Just a remind...this is on Gores.

OneBadMutha · Post #1 » by **OneBadMutha** » Wed May 21, 2014 2:43 am

The dead horse, Joe Dumars, is getting trashed everywhere for his one last F'up.

Dumars has had his share of screw ups...but this one is on Gores. Don't let him escape it.

1. BG could have been amnestied. There was no rush to get him off the books when they did. They could've waited the season out to see if someone would take him for a more protected pick...or simply amnestied him at the time they identified the free agent they wanted. By giving up much to get BG off the books, they were basically forced into spending money for a win-now push. The only reason for the timing of the trade combined with what they gave up was that Gores saw it as a chance to save money.

2. There didn't need to be a playoffs or bust ultimatum. It just so happened that the handcuffs came off on the brink of a bad free agent class and poor draft class.

3. When it was clear to everyone that last season was lost and Joe was stripped of his power prior to the trade deadline, it was then in Gores hands to dump players like Stuckey and get a low draft pick for him...and ensure a few more losses in the process. Gores fired the coach and neutered the GM. He was 100% in control. Pistons should have been developing KCP instead of playing Stuckey for wins. Those extra wins with the help of vets over young guys ultimately cost Detroit.

I still believe Gores is one of the most incompetent owners in all of sports. He has no idea how to run a basketball franchise. If Van Gundy isn't a miracle worker at GM in his first try, this franchise will be buried for a long time. Question is, do we even care about Drummond's development when he's probably going to have his foot out the door after next season?

Post #2 » by **dVs33** » Wed May 21, 2014 2:48 am

keeping it simple, Joe went out and spent a lot of money on horrible players that don't fit.
the trade could have worked out much better than it did, so that's on joe.

Post #3 » by **theBigLip** » Wed May 21, 2014 2:54 am

This is on Dumars. I might have made the same trade all over again. Really. This is like the Billups-AI trade all over again. It wasn't the trade that was horrible - it was what was done immediately afterward that made the trades look all f--ked up.

We trade Billups for AI to get cap space. We got it. What did we do with it? Get BG and CV. If we had got some good young pieces with that cap space, they would likely still be on our team. The aftermath f--ked us, not the initial trade.

Same thing with the trade to Charlotte. We traded BG and got some cap space. It worked. And with the cap space and getting a couple of good players, we will be a playoff team for sure, so the first round pick would be in the high teens or even 20. But we wasted the money on JSmith and Jennings, and never got a good coach, so we didn't make the playoffs, so we end up giving up a good pick. Had we spent the money wisely, we'd be as good as Washington or Toronto, and maybe even made the second round. But nope. And now we lost a good pick.

I'm just glad to be done with this. No more Dumars excuses - time to move on.

wire28 · Post #4 » by **wire28** » Wed May 21, 2014 2:59 am

Its alright. All we can do is move forward. I for one look forward to hearing Van Gundy's hoarse voice shouting NO as Josh pulls up for 3 on the fast break for 82 games next season.

princeofpalace · Post #5 » by **princeofpalace** » Wed May 21, 2014 3:01 am

Its on Joe for signing Gordon in the first place
Its on Gores for being too cheap to amnesty Gordon

However, the fans are the ones feeling the frustration. This better be a turn around season for us via free agency, trades and coaching because being a fan of this team is too hard- there is no payoff its just BS after BS

Kilo · Post #6 » by **Kilo** » Wed May 21, 2014 3:01 am

I'm still elated with Stan Van Gundy going forward and everything that happened to this point effected that happening - the whole butterfly effect phenomenon.

NickLidstrom · Post #7 » by **NickLidstrom** » Wed May 21, 2014 3:05 am

You're making a lot of pretty baseless assumptions about what Joe *had* to do based on things you think Gores probably did.

You have no clue what role Gores played in trading Ben Gordon. What you do know is that Joe Dumars, as GM, made the trade.

You don't know how much pressure Gores put on Joe to compete now. What you do know is that Joe decided it was a great idea to spend his cap space on Jennings and Smith.

You definitely don't know that Gores played a role in Stuckey getting minutes over KCP. That's just complete speculation.

There's a lot to be mad about with the Pistons right now, but I don't see Gores as the main issue.

Post #8 » by **dVs33** » Wed May 21, 2014 3:16 am

I think it's safe to say Gores wants to be competitive ASAP, but it was Dumars that pulled the trigger on the Smith signing and jennings signing. The only thing Gores did was trust Dumars to make smart decisions.

Pharaoh · Post #9 » by **Pharaoh** » Wed May 21, 2014 3:21 am

OneBadMutha wrote:The dead horse, Joe Dumars, is getting trashed everywhere for his one last F'up.

Dumars has had his share of screw ups...but this one is on Gores. Don't let him escape it.

1. BG could have been amnestied. There was no rush to get him off the books when they did. They could've waited the season out to see if someone would take him for a more protected pick...or simply amnestied him at the time they identified the free agent they wanted. By giving up much to get BG off the books, they were basically forced into spending money for a win-now push. The only reason for the timing of the trade combined with what they gave up was that Gores saw it as a chance to save money.

How did the BG trade save Gores money? He still had to pay Maggette $10+ mil that season....and it gave us a load of cap space for Gores to spend even more!

Gores did not ring Charlotte and offer the pick & BG for Maggette! That's on Joe...who finally had an owner willing to spend! So Joe did what it took to get cap space in order to sign guys that could get us to the playoffs.

2. There didn't need to be a playoffs or bust ultimatum. It just so happened that the handcuffs came off on the brink of a bad free agent class and poor draft class.

Bad free agent class? Millsap, Smith, Iguodala, Redick, Jennings, Calderon, Ellis...all changed teams! Korver stayed in Atlanta.

Joe had the cap space & assets (Knight, Middleton, KCP) to make positive moves...but he failed.

Joe also failed to find a decent coach...again!

3. When it was clear to everyone that last season was lost and Joe was stripped of his power prior to the trade deadline, it was then in Gores hands to dump players like Stuckey and get a low draft pick for him...and ensure a few more losses in the process. Gores fired the coach and neutered the GM. He was 100% in control. Pistons should have been developing KCP instead of playing Stuckey for wins. Those extra wins with the help of vets over young guys ultimately cost Detroit.

You're assuming that there were quality assets offered for Stuckey.

You're also assuming that the #8 pick is going to be a stud that we'll forever regret missing out on. History indicates that's a little bit of a leap.

I still believe Gores is one of the most incompetent owners in all of sports. He has no idea how to run a basketball franchise. If Van Gundy isn't a miracle worker at GM in his first try, this franchise will be buried for a long time. Question is, do we even care about Drummond's development when he's probably going to have his foot out the door after next season?

Restricted free agency being what it is helps us retain Drummond.

SVG apparently has a vision & blueprint for where this franchise should be & its modeled after Miami & San Antonio. All aspects of the basketball operations are moving toward the same goal...which is to continually get better, improve & surround the main players with quality staff.

It seems you're a little upset about losing the #8 pick & need to vent...have at it but don't expect a lot of people to agree with you.

Joe Dumars is responsible for the hole Gores wants SVG to dig us out of.

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Kilo · Post #10 » by **Kilo** » Wed May 21, 2014 3:27 am

^Saved Gores money in that instead of amnestying Gordon and then spending that new cap space, he traded Gordon away to create the cap space to spend.

He saved himself around $15M via trade vs Amnesty.

Clarity · Post #11 » by **Clarity** » Wed May 21, 2014 3:46 am

Definitely on Dumars.

He traded Gordon to clear up cap space so he could sign the 2 dumbest Pistons in the history of the franchise.

DCintheD · Post #12 » by **DCintheD** » Wed May 21, 2014 4:46 am

I put equal blame on Gores' and Dumars.

Lets hope SVG saves this franchise from mediocrity.

russkopp · Post #13 » by **russkopp** » Wed May 21, 2014 5:06 am

Every GM makes mistakes in drafts and free agency. Dumars made the same signings/trades OVER AND OVER AGAIN. He never learned. If we knew for a fact that Gores refused to amnesty Gordon it's still Dumars fault. A big chain reaction.

Stubborn Loyalty to some of the 2004 squad->AI for Chauncey->Stuckey being the future for 1000yrs->BG and CV->Maghette trade->Smennings. Many similar situations all while the team was stuck in NBA limbo.

We're lucky we won in 04 and we're lucky Dumars was competent enough to take Moose, Dre and KCP. That still isn't a bad core but a more balanced roster is vital to its success.
One thing has made my happy tonight, that's knowing Joe Dumars went to bed thinking, "why did I eat so many orders of chili cheese fries?"

Q00 · Post #14 » by **Q00** » Wed May 21, 2014 5:08 am

DCintheD wrote:I put equal blame on Gores' and Dumars.

This.

While Joe may have concocting the trade, ultimately Gores had to sign off on it, and I'm sure he knew the value of a 1st round pick when he agreed to let Joe trade it.

When Joe presented him with that deal, he had 3 options. Either keep the pick and amnesty Gordon instead. Take the deal as presented. Or tell Joe he's doing neither and Gordon will ride the bench until his contract expires. He chose to sign off on the deal that was presented to him. So its on Joe for drawing up the deal. Its on Gores for agreeing to it.

Considering Joe has already been fired for his past mistakes, I don't see the point of people still taking their anger out on him. He can't be fired again. Gores can't be fired, and you can't reverse the trade. So complaining about it still is just wasted energy at this point.

Pharaoh · Post #15 » by **Pharaoh** » Wed May 21, 2014 6:34 am

The one point missing in all of this:

Gores has stated he wants the office to run basketball operations.

Is it a leap to assume that at the time of the BG trade Joe was doing just that? I mean independently of Gores?

Not much point having "quality" people run your business if you're going to over-rule them on everything or expect them to come to you to make every decision.

Do we know that Joe had to go to Gores way back when the BG trade was made?

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Finn McCool · Post #16 » by **Finn McCool** » Wed May 21, 2014 7:12 am

If I was Van Gundy, I'd fire myself as coach. I'd be making $7 mill. a yr. for a Front office position and wouldn't have as much blame.

Heck, I might make it the full 5 years and then kept on as an advisor.

ChainLink · Post #17 » by **ChainLink** » Wed May 21, 2014 7:25 am

It's on both of them. I guess I was one of the last Dumars defenders, but losing the #8 pick this year for Josh Smith makes my blood boil. Thank God he delivered us a championship and gave us some really fun years with the Goin to Work crew, and during this turmoil he at least laid out a decent foundation for SVG...but seriously, SCREW YOU JoeD.

Gores could have easily put out this fire too by just amnestying Gordon. Or letting us tear everything down instead of making playoff demands that would encourage (or should I say "force") Joe to go with a "quick retool not rebuild" plan. Can't put band-aids and expect your ship to not sink.

Navas · Post #18 » by **Navas** » Wed May 21, 2014 12:18 pm

Is it on Joe? Yes and no. Yes because Gordon was awful, no because the lottery is that: a crapshoot.

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fekz · Post #19 » by **fekz** » Wed May 21, 2014 1:22 pm

Guys, things don't happen in a vacuum. Who's to say that we get Drummond if Joe amnesties BG? you never know how things will play out even with small changes in a course.

That said I'm glad Joe is gone and I think the current lottery process is more to blame (CLE #1 times in four years really????) than anything else.

The Penguin · Post #20 » by **The Penguin** » Wed May 21, 2014 1:38 pm

I'm not upset about us losing our pick. It's clear now Dumars lucked into a group of guys who had massive chips on their shoulders and thrived playing together. Outside of that nucleus and lucking into the Monroe & Drummond picks he's repeatedly made the same mistakes over and over. I'm numb to his ineptitude now.

I'm upset that Cleveland got the #1 pick for the 3rd out of 4 years. If the NBA was on the up and up this would be a catalyst to get them to display more transparency and pull the numbers live or completely overhaul the system. Absent that action I have a hard time believing we haven't been wasting a lot of hot air discussing something that's closer to the WWE than it is the NFL/MLB.

It's a broken league. 1/3rd of the league actively tries to lose games as their strategy. The league "randomly" assigns the top draft picks to franchises that always seem to conveniently line up with available prospects. Players can't wait to get to cities like NY-Miami-LA-Houston (and who can blame them). Refs have admitted to fixing games and the league has vetoed trades like a drunk fantasy football commissioner. If you are a fan of a small market team your only hope is to 1) have an absolutely brilliant basketball mind running your team (and there's only so many of those) or 2) have a great player grow up within 100 miles of your city and be draft eligible in a year that coincides with a bad year for your team.

I've been a diehard NBA fan for 23 years. A large part of that fanhood died last night. Absent an overhaul to the lottery system that discourages tanking and provides transparency to the top draft picks I have a very hard time believing this league isn't a rigged game. There's no point in being emotionally or financially invested in something that's fixed.