Are Drummond/Jordan really max players?

[313 Professor]

> Bogut benching... DNP w/success
Festus Ezeli was a formidable backup, but Bogut's rim protection and rebounding was sent to the bench DNP style in the most important games of the year because of his inability to contribute switching on smaller players on defense, and inability to make plays on offense. Drummond/Jordan have similar weaknesses at this point. Drummond is a freak athlete and I would say the switching is more of a problem with Jordan but you get the point.

> FT shooting... offensive value?
Both Drummond and Jordan aren't really playmakers at all on offense even though they still (especially Drummond) have potential to improve. Their 1-on-1 post game's aren't really efficient offense either. Offensive rebounds, lobs, and finishing at the rim after offensive space has been created are their only true values at this point. True offensive rebounding value is diminished as well because if you foul them they can't shoot free throws. We're talking career 40% FT shooting for both. What is their true value on offense? The Hack-A-Shaq strategy isn't going away anytime soon which is making poor FT shooters on the floor a true liability.

> Money per minute/4th quarter & playoff minutes?
Down the stretch in the 4th quarter of games and in the playoffs are usually the most important parts of a basketball game. They are the highest intensity and everything is exposed. Deandre Jordan averaged 4/11 per game on FT's in the playoffs (doubled from regular season 2/5.5) and missed a lot of important minutes and cost LAC a lot of important non-productive possessions. Certain players are 1st-3rd quarter stat padders and regular season stat guys who don't share the same success in the playoffs. Even LeBron as great as he is has a skillset that translates to significantly more dominance in the 1st-3rd/regular season phase than in the 4th quarter/playoff phase even though he's still very good in both. If Drummond/Jordan can't be productive on the floor in the most important minutes of the season are they worth the max? Yes, defensive stops are huge, but the FT shooting liability coupled with the fact that it's rare that you get clean lobs and putbacks in intense playoff minutes makes their value on the offensive side of the ball somewhat low. They aren't iso post players either even vs. smaller players in small-ball situations primarily because they'd struggle with creative help defense. Scoring on average 1 point if they're fouled and giving up 2's and possibly 3's on the other side adds up to a potentially negative net value in those minutes. Their rim protection and defense doesn't cover all means of scoring either (3's, iso's, mid-range pull ups, floaters, etc) so does the defense positive really outweigh the offensive negative?

> Efficient winning teams have playmakers on the frontline
Right now we have spacing with Tolliver and Illyasova which is good. But, guys like Aldridge, Duncan, Draymond Green, Blake Griffin, Gasol, KG, Shaq, Rasheed, LeBron, Webber, Noah, Iguodala, Boris Diaw, Dirk, etc are all very good at making the right basketball play when given space to operate. Obviously these are rare players, but these type players are consistently a part of winning teams. They won't always have high assist numbers, but if you watch the games you see a comfort from these bigs in space or when doubled making the right play that makes the offense work. Dwight Howard sticks out here. He is about as good as you can get with defense and rebounding, but he has those same weaknesses. He has a rather inefficient 1-on-1 game when D is tight, he isn't much of a playmaker from the post and is quite turnover prone, he can't shoot with range, and he can't shoot FT's (even though he's improved a bit). He has had very good teams around him I think in Orlando and now Houston, and I would argue that his true value being overrated is why those teams haven't gotten over the hump.

> Conclusion
Drummond is one of my favorite Pistons but I'm just talking about pure value here. Drummond, Jordan, and Dwight type players have holes in their game that will take more resources to cover up and put the right pieces around them and have enough to win. The only limit to Hack-A-Shaq strategy is moral conscious. I don't know if I want to give the max to a player that can have all that value stripped away just because a coach decided to do whatever it took to win and put Drummond on the line constantly, not caring about the flow of the game for the fans.

Monta Ellis is another example of a player with great talents with notable weaknesses that cost him money. With the ball he can score in all 3 phases from anywhere on the court off the dribble. Not many players can do that. Monta is a special talent. But, his average to below average 3pt shooting, lack of defense, star player ego, and reputation as a chucker & volume shooter has cost him money throughout his career. I would argue that Monta is one of the top 10 iso scorers in the NBA, and the value of that skill and his scoring ability in the 4th quarter/playoffs makes him worth more than what he gets paid. Why would a guy like Drummond be considered a max guy with his share of weaknesses? If I was Monta I'd be mad and have a little ego too. Just because bigs don't have the ball in their hands to determine their worth people act like their weaknesses aren't there and overrate their positive impact? Kendrick Perkins... the terrible player that he is, made more than Monta this year based off that flawed logic and the big man's impact being overrated and overvalued. If I was Monta I would carry myself like a star too knowing that I am a Top 10 iso scorer in this league, and at the end of the day scoring points wins games and real ballers know what I do. I might make a Monta Ellis come to DET thread after this lol... Thoughttts?

[tmorgan]

Yes -- because the ability to dominate the boards and patrol the paint with one player allows for better perimeter defense. 3's and drives rule the league, and Dre and Deandre help contain both.

[Liqourish]

Yes -- because the ability to dominate the boards and patrol the paint with one player allows for better perimeter defense. 3's and drives rule the league, and Dre and Deandre help contain both.

So true.

[bstein14]

For us, yes... partly because our lack of being able to bring in an all-star level talent. If we were Miami, New York, or LA I wouldn't pay Dre the max because we'd be a place where FA's have a desire to play and could likely get a little bit better value on some guys.

I don't think Dre will ever be a top 10 NBA player(don't see the drive for greatness), but if he can get us 16 and 14 with solid defense I think he can be an perennial all-star (which makes him top 16-24 on a yearly basis for several years) which is good enough to be a max player in this league.... especially on a team that's been mediocre for almost a decade now.

[tmorgan]

Apparently I'm still making sense. This needs to be rectified with more booze.

[DBC10]

Apparently I'm still making sense. This needs to be rectified with more booze.

Drink away friend, drink the night away. If you remember who we drafted tomorrow, you ain't doing your duty tonight.

But on topic: Yes, because we literally can't afford not to. We are devoid of talent as a team. But you're right they do have holes in their game. Offensively, Dre, DeAndre, and Dwight are all terrible and should never ISO, like at all. And I've grown sour on post play as a whole recently unless you're Shaq/Yao with sheer power or Hakeem with mix of both power and skill. Nobody embodies those two in the current league, so I'm not keen on centers all that much, especially when defense is pretty skeptical at times too with Dre and DeAndre both.

There was a good post about DeAndre and how he should never have sniffed DPOY because he doesn't impact team defense all that much and is overrated for example.
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/who-is-nba-defensive-player-of-the-year-its-not-deandre-jordan/
http://www.clipsnation.com/2015/3/4/8136117/deandre-jordan-is-good-but-not-dpoy-good

[ComboGuardCity]

Apparently I'm still making sense. This needs to be rectified with more booze.

Hopefully Phil Jackson is doing the same


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[princeofpalace]

No, the max should be reserved for superstar players

[zeebneeb]

Drummond absolutely is a max player, and anyone who says otherwise is a meanie. My opinion, trumps all others, to infinity.

[detroitKG]

Drummond absolutely is a max player, and anyone who says otherwise is a meanie. My opinion, trumps all others, to infinity.

I agree and support this public statement!!!! LOL

In all seriousness though...He's already an Elite rebounder with potential to also be an Elite defender as well...sprinkle in his offense and yes in this day and age he's a max player...HATERS be damned!

[313 Professor]

For us, yes... partly because our lack of being able to bring in an all-star level talent. If we were Miami, New York, or LA I wouldn't pay Dre the max because we'd be a place where FA's have a desire to play and could likely get a little bit better value on some guys.

I don't think Dre will ever be a top 10 NBA player(don't see the drive for greatness), but if he can get us 16 and 14 with solid defense I think he can be an perennial all-star (which makes him top 16-24 on a yearly basis for several years) which is good enough to be a max player in this league.... especially on a team that's been mediocre for almost a decade now.

I agree... We're definitely going to end up paying the max just to keep him. I think it's a little unfortunate though because of your 2 points about us as a FA draw, and because of Dre's ultimate non top 10 impact. The precedent has been set by many examples of overpaying for bigs.... unfortunately

[Hotmayo]

yes. drummond will average probably 18-14 next year or maybe more

[MrBigShot]

In a vacuum a guy that averages around 13/13 but can't shoot free throws, score outside of the paint and isn't a great defensive anchor isn't worth a 25% of the cap 5 year max contract extension that could get.

Realistically, Drummond is extremely unlikely -not- to make any improvements. Even if he doesn't reach his ceiling he should at least become a guy that gives you 18ppg, 14-15rpg and a few blocks with better defense the more experience he gets. Add that to fact that he's our most valuable asset, and giving him the max is a no brainer.

[Finn McCool]

I don't like Drummond... can't wait 'til he's gone.

[Scout Taron]

Drummond isn't worth it right now, but we just have to hope he reaches that level. We have no other choice.

[MotownMadness]

I don't like Drummond... can't wait 'til he's gone.

Might want to grab a Coke and a smile because you might be waiting a while.

[Finn McCool]

I don't like Drummond... can't wait 'til he's gone.

Might want to grab a Coke and a smile because you might be waiting a while.

Motown, I said some unkind things toward you.... and I am sorry... genuinely. I got aggravated one night.

I fully understand Andre will stick around.

I have never been a bandwagon fan in the almost 40 years I have followed the Pistons... but I can't stand the kid. Dude gives me visions of Andrew Bynum and Larry Sanders. I would not re-sign him if I was Tom Gores... and I would make sure SVG traded his a** by the 2016 trde deadline

[MotownMadness]

I don't like Drummond... can't wait 'til he's gone.

Might want to grab a Coke and a smile because you might be waiting a while.

Motown, I said some unkind things toward you.... and I am sorry... genuinely. I got aggravated one night.

I fully understand Andre will stick around.

I have never been a bandwagon fan in the almost 40 years I have followed the Pistons... but I can't stand the kid. Dude gives me visions of Andrew Bynum and Larry Sanders. I would not re-sign him if I was Tom Gores... and I would make sure SVG traded his a** by the 2016 trde deadline

Are you meaning in a sense that they don't care about basketball or something?

[ComboGuardCity]

I don't like Drummond... can't wait 'til he's gone.

Might want to grab a Coke and a smile because you might be waiting a while.

Motown, I said some unkind things toward you.... and I am sorry... genuinely. I got aggravated one night.

I fully understand Andre will stick around.

I have never been a bandwagon fan in the almost 40 years I have followed the Pistons... but I can't stand the kid. Dude gives me visions of Andrew Bynum and Larry Sanders. I would not re-sign him if I was Tom Gores... and I would make sure SVG traded his a** by the 2016 trde deadline

There has to be a story here. Did he do something off the court?


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[313 Professor]

I don't like Drummond... can't wait 'til he's gone.

Might want to grab a Coke and a smile because you might be waiting a while.

Motown, I said some unkind things toward you.... and I am sorry... genuinely. I got aggravated one night.

I fully understand Andre will stick around.

I have never been a bandwagon fan in the almost 40 years I have followed the Pistons... but I can't stand the kid. Dude gives me visions of Andrew Bynum and Larry Sanders. I would not re-sign him if I was Tom Gores... and I would make sure SVG traded his a** by the 2016 trde deadline

I don't see those comparisons. He can come off as a little bit lazy and streaky with his energy but playing for these Pistons would do that to anybody.

I never thought about a trade though that is an interesting point. I wonder what we would be able to get for Drummond in a trade? He might honestly get us back a high quality piece or two that is more conducive to winning. His value right about now might be as high as it'll ever be.