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We've had a similar discussion a while back. I've said #$%^ you Joe Dumars many times, but I think it can be argued the pressure to win now forced him into bad deals. Perhaps the worst thing a new owner can do is declare his GM must win now or else. You either beieve in the guy and prepare to support him long term, or move on. The last thing you want is a desperate GM.

Joe's had a nice run the past few years in the draft - Drummond, Monroe, and Knight.

I know a lot of us aren't in love with Knight, but statistically it's hard to make the arguement Jennings is significantly better. Knight being younger, cheaper, and having a better attitude adds up to having made a bad trade. But Joe may have done it because he felt he needed a proven veteran point to win now.

Same with the Smith signing. Everyone could see it wasn't a great fit, and what kind of impact he'd have on the younger guys was questionable. Yet Joe had money to spend and may have seen Smith as the best option he could use to gather talent at that point and took the chance.

And trading the pick to get that early cap space in the first place smells like desperation to win now. We could have just rode out the end of Gordon's contract this year, secure in knowing all our picks remain here.

I'd even go so far as to suggest if we had kept Knight (who can be utilized as a combo guard) as well as Gordon for this year (shooting guard) Joe may have looked to a point like Trey Burke rather than KCP. If he felt secure in his job, he may have been okay with drafting Burke, even knowing he might need time to develop. I know the whole Burke/KCP thing has a wide variety of opinion here, but I think the points I made above are valid even without the scenario of drafting Burke.

So we would have....

Gordon expiring instead of Smith on a long term deal
Knight instead of Jennings
All of our own picks for the upcoming years
If you prefer, possibly Burke instead of KCP

With or without the Burke/KCP swap, we'd be in a far better position if we had just continued to build.

Thoughts?

Pressure?

Seriously?!? If the GM can't handle the pressures of the owner expressing his desire to win, then maybe he should GTFO!

I honestly don't think it was unreasonable for Gores to expect a playoff birth by this season when he declared he'd give Joe 3 years when he bought the team.

Dumars is a idiot and does not deserve any sort of excuse, close thread.

it's a combination of Gores expecting too much to fast and demanding Dumars get the team in the playoffs. And then Dumars is also in part to blame. Millsap signed a 2 year 19Mil deal, which is quite a bit better than the deal we signed Smith to. If we'd gotten a deal like that, we wouldn't have been set back nearly as badly as the Smith deal set us back.

I'm fairly certain that Gores' impetus to get into the playoffs affected Dumars actions. But, that doesn't give him an excuse for his terrible deals. Signing Smith for $54 million with Drummond and Moose already under contract was just plain stupid.

Gambling with a first round pick for a salary dump for a team who hasn't even whiffed the playoffs in half a decade is as foolish a move as you could possibly make.

Dumars is bad at his job. He's gotta go.

Gores obviously wanted to win sooner than later, but he obviously wasn't forcing Dumars to trade young guys for established vets, so he has some patience in that regard.
Even if we forget the Gordon trade gamble, Dumars made the wrong moves. This team would have been a playoff team if he signed the correct roles players that would compliment Monroe and Drummond, but Joe spent big money on a guy that doesn't fit. Now it looks like he'll give up a big piece that should have been a part of the teams future (monroe) just to make the mistake work out. And that's why he should be let go.
He's been able to right some of his wrongs by trading away guys he signed to bigger than market value contracts (Prince etc), but i feel like dumars thinks smith is the star that detroit needs and that's nowhere near the truth.
And I'm not even going to start with Buttcheeks
Anyway, Yes, Gores pressure to win forced Dumars to make moves, but Dumars didn't make the right ones. The mess is on Joe.

I agree with your premise. Fans will never blame Gores though because he's here to stay and no amount of their whining will change that, so nothing to gain by complaining about him. Whereas Joe can always be fired, so its easy to call for him to be replaced, and believe that is the answer to all the teams problems. Ultimately Gores is the one who decided to keep Joe and let him hire Cheeks, so you can remove Dumars, but you still have an owner in place that doesn't appear to know what he's doing. And who is to say he will know how to hire the right GM to replace him?

Joe should've been done this summer when it was clear that all the good coach's were avoiding us because of him. Gores' decision to keep him at that point is just as concerning as Dumars decision to hire Cheeks. So the main problem is we have a very inexperienced owner, and short of getting his buddy Phil Jackson to take over operations, I don't know what he's going to do, because he doesn't appear capable of building a winning franchise himself.

There's a good chance Dumars and Cheeks will be done after the season, and rightfully so, but based on Gores' 3 years in charge here, there isn't much evidence to suggest things will be any different after they leave.

Gores was right to expect to win, but I think people sometimes forget that Joe doesn't own this team. Gores does. So he signed off on every one of these moves over the last 3 years. If he wasn't in agreement with Joe, they likely would not have happened. So blame Joe too, but Gores deserves the most blame for the last 3 years.

The Lions have been an inept franchise for 50 years. Matt Millen was only part of 10 of those years. So ultimately its Ford who is responsible for that teams failure, not Millen. Now that Ford jr is taking over, they are starting to make more sensible moves and look to be moving in the right direction. The Pistons were fortunate to have a great owner in Mr D for 30+ years. Now we as Pistons fans are beginning to know what Lions fans have dealt with for 50 years in having a clueless/absent owner. It really does start at the top.

Gores has reasonable expectations. There is no excuse to not make the playoffs this year in the East. No excuse.

Dumars rolled the dice on two free agents. Might have overpaid on Smith, but I think got a reasonable contract on Jennings. And I think Smith is tradeable even with his contract. But the biggest problem is the coach. If Smith is shooting too much (or at least shooting outside of 10 feet), then that is on the coach. If Jennings is hogging the ball too much and not spreading the ball around, thats on the coach (and Billups too!).

Gores did not put too much pressure on Dumars. Dumars has just failed as GM. Time to move on.

The simple answer to this question is yes.

With that said, I still hold Dumars responsible. Its his fault he signed Ben Gordon to a contract so bad we needed to spend a first rounder to unload it. Its his fault he signed Josh Smith with no eye towards proactive moves that would, at the very least, allow us to use the player the way he was meant to be used. Even if he was backed into a wall and had to do something this offseason signing a chucker to a 54 million dollar deal to play out of position was a dumb move.

Nobody forced him to hire a coach who can't make adjustments or analyze statistics. Nobody forced him to put together a roster and game plan that would hinder the development of the only genuinely valuable pieces this team has.

Its very simple. Dumars knew short term improvements were the only way to save his job, Gores wasn't interested in a protracted rebuild (again, not that I blame him, he was purchasing a team that was already muddled in a couple years of terrible play).

Its sad to think this is where Dumars ends up in terms of his career. He was a hero to this organization in more ways than one, but that's all a distant memory. Hopefully years from now I'll remember things as they were before and not as they've been the last few years.

Joe Dumars tried hitting a home run and he struck out.

need4detroit wrote:Joe Dumars tried hitting a home run and he struck out.

Tends to happen when you try to swing at one in the dirt.

Dumars may be a terrible GM, but Gores may end up just as bad as an owner. Demanding the playoffs was foolish for a team so void of talent. Actually it was idiotic.

DonVitoReturns wrote:Dumars may be a terrible GM, but Gores may end up just as bad as an owner. Demanding the playoffs was foolish for a team so void of talent. Actually it was idiotic.

Gores deserves 100% if the blame for
a.) The lottery pick
b.) Not amnestying CV31

Snakebites wrote:
Its sad to think this is where Dumars ends up in terms of his career. He was a hero to this organization in more ways than one, but that's all a distant memory. Hopefully years from now I'll remember things as they were before and not as they've been the last few years.

true. This guy has been here nearly 30 years, and he's played all major role in all the franchise's NBA titles and ECF battles. Let's not forget that. He messed up. A lot as of late. But it shouldn't tarnish his legacy. He is a Pistons legend, and I hate to see it come to this. He's just screwed up too many times now.

It all went to hell when Davidson died.

theBigLip wrote:Gores has reasonable expectations. There is no excuse to not make the playoffs this year in the East. .

How about Gores publicly stating the following, rather than demanding the playoffs:

"Our goal is to build a team that competes for titles. That's been the primary goal in the past for this franchise, and that'll be the primary goal for this franchise in the future. We are going to do things that help us accomplish that goal. With that focus, we will be in the playoffs. That may be next year, it may be the year after. Making the playoffs isn't the goal. Getting better and winning Titles is. We will not do anything to 'make the playoffs.' We will only do things that will return this franchise to elite status so that we can compete for ultimate prize.

I don't care about making the playoffs.

I care about being Champions of the NBA"...


If Gores had said THAT, and meant it, perhaps the idiotic offseason moves may have been different...no Jennings, no Smith, etc. Those moves don't help if the goal is to win it all. Sometimes that requires nothing but patience and lottery picks...until you get lucky and draft a legit superstar.

Patience.

To date, it doesn't look like Gores has a clue.

DonVitoReturns wrote:

theBigLip wrote:Gores has reasonable expectations. There is no excuse to not make the playoffs this year in the East. .

How about Gores publicly stating the following, rather than demanding the playoffs:

"Our goal is to build a team that competes for titles. That's been the primary goal in the past for this franchise, and that'll be the primary goal for this franchise in the future. We are going to do things that help us accomplish that goal. With that focus, we will be in the playoffs. That may be next year, it may be the year after. Making the playoffs isn't the goal. Getting better and winning Titles is. We will not do anything to 'make the playoffs.' We will only do things that will return this franchise to elite status so that we can compete for ultimate prize.

I don't care about making the playoffs.

I care about being Champions of the NBA"...


If Gores had said THAT, and meant it, perhaps the idiotic offseason moves may have been different...no Jennings, no Smith, etc. Those moves don't help if the goal is to win it all. Sometimes that requires nothing but patience and lottery picks...until you get lucky and draft a legit superstar.

Patience.

To date, it doesn't look like Gores has a clue.

You do realize Dumars has been infatuated with Smith even before Gores became the Owner? Signing Smith isn't on him, if anything its probably Dumars who convinced Smith is what the Pistons needed to win a championship. Dumars has been pretty adamant in the past hes not at all interested tanking for a better draft position. Tanking on purpose is something hes never wanted to do.

Sheeeeed wrote:

DonVitoReturns wrote:

theBigLip wrote:Gores has reasonable expectations. There is no excuse to not make the playoffs this year in the East. .

How about Gores publicly stating the following, rather than demanding the playoffs:

"Our goal is to build a team that competes for titles. That's been the primary goal in the past for this franchise, and that'll be the primary goal for this franchise in the future. We are going to do things that help us accomplish that goal. With that focus, we will be in the playoffs. That may be next year, it may be the year after. Making the playoffs isn't the goal. Getting better and winning Titles is. We will not do anything to 'make the playoffs.' We will only do things that will return this franchise to elite status so that we can compete for ultimate prize.

I don't care about making the playoffs.

I care about being Champions of the NBA"...


If Gores had said THAT, and meant it, perhaps the idiotic offseason moves may have been different...no Jennings, no Smith, etc. Those moves don't help if the goal is to win it all. Sometimes that requires nothing but patience and lottery picks...until you get lucky and draft a legit superstar.

Patience.

To date, it doesn't look like Gores has a clue.

You do realize Dumars has been infatuated with Smith even before Gores became the Owner? Signing Smith isn't on him, if anything its probably Dumars who convinced Smith is what the Pistons needed to win a championship. Dumars has been pretty adamant in the past hes not at all interested tanking for a better draft position. Tanking on purpose is something hes never wanted to do.

. I do...personally I have more of a problem with Jennings than Smith. That was the deal breaker for me. I'm not giving Dumars a pass...not in the least. However, if the owner doesn't have the correct vision, there's absolutely no hope. Gores has been completely underwhelming thus far.

DonVitoReturns wrote:

Sheeeeed wrote:

DonVitoReturns wrote:
How about Gores publicly stating the following, rather than demanding the playoffs:

"Our goal is to build a team that competes for titles. That's been the primary goal in the past for this franchise, and that'll be the primary goal for this franchise in the future. We are going to do things that help us accomplish that goal. With that focus, we will be in the playoffs. That may be next year, it may be the year after. Making the playoffs isn't the goal. Getting better and winning Titles is. We will not do anything to 'make the playoffs.' We will only do things that will return this franchise to elite status so that we can compete for ultimate prize.

I don't care about making the playoffs.

I care about being Champions of the NBA"...


If Gores had said THAT, and meant it, perhaps the idiotic offseason moves may have been different...no Jennings, no Smith, etc. Those moves don't help if the goal is to win it all. Sometimes that requires nothing but patience and lottery picks...until you get lucky and draft a legit superstar.

Patience.

To date, it doesn't look like Gores has a clue.

You do realize Dumars has been infatuated with Smith even before Gores became the Owner? Signing Smith isn't on him, if anything its probably Dumars who convinced Smith is what the Pistons needed to win a championship. Dumars has been pretty adamant in the past hes not at all interested tanking for a better draft position. Tanking on purpose is something hes never wanted to do.

. I do...personally I have more of a problem with Jennings than Smith. That was the deal breaker for me. I'm not giving Dumars a pass...not in the least. However, if the owner doesn't have the correct vision, there's absolutely no hope. Gores has been completely underwhelming thus far.

I don't know It just seems to soon to judge him based on what Dumars has done so far. He fired Frank when there was more problems in the locker room, and fans were crying for it too. Not to mention he was willing to spend. Hes not Jerry Jones, hes not making the basketball decisions. I don't know what more you can ask of him so far.

Snakebites wrote:Its sad to think this is where Dumars ends up in terms of his career. He was a hero to this organization in more ways than one, but that's all a distant memory. Hopefully years from now I'll remember things as they were before and not as they've been the last few years.

Any animosity towards Dumars will quickly dissipate (at least for me) once he's relieved of GM duties. I will absolutely remember him as the hero of the Pistons who helped deliver 3 championships to Detroit. And I will not celebrate the day that happens. It will definitely mean good things for the Pistons organization going forward, but I take absolutely no joy in Dumars losing his job. It's done out of necessity, not out of malice.