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Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:43 pm
by GSR121
We all want to see the Pistons get better, the question is how to do it. A slower rebuild, blow it up and rebuild with two or three players even if that means taking some lumps (bad contracts in trades or another bad season for draft picks) to free up cap space and acquire younger assets. Or, Retool quickly by trading away only a few players to make the playoffs and wait out the bad contracts? Both strategies could be valid. What do you prefer and how would you do it? Post your ides including trades, free agency, Draft picks and any thing else.
I prefer to do it as fast as possible. I don't want to go through too many more seasons like the last two, I am willing to deal with one or two more IF I can see that we are headed in the right direction. So here is my plan...
Let Stuckey, CV, and Billups go.
Match any offer for Monroe, unless he is given a max offer (doubtful) and even then he "might be worth more as a trade piece after resigning him than he is in a sign and trade deal.
Offer Gordon Hayward a four year deal around 10-12 mil a year. Do this before resigning Monroe so we still have the cap room to do so.
Trade number one.
Detroit out: Jonas Jerebko
NYN out: Raymond Felton, and Tim Hardaway Jr.
Detroit gets an asset in Hardaway Jr., and New York gets 2015 cap room.
Trade Number two.
Detroit out: Brandon Jennings
LAL out. Steve Nash
Detroit gets cap space a year earlier, LAL get a player that can contribute on a nightly basis for a guy that is hurt most of the time. Nash might retire, we could trade him to a contender at the deadline, or trade him to Toronto (Nash plays his last year in Canada, Toronto goes for it for PR reasons).
Trade Josh smith to either Boston (Green and Bass), Houston (Lin, Garcia, and Motiejunas) or any one else that misses out on Mello and will take him for expiring contracts or young assets.
Draft Mitch McGary, I feel he would be a good backup big for us. Assuming his back checks out, he runs the floor well, rebounds fairly well, and can score. I feel he would be a decent project to pick up in the second round if he is still there.
Pistons line up after
PG: Felton, Bynum, Siva
SG: KCP, Hardaway Jr,
SF: Hayward, Singler Datome
PF: Monroe, McGary, Mitchell
C: Drummond, Jorts
Bench/retired: Nash
At the end of next season Nash, Bynum, Jorts will all be gone, and Felton will be a expiring contract.
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:02 pm
by Kilo
Monroe/Jennings for Rondo. Boston uses #6 to draft Smart or Exum (whichever one is left on the board).
Come out of nowhere to sign Melo.
Rondo
KCP
Anthony
Smith
Drummond
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:25 pm
by ImHeisenberg
Dumars put this team in an awful position with the Smith and Jennings deals, taking off right after the Gordon and Villanueva deals.
Considering Gores' mentality and the kind of guy SVG is, we shouldn't expect anything like a rebuild. They want to get pieces around Drummond that fit and become consistently more competitive as time goes forward.
They aren't rebuilding, they're building. Sure, the foundation is sitting on quicksand, but that's what they're going to do either way.
In all honesty, this team is just a couple smart trades and/or signings away from being in the playoffs. Most of that has to do with how immensely awful the east is, but that's the reality we live in.
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:27 pm
by ImHeisenberg
GSR121 wrote:Trade number one.
Detroit out: Jonas Jerebko
NYN out: Raymond Felton, and Tim Hardaway Jr.
There's all of about zero probability of that happening.
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:56 am
by GSR121
ImHeisenberg wrote:GSR121 wrote:Trade number one.
Detroit out: Jonas Jerebko
NYN out: Raymond Felton, and Tim Hardaway Jr.
There's all of about zero probability of that happening.
If we did not get Hardaway Jr. it would not be a deal breaker. They would have to include some kind of compensation to take on Felton and his extra year. Maybe a protected first round pick, Shumpert or the like. If NYN loose Mello I feel they will want the draft picks more than Hardaway Jr. he seems to be a 3pt specialist and not too interested in anything else at this point. But others may disagree and see him as more, my interest is he fit a need (3pt shooting) and was a "local" product, not much else.
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:05 am
by GSR121
@ Kilo, I don't see Mello as an option for us and I don't like Rondo. Rondo would be good on a veteran team but I don't see him as a leader, you need someone to reign him in. I think Rondo, Mello, and Smith on the same team would be a disaster! Each would be looking for his shot instead of working as a team. BUt it would see tickets for sure!
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:14 am
by haulerch
My offseason would look like:
-S&T Monroe for Jrue Holiday.
-Trade Jennings if you can, if not bench player.
-Trade Bynum if possible.
-Sign Lance Stephenson 3/27
-Sign Anthony Morrow
-Sign Patty Mills
-Sign Josh Mcroberts
-Draft Joe Harris
Roster:
Holiday/Mills/Siva
KCP/Morrow/Harris
Stephenson/Singler
Smith/Mcroberts/Jerebko/Mitchell
Drummond/Jorts
Starting lineup would offer athleticism and defense. Second unit offers tons of three point shooting to mix around. If you can't trade Jennings, then don't sign Mills and use BJ as the backup guard. But it would be good to get rid of him
For this group.
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:35 am
by HotelVitale
haulerch wrote:-S&T Monroe for Jrue Holiday.
Zero chance that the Pelicans are interested in trading their young, all-star, two-way PG for the right to pay Monroe more money than they pay him. There's zero chance that would happen straight up...and you never get close to full value in sign and trades (since you've already acknowledged you're not going to pay the player what the other team will). This is just a pipedream homer trade.
haulerch wrote:-Sign Lance Stephenson 3/27
-Sign Anthony Morrow
-Sign Patty Mills
-Sign Josh Mcroberts
It's doubtful we could get Stephenson at that contract, but assuming we could, that's $9m for him, plus $5m for Mills and $4m for McRoberts and $3m for Morrow (those are all conservative estimates). If they have Holiday or Monroe at $11m (or just Monroe's cap hold), then we have about $10-13m in space. In others words, we can get a max of two of those guys. Not sure that adding Stephenson and McRoberts really moves the needle for us.
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:37 am
by DetroitSho
GSR121 wrote:ImHeisenberg wrote:GSR121 wrote:Trade number one.
Detroit out: Jonas Jerebko
NYN out: Raymond Felton, and Tim Hardaway Jr.
There's all of about zero probability of that happening.
If we did not get Hardaway Jr. it would not be a deal breaker. They would have to include some kind of compensation to take on Felton and his extra year. Maybe a protected first round pick, Shumpert or the like. If NYN loose Mello I feel they will want the draft picks more than Hardaway Jr. he seems to be a 3pt specialist and not too interested in anything else at this point. But others may disagree and see him as more, my interest is he fit a need (3pt shooting) and was a "local" product, not much else.
Why wouldn't it be a deal breaker? Isn't the whole point of that deal not to acquire Hardaway? Or do you actually like Felton/hate Jonas that much?
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Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:38 am
by haulerch
HotelVitale wrote:haulerch wrote:-S&T Monroe for Jrue Holiday.
Zero chance that the Pelicans are interested in trading their young, all-star, two-way PG for the right to pay Monroe more money than they pay him. There's zero chance that would happen straight up...and you never get close to full value in sign and trades (since you've already acknowledged you're not going to pay the player what the other team will). This is just a pipedream homer trade.
haulerch wrote:-Sign Lance Stephenson 3/27
-Sign Anthony Morrow
-Sign Patty Mills
-Sign Josh Mcroberts
It's doubtful we could get Stephenson at that contract, but assuming we could, that's $9m for him, plus $5m for Mills and $4m for McRoberts and $3m for Morrow (those are all conservative estimates). If they have Holiday or Monroe at $11m (or just Monroe's cap hold), then we have about $10-13m in space. In others words, we can get a max of two of those guys. Not sure that adding Stephenson and McRoberts really moves the needle for us.
In my own personal scenario, I'm also saying that we give Bynum and Jennings away, which would free up more cap.. It's not what I expect to actually happen, it would be my dream offseason.
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:55 am
by HotelVitale
GSR121 wrote: Offer Gordon Hayward a four year deal around 10-12 mil a year. Do this before resigning Monroe so we still have the cap room to do so.
This is the only move that would actually improve the team, so I'm not seeing how this really helps rebuild. Even if your other trades go through--I doubt they all would but they're at least plausible--we're not really shedding salary super quickly. We would be pretty bad next year and then have a bit more money to play around with year after--but we're going to have that anyway. We'd actually have a bit less after these deals than if we just sat tight this year and resigned Moose.
Basically I'm seeing gutting what we can and getting Hayward as the only significant moves. We'd have maybe $13m max in FA next year, which isn't enough to make a big splash either. I don't think it's a terrible plan or anything but it doesn't strike me as a plan worth getting excited about.
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:03 am
by haulerch
BTW, hotelvitale, I don't think a Holiday-Monroe trade is that far fetched. I've read a few different articles saying if something did come to fruitation between NOP and DET, we could be looking at Holiday/Anderson for Monroe/Jennings type of trade... Not saying its likely, but I really don't think it's a 'homer' far fetched trade.
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:17 am
by MotownMadness
haulerch wrote:BTW, hotelvitale, I don't think a Holiday-Monroe trade is that far fetched. I've read a few different articles saying if something did come to fruitation between NOP and DET, we could be looking at Holiday/Anderson for Monroe/Jennings type of trade... Not saying its likely, but I really don't think it's a 'homer' far fetched trade.
Hell I'll throw in a next year 1st rounder if we could get NOs to do Holiday/Anderson for Jennings/Monroe. We would be set up beautifully if we got both those guys while ditching Jennings as well.
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:41 am
by GSR121
DetroitSho wrote:GSR121 wrote:ImHeisenberg wrote:
There's all of about zero probability of that happening.
If we did not get Hardaway Jr. it would not be a deal breaker. They would have to include some kind of compensation to take on Felton and his extra year. Maybe a protected first round pick, Shumpert or the like. If NYN loose Mello I feel they will want the draft picks more than Hardaway Jr. he seems to be a 3pt specialist and not too interested in anything else at this point. But others may disagree and see him as more, my interest is he fit a need (3pt shooting) and was a "local" product, not much else.
Why wouldn't it be a deal breaker? Isn't the whole point of that deal not to acquire Hardaway? Or do you actually like Felton/hate Jonas that much?
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Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:57 am
by GSR121
@ DetroitSho, The goal is to acquire young assets, whether that be Hardaway Jr., A nother young player with an upside, or a first round pick. This trade would get us a young player or draft pick (otherwise we don't do it) and a temporary replacement a PG if my other trade happens. Felton is not a great PG but I would feel better with him at this point that either Bynum or Siva as the starter.
@ HotelVitale I really like Hayward, I think he is exactly the guy we need. Of all the free agents available he is number one on my list. At lest the ones we have ANY shot at. Removing Jennings and Smith off this team is addition by subtraction n my opinion. It would move us forward towards having a young team with a high BBIQ and that can grow together. I understand the "wait it out" method also but I honestly feel Hayward is the best player that we can attract here and would be worth all the rest of the moves to acquire.
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:07 am
by dVs33
i can't see us going into full rebuild mode with Gores and SVG in charge.
I would do the knicks trade but we aren't getting Hardaway.
Change it to Shumpert and add the 38th and we'd be closer on value.
what we need to do is add non expensive role players that fit the roster, try to shed some of our less appealing contracts and keep our good value young guys.
I'll give it a go...
Trade one (as mentioned above)
Jonas and 38th for Felton and Shumpert.
Trade 2
Smith and Bynum for J. Green, Bass and Bogans
Re-sign Monroe for $10-13 mil
Sign Meeks for $4 mil per approx
Run with...
Jennings / Felton / Siva
KCP / Shumpert / Meeks
Green / Singler / Bogans
Monroe / Bass / Mitchell
Drummond / Jorts
Fairly young squad with only Jennings as the only eye sore contract. With SVG on board, i am somewhat optimistic that jennings can improve. His age and shorter contract could make it easier to move him if not later on.
Green, a more mature KCP, Shumpert, Meeks and Singler are a big improvement on our wings from this season.
Bass can play with either Drummond or Monroe.
Obviously this was just a quick thing thrown together, but something along those lines would mean we're more competitive and should be eying a playoff spot and we'd still have room to improve.
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:34 am
by GSR121
Not bad, you might be correct on Jennings improving under SVG but I have my doubts. I don't think we have to take on both Bass and Bogans, I think one or the other would work, although Boston might disagree. As far as Meeks I am not oppose to him and he would probably be my second choice but I would try for Hayward first. I like your NY trade more than mine! LOL I do not see Hardaway Jr. as more than a 3pt specialist (a good one but...). Your trade nets us two assets, Nicely done!
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:56 am
by HotelVitale
haulerch wrote:BTW, hotelvitale, I don't think a Holiday-Monroe trade is that far fetched. I've read a few different articles saying if something did come to fruitation between NOP and DET, we could be looking at Holiday/Anderson for Monroe/Jennings type of trade... Not saying its likely, but I really don't think it's a 'homer' far fetched trade.
I won't pretend to know everything about trade value, but go and ask any Pelicans fan how they feel about it. I think you'll get a unanimous answer. Most of them would be very reluctant to do Monroe for Anderson straight up (they're homers too). Holiday is completely out of the question (and we're definitely not getting Anderson thrown in for dumping Jennings on them).
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:01 am
by coolness
I agree with all of those who say we are likely to try winning a maximum number of games for this coming season.
It might not be the smartest thing.
I would hope they look at how likely they are to win a Championship in 4 years.
Many ways to go about that. Many things to consider. Including the things we will never hear about.
Re: Rebuild slowly, or retool quickly? How would you do it?
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:09 am
by Redeemed
GSR121 wrote:@ Kilo, I don't see Mello as an option for us and I don't like Rondo. Rondo would be good on a veteran team but I don't see him as a leader, you need someone to reign him in. I think Rondo, Mello, and Smith on the same team would be a disaster! Each would be looking for his shot instead of working as a team. BUt it would see tickets for sure!
Melo wouldn't be a problem on the team. He has NEVER had the personality issues the other two have exhibited throughout their career. He has mainly been the guy with little around him other than when he's been in the Olympics or the All Star game.
He gets character assassinated as a selfish guy, even though he has accepted bench roles in the Olympics. He's been framed as a guy unwilling to sacrifice for his team even though he has played out of position at the four for the past several seasons. He has been presented as a guy who doesn't put it on the line for his team, eventhough he has played with back issues, a torn labrum, and a hyperextended knee while leading the league in scoring (last season) and being one of the leaders on his team in rebounds and assists.
If Joe would have picked Melo instead of Darko, we would have won several titles and been a perennial elite team even up to this point.
As for those guys looking for their own shot,
Rondo is a ball-dominant-pass-first-second-and third pg. The dude is a throwback. Smith and Melo really wouldn't handle the ball that much and they would get the ball in scoring position more often than not. Both players would be crazy efficient in what would likely be a potent offense.
We have no chance of getting Melo. His destinations seem to be Chicago, Houston, or New York. I don't want Rondo, I doubt he would respond well to SVG. I can't stand Smith and would like to see him off the team.