who's only won 16 games isn't in a position turn the cheek.
Its obviously highly unlikely but if Joe did indeed trade a highly skilled big like Monroe at 23 years old leaving the cupboard basically dry in 3 or 4 years, we deserve all the failure coming to us.
Right...so if the Pistons trade Monroe, they deserve failure? You related to him?
Monroe is good, not great. He plays one side of the ball and is playing out of position as long as Drummond is here. He may have more value to another team than he does here due to fit.
Monroe fans are getting ridiculous. I understand fans who value the Lebrons or Kobe's over the teams they play for...but Monroe?
Wtf is going on here?
Can you, at the very least, quantify or even qualify any of your rationale? "Monroe only plays one end" is not true.
Re: Don't trade any of the bigs
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:43 am
by HeroicKennedy
I forgot you shouldn't quote that long and I think it got deleted, so I'll just post it this way:
"Half-way through Monroe’s rookie season, one thing was apparent about his offense— he got his shot blocked constantly. People questioned if, because of the deliberate appearance of his game, he would ever be able to handle the modern defenses of athletic NBA centers. In time, and within that first season, he adjusted and improved and was able to score around those types of players with much higher efficiency.
At the time, it would have been short-sighted, foolish and (in hindsight) just plain wrong to suggest that he “can’t score on athletic centers”. And not-yet a half season into his first season at power forward, it’d be short-sighted and foolish to make bold declarative statements about Monroe’s defense at the position.
Especially since they’re based on falsehoods. The areas where Monroe has struggled at power forward this season aren’t about being slow footed, they’re about missed rotations and assignments— learnable mistakes, just like his rookie season. Now, I’m not just pulling this out of thin air, it’s based on some significant supporting evidence. Specifically:
The area where Monroe struggles most on defense is with spot-up shot attempts toward the perimeter. This is the opposite of last season, as spot-up defense on the wing was what he did best (with post-up D being his worst last year, now it’s his best). The reason his man is scoring so well on these shot attempts (39.4% 3-point shooting) is not because Greg is slow-footed, it’s because he’s moved elsewhere during the play. It’s a conscious decision on his part to adjust in another area in the middle of the play, leaving his man open outside the long line.
It’s the same thing Josh Smith is struggling with. It’s just that Greg isn’t struggling as bad as Smith, and it’s only happened on 33 three-point attempts so far this season for Greg. And Greg Monroe’s spot-up defense, his worst performance this season, is better than Josh Smith’s was last season. He’s allowing 0.93 points per possession, while Smith allowed 0.94 points per possession last season.
Now, what Monroe is doing above-average is isolation defense. That’s an area where “slow footed” players get ankles broken against “mobile” players. But Monroe is allowing 0.81 points per possession there.
Monroe’s pick-and-roll defense is good when he sticks to his man, holding the rolling PF to 1.24 points per possession, but the problem is that when the center rolls and Greg adjusts to defend him, it leaves the PF open for a spot-up attempt (as discussed above).
Last, there’s where Greg is excellent, a complete surprise to me. He was bad, downright horrible on post-up defense last season. It was his worst problem. This season, it’s his best, rated at 10th in the league regardless of position, holding his man to 0.60 points per possession.
Greg is great at defending post-oriented big men on post-ups, good at defending them when they are the roller in pick and rolls, average at defending isolation and poor at spot-up D. But he’s not having problems because he’s slow-footed. He’s having problems because he’s making bad decisions. He’s being pulled away from his man, and it’s going to take him time to correct that.
But Greg has always been a quick-study, learning how to adjust to issues like these and doing what is necessary to correct. He did it in his rookie season when it looked like he wasn’t going to be able to handle the athletic defenders in the NBA. He worked at it, adjusted, and thrived. Only a fool would have counted him out then, and only a fool would count him out now."