Welcome to Reality

[tmorgan]

Hello again, fellow Pistons fans, it's been a while.

I took a bit of a hiatus during the second half of the season, because we sucked so bad that it pained me to comment on, let alone actually watch, this collection of misfits. I'm sad to see Joe D go out this way, but I'm certainly not sad to see him go. I'm also a little perturbed that he's not actually "going", but rather scurrying off to a dark corner of the Pistons organization and perhaps still exerting his influence.

I'll be the first to admit I was wrong about plenty of things last off-season, as I didn't think either of our acquisitions would be the trainwreck they actually were. Lesson learned, once again -- hometown fans are almost always worth listening to, and players very rarely change the way they play. Jennings did make some strides as a PG under Cheeks, but his defense is just as bad as advertised and isn't ever going to get any better. I was somewhat disappointed in him, but that disappointment pales in comparison to the utter horror I experienced watching Josh Smith play the stupidest brand of basketball I've quite literally ever seen. It's truly a shame that his athletic gifts are wasted on that ten cent brain of his.

Neither of those two morons is our biggest problem, though. We need a legit front office and a really legit coach if we're ever going to crawl out of this pit of mediocrity. The front office hire needs to come first, and needs to lead to a respectable coach that's willing to come aboard. Once that happens, we need to figure out what to do with two more years of our sieve PG and three more years of our braindead SF/PF. I think we'd all like to dump them both, but I suspect neither has positive trade value right now.

So, do we match on Monroe, try to sign-and-trade him, or just let him walk? Moose is a really interesting case, as he's really not anything but a center defensively, and a non-rim-protector at that, only capable of perhaps average post defense and slightly above-average rebounding for a big. With the future of this team in the hands of the man-child Dre, he has no choice but to play power forward, where he lacks the both the offensive range and the defensive quickness to become a positive difference-maker. Yes, Monroe is an excellent passer for a big, and he does have an assortment of pretty effective post moves, but the former isn't enough to justify his weaknesses, and the latter is going to become even less important as Drummond takes on more and more of the post role. It is my opinion that Monroe has to go -- he's a defensive liability with offensive strengths that we aren't in a position to correctly utilize.

For those that don't want to get rid of Monroe, the typical two arguments I've read are "His high-post passing ability fits great with Drummond" and "Josh Smith sucks and I hate him". For the first, I agree that it's fun to watch them play off each other on offense, but that doesn't mean we can't look for other forwards capable of passing, as there are plenty of them out there. Don't let Monroe's biggest strength blind you to his many weaknesses, one of which I haven't even discussed yet -- although he's a pretty smart guy, he has zero inclination towards leadership. He's quiet (except when he's complaining about calls), he's mostly a loner, and he never seems happy to be here. As for the second, that Josh Smith sucks, that's pretty much true, but that's not a good reason to invest in Monroe -- that's the reason to get rid of Smith. Last I checked, there are other power forwards in the NBA we might acquire.

I guess that's why I bothered writing all this, to articulate a position I don't think I've seen anyone else bother to mention -- I think we need to get rid of both of these guys. Monroe has value, so I don't advocate just letting him walk, but I do think a sign-and-trade after the draft for some useful asset(s) would be a good idea. Josh Smith probably doesn't have value, so that's trickier, and I'm not willing to go all Ben Gordon and attach assets to jettison him, but if we can somehow get rid of him, even if it's for nothing in return, I'm all for it. You'll note that a lot of the best-player-available projections for our probable #8 pick are big guys, and this opens up a spot for one of them to step right in. Sure, we'll probably end up giving Charlotte a pretty good pick next year, but that's a sunk cost and shouldn't be brooded over too much.

Summary, for those afraid of the wall of text -- get rid of both Smoove and Moose, get a quality front office/coach combo somehow, and truly begin the rebuild with KCP, Dre, and our pick.

[engelbert321]

Great post.

[DBC10]

I agree. Plan 1A for me is re-signing Monroe and gauge what we have next season with our rookies, draft picks or even new trades/FAs.

Plan 1C is letting Monroe go for whatever rentals we get out of it (hilarity ensues for rest of the league) and also trading Smith since he's no better fit than Monroe is arguably. We need a re-do on the Smith acquisition at the very least.

Otherwise, great post. Smith doesn't belong here and Monroe doesn't either. That's a nice compromise I can back, despite the fact that I think Monroe has a decent place here IMO, but that's a different argument.

[ImHeisenberg]

Nice post. I'm not bullish on moving Monroe, but you did a solid job of making your case.

I think Smith can be moved without attaching a pick. Rudy Gay was traded this season, and was regarded as having one of the worst deals in the league at the time. I believe Smith can be moved. You may not get anything better than an expiring contracts, or a 2-year deal with a lesser player, but I'd take it just for the positive impact of not having Smith around anymore.

Look at Toronto- they had addition by subtraction. Took away all those bad shots Gay and Bargnani were taking, and they finished #3 in the east as a result, without bringing back any game changers in those trades.

[irishfury6]

Good post. I will have to admit its the first time as a Pistons fan. I've been a fan since I was a kid during the bad boys. That I actually really dislike Brandon Jenning and Josh Smith so much it makes it hard for me to watch the Pistons. I always thought I could tolerate anyone on my fav team but the way these two guys play basketball is just . I can even tolerate having bad players on my team. Talented idiot players that make me despise the game of basketball is what these two knuckleheads did.

[Hotmayo]

Your post is what I've been thinking of Monroe for many years now. I'm just too lazy to type it all out n glad you took the time to put it in words. Good post overall.

[rmfc]

Fantastic post, tmorgan.

We need a legit front office and a really legit coach if we're ever going to crawl out of this pit of mediocrity. The front office hire needs to come first, and needs to lead to a respectable coach that's willing to come aboard. .....

Summary, for those afraid of the wall of text -- get rid of both Smoove and Moose, get a quality front office/coach combo somehow, and truly begin the rebuild with KCP, Dre, and our pick.

Agreed. I'd hate to see another player get overpaid. However, if there is no value to be had in a trade for Monroe, I'd rather keep him.

Josh Smith and Jennings-- both need to go first.

[Ghost]

I agree, at first I only wanted to get rid of Monroe via trade for draft pick... Then I decided that getting rid of both and finding a new PF to play with Drummond would be the best idea. Someone capable of playing defense vs 4s, stretching the floors, and being a leader (plus if they're an athletic specimen, that'd be a bonus).

I'm excited to see our GM and HC hires, I hope they're good. I'm going to be optimistic about it!

[jakebernat]

I agree, at first I only wanted to get rid of Monroe via trade for draft pick... Then I decided that getting rid of both and finding a new PF to play with Drummond would be the best idea. Someone capable of playing defense vs 4s, stretching the floors, and being a leader (plus if they're an athletic specimen, that'd be a bonus).

I'm excited to see our GM and HC hires, I hope they're good. I'm going to be optimistic about it!

sounds like you want gordon in the draft. I wouldn't complain

[Q00]

I agree, at first I only wanted to get rid of Monroe via trade for draft pick... Then I decided that getting rid of both and finding a new PF to play with Drummond would be the best idea. Someone capable of playing defense vs 4s, stretching the floors, and being a leader (plus if they're an athletic specimen, that'd be a bonus).

I'm excited to see our GM and HC hires, I hope they're good. I'm going to be optimistic about it!

sounds like you want gordon in the draft. I wouldn't complain

Gordon or Vonleh would both be great fits next to Drummond. Gordon is a little on the light side though and I'd prefer Vonleh. I think at least one will be there at 8 though.

[tmorgan]

Gordon can't shoot at all -- he'd be bad fit with Drummond in my opinion. We need someone with a respectable J at the 4. If we can't get that and draft Gordon based on heart and athletic potential, we're going to need some really, really good shooters at the 2 and 3. I don't think that's KCP, who is more of a scorer than a shooter, it seems (more of a defender than either, really), so I'd rather get a set of forwards that can't be left alone out of the paint. Singler's decent enough as a backup in that role, but if Singler is your starting 3, you probably aren't any good.

Given that we're still developing KCP and Drummond (and potentially Monroe, although that ship is getting close to leaving the dock), I'm completely OK with moving our pick, along with Smith and/or Jennings, for a young vet instead. A good one, of course.

[Snakebites]

I think the simple reality is that we have to match Monroe for now.

I don't think a sign and trade is really a viable option at this point, and we certainly can't let an asset like him simply walk.

At this point I favor matching Monroe and pushing hard to deal Smith. If (when?) dumping Smith fails I favor bringing Smith off the bench and giving him a chance to contribute in that role. If he either refuses or fails in this role he can simply be benched ala Villanueva, and at least he won't be actively hurting us in the court.

In the meantime, give Monroe and Drummond a proper tryout together with the knowledge that we may at some point have to shop Monroe and get value in return if he doesn't work out.

[kurtis48239]

I agree with your post for the most part,but I would at least like to see what this team would look like with smith starting at pf with a real sf and sg (depending on kcp developing more).I would like to see smith in that environment 1st befor I hop on the (smith is the problem for everything) wagon,Ive seen what monroe has.For those who will say (we saw what he had at pf in atl),Thats atl,and for those who wish to keep spouting off that hes always been a **** player,well,theirs nothing left to say.


EDIT-I will say iam not entirely turned off to the idea of dumping both and getting someone like smith,but with range,if it comes to that.

Good post.

[King Bugs]

I guess that's why I bothered writing all this, to articulate a position I don't think I've seen anyone else bother to mention -- I think we need to get rid of both of these guys.

I am on this bandwagon 100%. The problem with trying to articulate this opinion around here is that Josh Smith has been made our new scapegoat and when anyone goes against the Josh Smith scapegoating, by saying it isn't fair to put so much of the blame on him or mention how Monroe is also a liability they get labeled a "Josh Smith apologist". Which couldn't be further from the truth (well at least in my case) because I don't like either player and would like to see both of them on different teams next season.

[Warspite]

I see no downside to resigning Monroe. Bigs are always in demand and he will fetch plenty. Moving Smith and then putting pressure on jennings is the key. There isnt 1 trade or draft or FA signing that will fix this but 2 of each will. We cant be contenders in 1 offseason. We can win 50 games in 2016 however.

[mercury]

I see no downside to resigning Monroe. Bigs are always in demand and he will fetch plenty. Moving Smith and then putting pressure on jennings is the key. There isnt 1 trade or draft or FA signing that will fix this but 2 of each will. We cant be contenders in 1 offseason. We can win 50 games in 2016 however.

Can agree with this... we're not looking for overnight fixes... for sure signing GM is the right move...
I appreciate that several posters recognize the downside of keeping Monroe at PF... it's unfortunate because he's a very talented center... it's inevitable that advanced scouts will expose his lack of mobility on defense.... if you're soley focused on offense this is your man.

[tmorgan]

I hope no one is getting the impression that I don't want to re-sign Monroe. I want to sign him and trade him elsewhere, where he can play center, pass, and hopefully have someone at the 4 to help him out defensively (OKC seems like a fantastic fit, but they don't have the cap space).

[Ghost]

I agree, at first I only wanted to get rid of Monroe via trade for draft pick... Then I decided that getting rid of both and finding a new PF to play with Drummond would be the best idea. Someone capable of playing defense vs 4s, stretching the floors, and being a leader (plus if they're an athletic specimen, that'd be a bonus).

I'm excited to see our GM and HC hires, I hope they're good. I'm going to be optimistic about it!

sounds like you want gordon in the draft. I wouldn't complain

Definitely not, Gordon is just like Josh Smith.

Vonleh or Payne would be fine.

[theBigLip]

Nice thread. Smith I don't consider an asset, so if we can trade him for expirings, fine. Monroe is an asset. Maybe he doesn't fit well with Drummond. But we certainly can't just let him walk, so a sign/trade makes a lot of sense.

[ImHeisenberg]

Nice thread. Smith I don't consider an asset, so if we can trade him for expirings, fine. Monroe is an asset. Maybe he doesn't fit well with Drummond. But we certainly can't just let him walk, so a sign/trade makes a lot of sense.

I agree. Monroe, even making ~$14 million, is more valuable than Smith. He's younger, and better at what he does. His defense is an issue, but that's one flaw against Smith just being plain awful for a team.

I'd have no doubt that Monroe could be easily shopped for quality talent, even on the mini-max type deal that players can sign coming off their rookie deals. Monroe definitely should not be allowed to walk this summer, that would be a huge failure upon this organization, regardless of which of Gores' minions is calling the shots.