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Just took some time to run the math on this. If the Pistons renounce every FA but Monroe and decline the team options on Jorts and Billups, we'll have 13,746,817 in cap space. The maximum annual increase is 4.5% of the base (first year of the contract) salary, so the biggest contract we could offer is $58,698,908 over 4 years (or $14,674,727/year). This is potentially useful info when considering attempts to outbid a team for an RFA such as Parsons or Hayward.

JustinSane wrote:Just took some time to run the math on this. If the Pistons renounce every FA but Monroe and decline the team options on Jorts and Billups, we'll have 13,746,817 in cap space. The maximum annual increase is 4.5% of the base (first year of the contract) salary, so the biggest contract we could offer is $58,698,908 over 4 years (or $14,674,727/year). This is potentially useful info when considering attempts to outbid a team for an RFA such as Parsons or Hayward.

Now you just need to find out what a max deal for a RFA is.

If they've been in the league for at least 3 seasons, it's $15.8 million first year, with 4.5% increases. Unless I'm wrong. Which is possible (I got this with my math and Larry Coon's CBA FAQ, so trust at your own peril).

JustinSane wrote:If they've been in the league for at least 3 seasons, it's $15.8 million first year, with 4.5% increases. Unless I'm wrong. Which is possible (I got this with my math and Larry Coon's CBA FAQ, so trust at your own peril).

Is that true for guys coming off rook deals? Wall's and DMC's max extensions start next year at $13.7m. Eric Gordon was the last RFA I can remember who had a max matched, and he started with $13.5m.

My not-every-informed guess is that a max rookie RFA is something like: 13.5/14.2/15/15.7. (Sorry don't have the time to double check right now!)

Given the guys available this season, I think we're best served splitting our cap space and trying to acquire the right role players.

The big ticket free agents in this class are either not accessable to us (Lebron, Melo, etc.) or would cost to much (Lowry, Stephenson, etc.).

If the Pistons cannot move Josh Smith, then don't sign Parson. You throw that money at Hayward and hope Utah don't match.

Jennings
Hayward
Josh
Monroe
Drum

World Domination!

Per Stein, Chauncey may be joining Flip Saunders staff as an assistant coach... frees up 2.5M

HotelVitale wrote:

JustinSane wrote:If they've been in the league for at least 3 seasons, it's $15.8 million first year, with 4.5% increases. Unless I'm wrong. Which is possible (I got this with my math and Larry Coon's CBA FAQ, so trust at your own peril).

Is that true for guys coming off rook deals? Wall's and DMC's max extensions start next year at $13.7m. Eric Gordon was the last RFA I can remember who had a max matched, and he started with $13.5m.

My not-every-informed guess is that a max rookie RFA is something like: 13.5/14.2/15/15.7. (Sorry don't have the time to double check right now!)

Don't believe those numbers just yet. A max deal for someone coming off of a rookie deal is 25% (Though some can qualify for 30%) of the salary cap. Since we have no clue what the cap is next year we don't know where max extensions for Wall and DMC will start.

If Larry Coon is right and the cap goes up to $63 million next year, a 25% max contract will be $15.75 million in its first year.

(Pardon any subconscious racial typing that is invariably pointed out on the internet, but) does anybody think Parsons/Hayward are positionally/role redundant with Singler and Jerebko on the roster?

I have a site... although I do not know how to post it. It suggested that the max offer will be 13.7 mil. and can be elevated by 15% in each season. I may be mistaken, but if I read it correctly... the max 4 yr deal would be around $66 million.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q44

See if this works for ya.

Irate wrote:

HotelVitale wrote:Is that true for guys coming off rook deals? Wall's and DMC's max extensions start next year at $13.7m. Eric Gordon was the last RFA I can remember who had a max matched, and he started with $13.5m.
My not-every-informed guess is that a max rookie RFA is something like: 13.5/14.2/15/15.7. (Sorry don't have the time to double check right now!)

Don't believe those numbers just yet. A max deal for someone coming off of a rookie deal is 25% (Though some can qualify for 30%) of the salary cap. Since we have no clue what the cap is next year we don't know where max extensions for Wall and DMC will start. If Larry Coon is right and the cap goes up to $63 million next year, a 25% max contract will be $15.75 million in its first year.

Thanks, that sounds right. (Wonder where the numbers for Wall/DMC that are cited everywhere come from--even with the cap where it's at right now, 25% would be closer to $14.7m than $13.7m.)

So the starting max should be between $14.75m and $15.75m, depending on where the cap falls.

Alexander wrote:(Pardon any subconscious racial typing that is invariably pointed out on the internet, but) does anybody think Parsons/Hayward are positionally/role redundant with Singler and Jerebko on the roster?

Do you think Jerebko & Singler are similar?


From my view Parsons is a superior version of Jerebko (more of a stretch 4/ who can play some 3 than a true 3) and Hayward is a superior version of Singler (can play the 2 & 3, is a strong ball handler/play maker for a wing). Hayward was a pg who hit a late growth spurt to put him to 6'8", almost like Shaun Livingston with a jump shot. Obviously none of them are Tony Allen defensively, but Parsons and Hayward are clearly starters and Singler is likely better suited as a backup while Jerebko should really focus on learning to waive a towel.

BadMofoPimp wrote:If the Pistons cannot move Josh Smith, then don't sign Parson. You throw that money at Hayward and hope Utah don't match!

Even if we're pretending that a max to Hayward is reasonable, it'd be hard to see the Jazz letting him go. They have no wing depth and their core is even younger than ours. They can't afford to let their current best player go when he's in the same age range as everyone else on the team that matters. Add to that that there are no wings available in the draft range they're at this year. Seems like they need Hayward even more than we do.

HotelVitale wrote:

BadMofoPimp wrote:If the Pistons cannot move Josh Smith, then don't sign Parson. You throw that money at Hayward and hope Utah don't match!

Even if we're pretending that a max to Hayward is reasonable, it'd be hard to see the Jazz letting him go. They have no wing depth and their core is even younger than ours. They can't afford to let their current best player go when he's in the same age range as everyone else on the team that matters. Add to that that there are no wings available in the draft range they're at this year. Seems like they need Hayward even more than we do.

This will end up being why the Pistons will target a 2nd level tier of free agents who will likely be around the $5-8 mil range.

The cap estimate next year I'd seen was $63.2 million, which is where the $15.8 million base year max offer came from. Max extensions kicking in now from previous years may be lower because they were based off 25% of the salary cap at the time the contract was signed, and the salary cap will have increased by this offseason. But that's just my guess.

Parsons/Hayward are I suppose a bit role redundant with Singler/Jerebko, but they are both proven starters with better aggregate and per minute overall production. Hayward is a quietly crappy shooter though. Josh Smith last year: 16.4 PPG, 41.9% FG%, 26.4% 3FG%. Hayward last year: 16.2 PPG, 41.3% FG%, 30.4% 3FG%. Like Smith, Hayward fills the stat sheet in other areas and is a notably good creator for his position, but I think if he's duplicative with anyone on the roster, it's Smith. Personally, I'm unconvinced that's the player we should be trying to duplicate. Singler and Jerebko both shot better from the floor and (much) better from 3 than either Hayward or Smith, so if the goal is to spread the floor, signing Hayward is actually a step in the wrong direction.

I agree with Snakebites I think that the wise course is just to sign a few role players (preferably to one year contracts), but would not be opposed to throwing our cap space at Lowry either. We'd need to overpay him, he's played like a star for one year out of seven year NBA career, and he likes his current team, but he's the only FA we've got a reasonable shot at getting that produced last season at a level commensurate with a $14.5 million/year contract. It would be a very real gamble however. The bet would be not just that Lowry would be a good citizen and maintain last season's level of play, but that Singler can be an adequate starter at the 3, KCP at the 2, and that Monroe/Drummond/Smith would work as a rotation at the 4/5.

Piston Prince wrote:

Alexander wrote:(Pardon any subconscious racial typing that is invariably pointed out on the internet, but) does anybody think Parsons/Hayward are positionally/role redundant with Singler and Jerebko on the roster?

From my view Parsons is a superior version of Jerebko (more of a stretch 4/ who can play some 3 than a true 3) and Hayward is a superior version of Singler (can play the 2 & 3, is a strong ball handler/play maker for a wing). Hayward was a pg who hit a late growth spurt to put him to 6'8", almost like Shaun Livingston with a jump shot. Obviously none of them are Tony Allen defensively, but Parsons and Hayward are clearly starters and Singler is likely better suited as a backup while Jerebko should really focus on learning to waive a towel.

I have to disagree with these characterizations. Parsons is a SF through and through--he can shoot, slash, and cut and he doesn't post up or rebound very well. Hayward's handle isn't particularly strong nor does he have great vision--he's definitely not a Shaun Livingston style PG. He's patient and tries to make plays but he's also pretty slow and can't create without someone else making space for him.

I would say they're both guys who can hit 3s and midrange shots and also take it to the rack if they have a lane or some space from a PnR. I actually think Parsons is the better passer, though he's had fewer plays run for him as the chief ball handler, and that Parsons is currently a better offensive player overall. Hayward's a few years younger and he hasn't had the opportunity to play with a lineup of good offensive players. It's clear that he should be a 3rd option type, but we don't know if he'll be really good at that or just okay. Definitely agree that both have way more ability than JJ or Singler.

Alexander wrote:(Pardon any subconscious racial typing that is invariably pointed out on the internet, but) does anybody think Parsons/Hayward are positionally/role redundant with Singler and Jerebko on the roster?

I lol'd at the part in parentheses.

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For anybody interested these are this year's shooting splits for Parsons and Hayward:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/haywago01/shooting/2014/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parsoch01/shooting/2014/

HotelVitale wrote:

Irate wrote:

HotelVitale wrote:Is that true for guys coming off rook deals? Wall's and DMC's max extensions start next year at $13.7m. Eric Gordon was the last RFA I can remember who had a max matched, and he started with $13.5m.
My not-every-informed guess is that a max rookie RFA is something like: 13.5/14.2/15/15.7. (Sorry don't have the time to double check right now!)

Don't believe those numbers just yet. A max deal for someone coming off of a rookie deal is 25% (Though some can qualify for 30%) of the salary cap. Since we have no clue what the cap is next year we don't know where max extensions for Wall and DMC will start. If Larry Coon is right and the cap goes up to $63 million next year, a 25% max contract will be $15.75 million in its first year.

Thanks, that sounds right. (Wonder where the numbers for Wall/DMC that are cited everywhere come from--even with the cap where it's at right now, 25% would be closer to $14.7m than $13.7m.)

So the starting max should be between $14.75m and $15.75m, depending on where the cap falls.

Even though it calls for max contracts of 25% it really wasn't 25% in past years. So they got the $13.7 million number from this:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q16

2 They use a different cap calculation to determine the maximum salaries, which is based on 42.14% of projected BRI rather than 44.74%. In 2005 the sides negotiated a different formula for setting the salary cap but not maximum salaries, so the two became decoupled, and this continued in the 2011 agreement. For this reason the maximum salaries are not actually 25%, 30% or 35% of the cap, and instead are a slightly lower amount. For example, even though the salary cap for 2011-12 is $58.044 million and 25% of this amount is $14.511 million, the 0-6 year maximum salary is actually $12,922,194. In addition, for 2012-13 a 5.8% increase in maximum salaries was agreed to, even though the salary cap stayed the same as 2011-12.

HotelVitale wrote:

JustinSane wrote:If they've been in the league for at least 3 seasons, it's $15.8 million first year, with 4.5% increases. Unless I'm wrong. Which is possible (I got this with my math and Larry Coon's CBA FAQ, so trust at your own peril).

Is that true for guys coming off rook deals? Wall's and DMC's max extensions start next year at $13.7m. Eric Gordon was the last RFA I can remember who had a max matched, and he started with $13.5m.

My not-every-informed guess is that a max rookie RFA is something like: 13.5/14.2/15/15.7. (Sorry don't have the time to double check right now!)

With a 7% increase in the salary cap you get a 7% increase in Max deals as well.