New Article- "Josh Smith's Motown Blues"- Baller Mind Frame"

[Pachulia]

The article takes a different look at his struggles, and makes a case for why he may deserve a break.

http://www.ballermindframe.com/2014/02/04/josh-smiths-motown-blues-rough-transition-j-smoove/

[theBigLip]

Blame goes all the way around. Dumars for signing him to play SF, Cheeks for letting him shoot outside 10 feet while at SF, and Smith himself for shooting us out of victories every night.

[dVs33]

i'm really sick of the Smith is better at PF argument because we've seen him play badly at the position this season.
We can all agree that Cheeks is a bad coach, but that doesn't excuse Smiths play.
He doesn't use his brain when he plays and he is lazy. If Smith played with intensity for the whole game he'd be amazing, but he's constantly settling for long jumpers and playing lazy perimeter D.
That's all it is. there doesn't need to be another article about how the roster isn't balanced and the situation isn't perfect, we get it already. If he plays smart, then we win more. simple.

[MrBigShot]

Smith has played awful whether he's been at PF or SF. With that said, I'll admit I've probably been too hard on him. I still don't like his lack of shooting conscience, but most of the blame falls on Dumars...for hiring Cheeks, for signing a power forward to be our small forward.

[Pachulia]

i'm really sick of the Smith is better at PF argument because we've seen him play badly at the position this season.
We can all agree that Cheeks is a bad coach, but that doesn't excuse Smiths play.
He doesn't use his brain when he plays and he is lazy. If Smith played with intensity for the whole game he'd be amazing, but he's constantly settling for long jumpers and playing lazy perimeter D.
That's all it is. there doesn't need to be another article about how the roster isn't balanced and the situation isn't perfect, we get it already. If he plays smart, then we win more. simple.

I think the main problem came from giving him minutes at small forward to begin with. Because he spends more time outside at the 3, when he does play the 4, he thinks it is okay to stay out there, which forces his 4 play to worsen as well. If he played the 4 primarily , he would conceivably feel less inclined to be outside.

[Mr. Krabs]

He could have really good numbers if he was the 3rd option on this team. Don't give him the ball at the top of the key, Monroe can create from the elbow. He should just cut to the basket, can finish despite the contact and also can pass inside or kick outside. He is just not a creator or primary ball handler, he sucks at those.

[Q00]

Another Smith thread?

Drummond is having a monster season and all people want to talk about on here is other players' negatives. Then every other thread not about Smith is about rooting for the team to lose. There isn't even any real basketball talk on here anymore. Its either talk trash about a player or talk about how to lose. This forum has turned into loserville.

[Clarity]

i'm really sick of the Smith is better at PF argument because we've seen him play badly at the position this season.

Its a urban myth, hes the same bone head player here as he was in Atlanta for 9 years.

Blame goes all the way around. Dumars for signing him to play SF, Cheeks for letting him shoot outside 10 feet while at SF, and Smith himself for shooting us out of victories every night.

Good post, for me, its Dumars. Josh just got paid by any means necessary. Cant knock that.

The move never made even 1% of sense, I said it in the Summer.

[dVs33]

i'm really sick of the Smith is better at PF argument because we've seen him play badly at the position this season.
We can all agree that Cheeks is a bad coach, but that doesn't excuse Smiths play.
He doesn't use his brain when he plays and he is lazy. If Smith played with intensity for the whole game he'd be amazing, but he's constantly settling for long jumpers and playing lazy perimeter D.
That's all it is. there doesn't need to be another article about how the roster isn't balanced and the situation isn't perfect, we get it already. If he plays smart, then we win more. simple.

I think the main problem came from giving him minutes at small forward to begin with. Because he spends more time outside at the 3, when he does play the 4, he thinks it is okay to stay out there, which forces his 4 play to worsen as well. If he played the 4 primarily , he would conceivably feel less inclined to be outside.

This is just false. He's the same player at SF as he is at PF.

[ImHeisenberg]

Maybe we should all just agree to a Josh Smith black out? Just stop talking about him in any capacity.

[kurtis48239]

Iam so tired of people saying hes terrible at sf or pf,the guy has a good to great games and bad ones.To act like moose has been great this year and hasant had any bad games is putting the blinders on.Other than the last 2 games the only thing moose was beating smith at was being more efficent,other than that smith has been better.

[Hotmayo]

Even though smith is shooting too many jumpers, which he shouldn't, he's still extremely valuable. We are actually competing with pacers and heat bc of smith. If we didn't have smith to play sf/pf against heat/pacers, then who? Cv/Middleton/singler? If we didn't sign smith.. Lol we would get spanked if we didn't have smith in the lineup , a player who can hold his own on offense and defense against the best. You guys need to stop bitching we need a 2 guard that can score! Kcp isn't scoring! A big problem. If we had a talented #1 option 2 guard we would be one of the best teams in the nba. Our number one option should be the 2-guard, then jennings second option, Monroe third option, and smith 4rth option and we would be winning almost every night. Instead josh becomes our 2nd option most nights lol do you guys not know this? Come on seriously

[HeroicKennedy]

Iam so tired of people saying hes terrible at sf or pf,the guy has a good to great games and bad ones.To act like moose has been great this year and hasant had any bad games is putting the blinders on.Other than the last 2 games the only thing moose was beating smith at was being more efficent,other than that smith has been better.

It's rather simple: Josh Smith has had more bad games than Greg Monroe, and Josh Smith's offense is significantly more damaging than Greg Monroe's defense. Combined with their respective ages, this is why people think the better solution is to keep Monroe and dump Smith.

Josh Smith is one of the top five worst starters in the league in terms of WS with the third worst true shooting percentage, just a shade under Kendrick Perkins. In order for you to argue that Monroe's defense is THAT damaging, you would have to argue that Greg Monroe is a bottom 5 defender in the league. I don't buy it.

[Notanoob]

Even though smith is shooting too many jumpers, which he shouldn't, he's still extremely valuable. We are actually competing with pacers and heat bc of smith. If we didn't have smith to play sf/pf against heat/pacers, then who? Cv/Middleton/singler? If we didn't sign smith.. Lol we would get spanked if we didn't have smith in the lineup , a player who can hold his own on offense and defense against the best. You guys need to stop bitching we need a 2 guard that can score! Kcp isn't scoring! A big problem. If we had a talented #1 option 2 guard we would be one of the best teams in the nba. Our number one option should be the 2-guard, then jennings second option, Monroe third option, and smith 4rth option and we would be winning almost every night. Instead josh becomes our 2nd option most nights lol do you guys not know this? Come on seriously

Wow...we actually found someone who still likes Smith. I'm personally stunned.

Plus, this is just dumb too. We need a 2 guard who can score, and he should be our #1 option? Even if that was a requirement, which it really isn't, where do you find one of these? Most of the 2 guards in this league are $hitty or mediocre. Even the stars have huge flaws-Kobe's old, Wade can't stay healthy and is a poor jump-shooter, Harden doesn't play defense. The only other teams with 2 guards as #1 options I can think of are Torronto and Orlando.

We've played Miami close, but don't you think this has something to do with the fact that we've got a trio of awesome big men who can punish them on the glass and in the paint? I certainly do. Besides, it's not like JSmoove was contributing greatly to that game. He didn't score much, shot poorly, turned the ball over a ton, and it's not like he stopped LeBron or anything. Given how terrible he's been at making his rotations and closing out shooters in most of our games, he's been hurting us much more often than he's helped us.

Plus, it's not like we can change who he is. He's been the same player for years, even in Atlanta, where he had crack shooters spacing the floor, guys like Joe Johnson and Al Horford playing with him, he was still jacking up dumb shots every game.

Jennings should be our second option? Really? Have you seen how badly he's shooting? Why would you want him being the #2 option? Why shouldn't we be running our offense through Moose, who's got the best efficiency of anyone on this team who can create his own shot, and is a good passer too?

I mean, if we could somehow magically add an elite 2 guard to this team, sure, we'd be better, because elite players make a team better no matter what. But that isn't an option for this team, and we can get better SFs. Deng is an option this offseason if we can move JSmoove. He plays more consistent defense than Smith and doesn't chuck his team out of games.

But why am I bothering here? If you really do believe that Josh Smith is a great player and contributor, after watching him play this season, I don't know if anyone will convince you.

[Invictus88]

But why am I bothering here? If you really do believe that Josh Smith is a great player and contributor, after watching him play this season, I don't know if anyone will convince you.

This.

Here is an abridged version of every Josh Smith thread on RealGM:

1. Original Poster writes something or makes reference to something that puts Smith in a negative light.
2. An optional number of affirmative posts agree with OP, sometimes citing facts/stats
3. A Smith advocate comes on and makes a "I can't understand why people hate on Smith" post.
4. Posters then try to reply to Smith advocate using more facts and reasoning.
5. Smith advocate says that he will change given time for team to 'gel' or after coaching, etc
6. Facts / reasoning posted about how he hasn't changed in 9 years.
7. Smith advocate replies that Smith isn't being utilized correctly and is a PF playing SF
8. Facts / reasoning posted about how this assumption is incorrect and he still shoots similarly at either.
7. Smith advocate tries to shift topic to team defense at some point and asks why people are focusing on offensive woes.
8. More facts / reasoning posted about how Smith is also bad at defense.
9. Smith poster then tries to shift focus to Monroe and how bad he is at the 4.
10. More facts /reasoning posted about how Monroe is not hurting his team like Smith is and is doing a decent but not spectacular job at the 4.
11. Smith poster goes back to saying if we traded Monroe then Smith would be playing better.
12. God awful trade ideas spawn everywhere for guys like Rudy Gay.
13. Go to step 3.

14. Optionally fit in 'Jennings is the real problem' reply by Smith advocate.
15. Optionally fit in 'it's ALL the coaching's fault' reply by Smith advocate. (Granted Cheeks sucks but Smith is at fault too)
16. Optionally fit in 'This board is toxic and everybody only says negative things' by Smith advocate.

[HeroicKennedy]

Well if we're assigning a blame hierarchy, I'd say its

Dumars
Gores
Smith

Dumars for absolutely failing to address the team's biggest flaws and instead doubling down on its strengths
Gores for not relieving Dumars before he could do this yet again.
Smith for being... well, Smith (which I give him reprieve in terms of blame because we asked him to do this).

The issue is less "how much is Smith to blame" and more "how poorly is Smith playing" and "can Smith be a good player at PF." The answer is "no" and "no." Smith has been trending down for a while now, he's 28 and he's been in the league for 10 seasons (making him an "old" 28) while relying too heavily on his athleticism to succeed in the NBA. I honestly think that's the biggest reason for the heavy amount of jumpers: while the Pistons signed him to play the 3 and encourage the jumpshot, I really believe that he just simply can't attack the basket the way he used to. There's very little to suggest that Smith can be good at PF, only that he can be better than his current atrocious play. On the flipside, there's more evidence that Monroe can be good at PF while being young enough to have some level of growth going forward.

So that's generally why I "hate" Smith. He plays an unattractive style of basketball that is absolutely killing his team, and his production still lags Monroe by a significant margin at PF. And this was already showing BEFORE Smith ever signed in Detroit. This was not a one year thing. This is a downward trend started 3 years ago, and I have little reason to suspect Smith is going to turn it around significantly.

[HeroicKennedy]

To give you an idea of how far divorced from reality Dumars is:

Josh Smith has the 4th worst WS48 this season among starters.
Tayshaun Prince is 1st.

Josh Smith has the 3rd worst TS% this season among starters.
Tayshaun Prince is 1st.

In the last two years, Joe Dumars is responsible for getting these men $82 million in salary. That's right. These guys signed contracts of $28 and $54 million, and they are among the worst starters in the league.

[beau]

I have watched every Piston game, no matter how ugly it was I endured the pain of watching his ugly jumpers brick one after another.

Lets go back to the day of the signing 13 million per year 3 years and an expiring contract after that.... IT DOESNT SOUND bad for an above average PF in his prime. JOSH IS IN HIS prime and is an above average PF; lets not forget this. its not time to learn new things. ITs time to do what you are good at. Josh is not good at shooting. Never will be.

Joe made his bed. Considering no one will touch JSmith's contract, there are several possibilities that would make this team better. Its just up to management to get it done.

[sfballa13]

To give you an idea of how far divorced from reality Dumars is:

Josh Smith has the 4th worst WS48 this season among starters.
Tayshaun Prince is 1st.

Josh Smith has the 3rd worst TS% this season among starters.
Tayshaun Prince is 1st.

In the last two years, Joe Dumars is responsible for getting these men $82 million in salary. That's right. These guys signed contracts of $28 and $54 million, and they are among the worst starters in the league.

Last two years, look at the idiotic moronic stupid deals Joe Dumars has paid out in the last 5-6 years:
- Bynum (2 x)
- Tayshaun
- Rip (literally left the league)
- Wilcox
- Maxiell
- Billups (5M over two years pathetic)
- Jerebko (4.5 M)
- Stuckey (8M)
- Charlie V (8.5M)
- Ben Gordon (11M)
- Nazr Mohammed

Anyone else i forgot? This piece of **** keeps paying out huge deals and screwing our franchise over year after year. Even after we won our first championship he failed miserably getting the proper pieces for our bench when we had the best starting 5 in the league. Dumars is first to blame, then Cheeks.

Ultimately though, if Gores allows Dumars to make moves this trade deadline then proceeds to fire him right after it will be on him for ruining our franchise. Gores should have came in, cleared house, put in Phil Jackson or any other young upcoming GM / coach combo to actually get a system in place to build around.

Only thing we can pray for is the trading of Smith so that we can swing a sign and trade in the offseason with Monroe. More and more i think about it I feel like Hayward for Monroe before or after the deadline makes alot of sense for both teams. Jazz get Monroe to pair next to Favors/Kanter and Pistons get their SF.

[Invictus88]

To give you an idea of how far divorced from reality Dumars is:

Josh Smith has the 4th worst WS48 this season among starters.
Tayshaun Prince is 1st.

Josh Smith has the 3rd worst TS% this season among starters.
Tayshaun Prince is 1st.

In the last two years, Joe Dumars is responsible for getting these men $82 million in salary. That's right. These guys signed contracts of $28 and $54 million, and they are among the worst starters in the league.

Last two years, look at the idiotic moronic stupid deals Joe Dumars has paid out in the last 5-6 years:
- Bynum (2 x)
- Tayshaun
- Rip (literally left the league)
- Wilcox
- Maxiell
- Billups (5M over two years pathetic)
- Jerebko (4.5 M)
- Stuckey (8M)
- Charlie V (8.5M)
- Ben Gordon (11M)
- Nazr Mohammed

Anyone else i forgot? This piece of **** keeps paying out huge deals and screwing our franchise over year after year. Even after we won our first championship he failed miserably getting the proper pieces for our bench when we had the best starting 5 in the league. Dumars is first to blame, then Cheeks.

Ultimately though, if Gores allows Dumars to make moves this trade deadline then proceeds to fire him right after it will be on him for ruining our franchise. Gores should have came in, cleared house, put in Phil Jackson or any other young upcoming GM / coach combo to actually get a system in place to build around.

Only thing we can pray for is the trading of Smith so that we can swing a sign and trade in the offseason with Monroe. More and more i think about it I feel like Hayward for Monroe before or after the deadline makes alot of sense for both teams. Jazz get Monroe to pair next to Favors/Kanter and Pistons get their SF.

I'm all for trading Smith but I don't see how we get anyone productive in return. The most we can hope for is cap relief. If we then trade Monroe for Hayward then who do we have to play PF? Are you imagining a Jorts / Drummond frontcourt?

I hope and pray that in the unlikely event that Smith is traded that Gores then cleans house with the front office and the new GM convinces Monroe to stay -- leaving us where we were before this offseason started + 1 temperamental but hopefully serviceable PG with a LOT of work by the new coach.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic