Game 20- Milwaukee Bucks (7-12) @ Detroit Pistons (10-9) 7:30 PM EST

[Liqourish]

Remember when people said the Bucks were a better team than us?

[El Chivo]

I remember the putrid basketball we played in Milwaukee few days ago, so I want revenge.

[Spider156]

I can't tell you how much I hate the Bucks right now. Probably more than the Pacers. Overrated!! After the last game I hope Drummond comes out with an urgency to manhandle the WEAK Greg Monroe. Ilyasova needs to step up against his former team that traded him. Remember people! Jennings was injured during the Bucks game and they won then because of Knight. Now that Knight is taken care of this season (2-0), I'd like to see a 3-1 this season against Monroe's Bucks. I'm sure the team will come out with energy as they're emotional and not professional. I'm sure they'll want to make a statement in this one. I really want the Bucks to keep losing this season. I don't want Monroe to reach the Playoffs before us. No way!

[Spider156]

Remember when people said the Bucks were a better team than us?

I remember saying they're overrated. I remember saying they can't and won't shoot the basketball. I remember Monroe not making the Playoffs the second he set his foot inside Milwaukee.

I'm so happy that our team beat on the Bucks so much in the Playoffs a decade ago. I always thought the Bucks were a joke ever since Michael Redd kept getting injured.

[Shady_]

Previously on the Real GM Detroit Pistons Game Thread...

I just can't believe that people are trying to argue that being a poor FT shooter doesn't have a negative impact on the game... that it doesn't lose you games... Some games got to OT... Some games are won or lost by one or two points... if your team is a poor FT shooting team, you're going to lose games sometimes to teams that are good FT shooting teams.... Obviously there are tons of other factors as well but its a key part of the game. Just like being a poor shooting team, or a poor rebounding team, or a poor defensive team... All of those things are going to have a negative impact on your chances of winning games. That's just common sense man.

Dude, the discussion that you entered was referring to FT shooting SOLEY as the reason for winning and losing games. That's literally never happened ever in any nba game ever . They may have missed a FT to win or tie the game. But the result of that FT attempt isn't the SOLE REASON for losing/winning the game. As you stated "tons of factors".

If we played a game absolutely perfect and Dre's FT's were below average and everyone else hit there FT average. I'd be more inclined to agree. IF WE PLAYED THE PERFECT GAME and that happened. Don't think we will ever play the perfect game.

If Andre was an average FT shooter for a center (65% ish) we'd probably have at least two more wins this season (against the Clippers and against the Nets)... You can go back and look at those games and see how costly those misses were...

If KCP hits his average 3's in other losses, we win those games. If RJ doesn't have as many TO's, we don't lose, Why is Andre's FT's singled out? i go back and watch all 48 minutes since a game isn't 2 ft's long and i can see many things being costly.

obviously there were a bunch of other things we could have done as a team as well, but those misses, and Andre getting pulled from the game was pretty huge. At the same time, if Andre was an average rebounder for a center (maybe 8 RPG) instead of the best in the NBA, we would have lost several more games this year as well. His rebounding isn't the only reason we win just like his FT shooting isn't the only reason we've lost, but both of those have played big rolls in a few of our wins and a few of our losses... That's the honest truth.

at this point your contradicting yourself

you can't say i know "tons of factors" impact a game, and then single "one factor" as the reason for losing the game.


Furthermore there is currently a correlation between us out-rebounding opponents and wins. I believe we are undefeated when we out-rebound opponents. Right there is a direct correlation between winning and losing based on a specific stat over the course of our season. Even if we lose one game and outrebound opponents. Theres still enough substance to come to a reasonable conclusion of the impact of rebounding.

Nor you or Arps(who i am beginning to think is your other account name) has brought anything of validity to this argument like that. Other than a 2 game sample in which we loss, which would mean more if we didn't just win 2 games with the team employing the same sort of tactics.

Every game, there is going to be several factors that lead to losing and or winning... its never just a single factor but at the same time, some games are so close that if you could change just one factor it would have made the difference in winning or losing. That's a fairly reasonable statement I think. Some games are so close, that if you would have shot better from the line you would have won instead of lost. Some games are so close that if you would have had 14 TOs instead of 18 TOs you would have won. Some games are so close that if you would have hit 35% of your threes instead of 28% you would have won. Its pretty obvious that for some games, if Andre was a better FT shooter we would have won..... Over the course of 82 games, if we continue to be the worst FT shooting team in the NBA its going to cost us some games compared to if we were an average FT shooting team. I don't see how anyone could deny that one thing (Free Throw Shooting) has an impact on winning or losing at least a few of 82 games... every coach in the NBA would agree with that.

at this point your contradicting yourself

you can't say i know "tons of factors" impact a game, and then single "one factor" as the reason for losing the game.

Nor you or Arps(who i am beginning to think is your other account name) has brought anything of validity to this argument like that. Other than a 2 game sample in which we loss, which would mean more if we didn't just win 2 games with the team employing the same sort of tactics.

At no point did anyone say that FT shooting was the SOLE factor that we lost a game, LETS GET THAT STRAIGHT. You and Liquorish are clearly backpedaling and changing the argument constantly. No one said it was the sole factor.

Second, because someone else believes that FTs have an impact on a basketball game they must be my alternate ID? BStein has been here since 2001.

Let's look at it like this:

-FTs DIRECTLY affect the final score of the game, which is what matters right...? If we go 15-20 on free throws instead of 10-20 free throws, we are going to have 5 more points, it's as simple as that.

Versus

-Rebounds, Turnovers which are obviously very important to winning a game but they INDIRECTLY affect the final score. We could be turning the ball over 20 times but if the other team doesn't score off those turnovers.. then nothing happens to the final score.

There are many important factors to a basketball game obviously.. but we are talking about FREE throws, please do not diminish the importance. Missing 2 free throws = a wasted possession and is pretty much a turnover.
Making shots is the most important factor in a game, whether it be layups or free throws.


Again I can't stress this enough, at no point did anyone say free throws were the SOLE factor we've lost games.
Stop using my name in reference to this statement because you have failed to provide any evidence of anyone saying this.


Also, since you feel the need to make rebounding stat correlations, lets take a look at this:
-Last year we were the 4th best Rebounding team in the league at 44.9
-The year before we were the 3rd best at 45.4
How did that work out for us? Oh right a lottery pick.

-This year we are 3rd in rebounding, but we also have the 28th lowest Field Goal Percentage, we are 1st in Offensive Rebounds at 14.2 per game do you see the correlation? We miss a lot of shots, therefore there are a lot of extra rebounds to grab.

Yes we are what 8-2 in games where Andre shoots 6 or more free throws? You also have to consider that Andre is more active/aggressive in those games, as a result we play better.. but being more active/aggressive also results in more FT attempts, so you can't really use that stat alone to make an assumption that it doesn't matter how many FT's Andre misses.

If we are not counting the last 2 games since clearly hack-a-dre affected the FT attempts, in games where Andre shoots 6 or more free throws he also averages more rebounds(Hence him being more active/aggressive resulting in more FT's)
-In those 8 games where Andre shoots 6 or more free throws he is averaging 18.5 Rebounds per game.
-In all other games he is averaging 16.45 Rebounds per game.
So it's clear he is playing with more effort in those games and making a greater impact.


Let's review: Obviously there are many important factors to winning a basketball game, I don't know why it's necessary to even say that, but making shots(Including FT's) i'd have to argue is the most important.
The team that makes more shots(Including FT's) wins the game.
To repeat for the 20th time, No one at any point said FT's were the SOLE reason we lost games.. but in 2 games as someone else mentioned, they definitely were a very large factor.

Please do not continue to ignore the points that I have made in this post, and pretending as if I am arguing with you about FT's being the sole reason we've lost games.
Edit: I noticed you replied to this thread less than a minute after I posted this, clearly showing that you didn't read my post and ignored every point I made. Way to ask for "validity in this argument" but ignore facts when they are presented.

/Thread

Not only do opposing coaches think Dre's FT shooting affects winning/losing (by intentionally fouling him), but our own coach does as well because he is the one that is taking him out of the game during important moments of the second half. Do you think Stan takes Dre out of the game during important 2nd half moments of the game like that if he doesn't think Dre's FT shooting has an impact on us losing the game. Even Dre would be the first to admit that him missing so many FTs hurts the team and he needs to work on it and get better. I would think everyone would agree its obviously not the SOLE reason we would lose a game, but there are certain games that are close enough that if he shoots 7/11 from (close to league average for a center) instead of 2/11 from the line we win the game (the Brooklyn game).... Not saying that other things couldn't have changed the outcome also, because of course they could have, but in that game and the Clippers game in particular if Dre wasn't a poor FT shooter but an average one we likely would have won both those games. There are going to be at least a few games over the course of an 82 game season where having a the worst shooting FT shooter in the league playing 35 minutes a night and getting intentionally fouled is going to cost you a W or two.

SVG had to take Dwight out in the last minutes of Games in Orlando while Dwight was fouled a great deal more often than Drummond. Heck, Shaq was taken out of the end of games and he was the Best Center I ever witnessed in the NBA. Games are truly like a chess match.

Now to be continued...

[Shady_]

Remember when people said the Bucks were a better team than us?

but but its preseason..

but yeah I remember some of our posters were telling them that there team are a bad fit together and were telling them Brandon Knight was a better fit for them over MCW but they wouldn't even listen.

Still to this day, they still defend the Knight and MCW trade.

I lurk on there forum sometimes to see what they think of Monroe and it's hilarious.

They beat us last time which they shouldn't have, so i expect some payback.

[Arp590]

Previously on the Real GM Detroit Pistons Game Thread...
Now to be continued...

Hopefully that sums it all up lol. Maybe just paste that entire block of quotes at the end of the game thread so people can just re-read it so we can avoid this discussion lol.

In regards to the Bucks.. I don't know how anyone could have thought the Bucks would be better than us before the season.
Who is their rim protector? Greg Monroe is not that guy, he needs someone next to him to cover up his weaknesses defensively.

[DetroitSho]

I can't tell you how much I hate the Bucks right now. Probably more than the Pacers. Overrated!! After the last game I hope Drummond comes out with an urgency to manhandle the WEAK Greg Monroe. Ilyasova needs to step up against his former team that traded him. Remember people! Jennings was injured during the Bucks game and they won then because of Knight. Now that Knight is taken care of this season (2-0), I'd like to see a 3-1 this season against Monroe's Bucks. I'm sure the team will come out with energy as they're emotional and not professional. I'm sure they'll want to make a statement in this one. I really want the Bucks to keep losing this season. I don't want Monroe to reach the Playoffs before us. No way!

You hate the Bucks because of Monroe? I don't understand why people love Knight but hate Monroe.

[Todd3]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=istJXUJJP0g[/youtube]

[DBC10]

I love all former rookie Pistons except maybe Austin Daye of recent past. BK especially since he's a turning into a great guard.

Monroe will get his and hopefully Dre is properly prepared this time. Time for student to beat the sensei sort of way.

[sfballa13]

I love all former rookie Pistons except maybe Austin Daye of recent past. BK especially since he's a turning into a great guard.

Monroe will get his and hopefully Dre is properly prepared this time. Time for student to beat the sensei sort of way.

Screw Brandon Knight he had all the opportunities to do great things in Detroit but played like utter trash

Come to think of it he still is playing like trash but is getting extremely overrated, he is putting up nearly identical stats as his time with us

Yes he is scoring 8 more pts a game but he is taking 8 more shots to do that

He still is the same overrated garbage he was while on the Pistons good riddance

[DetroitSho]

I love all former rookie Pistons except maybe Austin Daye of recent past. BK especially since he's a turning into a great guard.

Monroe will get his and hopefully Dre is properly prepared this time. Time for student to beat the sensei sort of way.

Screw Brandon Knight he had all the opportunities to do great things in Detroit but played like utter trash

Come to think of it he still is playing like trash but is getting extremely overrated, he is putting up nearly identical stats as his time with us

Yes he is scoring 8 more pts a game but he is taking 8 more shots to do that

He still is the same overrated garbage he was while on the Pistons good riddance

While I wouldn't call him trash, because he's a good player, I agree with you on Knight. He plays in a high paced system with the green light to just hoist. He was always a good shooter, so give him more shots and he'll score more points. He still doesn't know pace and how to properly come off a screen at the right angle consistently. So yes he's the same player, just more jacked which always helps with the "he's such a hard/tireless worker" mantra.

I think this fan base gets caught up in the "you can't quit, because you're FIRED" line of thinking. Knight was traded and left not by choice. So it's "poor Brandon" even though we received a better PG in return. Monroe left on his own when it was clear he had no place here, and its "let's beat that loser". I bet if Monroe signed an extension here last year and we traded him to the Bucks this past offseason, it would be "he was always a good guy, I feel bad he's stuck over in Milwaukee".

[hoophabit]

The Pistons should be motivated for this one, AD in particular.

Monroe was too good to be our backup center, and couldn't be our PF. Best thing for all concerned.

Thanks Shady (ESAD).

[Blkbrd671]

Remember when people said the Bucks were a better team than us?

Milwakee's greatest mistake was trading Brandon Knight. He's exactly what they are missing from their PG position. Also Bucks may not be better than us, but we struggle against length, and they have oodles and oodles of it.

[Blkbrd671]

I can't tell you how much I hate the Bucks right now. Probably more than the Pacers. Overrated!! After the last game I hope Drummond comes out with an urgency to manhandle the WEAK Greg Monroe. Ilyasova needs to step up against his former team that traded him. Remember people! Jennings was injured during the Bucks game and they won then because of Knight. Now that Knight is taken care of this season (2-0), I'd like to see a 3-1 this season against Monroe's Bucks. I'm sure the team will come out with energy as they're emotional and not professional. I'm sure they'll want to make a statement in this one. I really want the Bucks to keep losing this season. I don't want Monroe to reach the Playoffs before us. No way!

You hate the Bucks because of Monroe? I don't understand why people love Knight but hate Monroe.

BK worked his butt off, even when things were sh*. Monroe has never been seen as a player that gives 100% effort. He handled his situation the best he could, but there's still a sort of resentment to him because he never quite developed as a player and its from lack of effort. The guy still doesn't have a jump shot, if that tells you anything.

[engelbert321]

I love all former rookie Pistons except maybe Austin Daye of recent past. BK especially since he's a turning into a great guard.

Monroe will get his and hopefully Dre is properly prepared this time. Time for student to beat the sensei sort of way.

Screw Brandon Knight he had all the opportunities to do great things in Detroit but played like utter trash

Come to think of it he still is playing like trash but is getting extremely overrated, he is putting up nearly identical stats as his time with us

Yes he is scoring 8 more pts a game but he is taking 8 more shots to do that

He still is the same overrated garbage he was while on the Pistons good riddance

While I wouldn't call him trash, because he's a good player, I agree with you on Knight. He plays in a high paced system with the green light to just hoist. He was always a good shooter, so give him more shots and he'll score more points. He still doesn't know pace and how to properly come off a screen at the right angle consistently. So yes he's the same player, just more jacked which always helps with the "he's such a hard/tireless worker" mantra.

I think this fan base gets caught up in the "you can't quit, because you're FIRED" line of thinking. Knight was traded and left not by choice. So it's "poor Brandon" even though we received a better PG in return. Monroe left on his own when it was clear he had no place here, and its "let's beat that loser". I bet if Monroe signed an extension here last year and we traded him to the Bucks this past offseason, it would be "he was always a good guy, I feel bad he's stuck over in Milwaukee".

Uhhh not all of us here even wanted Monroe back unlike you and Clarity.

[Liqourish]

I can't tell you how much I hate the Bucks right now. Probably more than the Pacers. Overrated!! After the last game I hope Drummond comes out with an urgency to manhandle the WEAK Greg Monroe. Ilyasova needs to step up against his former team that traded him. Remember people! Jennings was injured during the Bucks game and they won then because of Knight. Now that Knight is taken care of this season (2-0), I'd like to see a 3-1 this season against Monroe's Bucks. I'm sure the team will come out with energy as they're emotional and not professional. I'm sure they'll want to make a statement in this one. I really want the Bucks to keep losing this season. I don't want Monroe to reach the Playoffs before us. No way!

You hate the Bucks because of Monroe? I don't understand why people love Knight but hate Monroe.

I don't hate Monroe. I just don't think he's a big loss and hate when people try to make him better than he is. He's a decent scoring center. His defense is awful. But he's not a bad guy. He's also not a guy you win with. He has this type of game where he fills a stat sheet but has very little impact on the game. Yet, because he filled the stat sheet, people never want to blame him for losses. We saw it here and now you're seeing it in Milwaukee. He's a good player, but not a key piece or one to be dependent upon. I wish him well in his career.

[DetroitSho]

I can't tell you how much I hate the Bucks right now. Probably more than the Pacers. Overrated!! After the last game I hope Drummond comes out with an urgency to manhandle the WEAK Greg Monroe. Ilyasova needs to step up against his former team that traded him. Remember people! Jennings was injured during the Bucks game and they won then because of Knight. Now that Knight is taken care of this season (2-0), I'd like to see a 3-1 this season against Monroe's Bucks. I'm sure the team will come out with energy as they're emotional and not professional. I'm sure they'll want to make a statement in this one. I really want the Bucks to keep losing this season. I don't want Monroe to reach the Playoffs before us. No way!

You hate the Bucks because of Monroe? I don't understand why people love Knight but hate Monroe.

BK worked his butt off, even when things were sh*. Monroe has never been seen as a player that gives 100% effort. He handled his situation the best he could, but there's still a sort of resentment to him because he never quite developed as a player and its from lack of effort. The guy still doesn't have a jump shot, if that tells you anything.

Other than being noticeably bigger and stronger, what are these big improvements that he's "worked his butt off" to accomplish? He's still not the best decision maker. He's terrible with playing with pace. Still average at best with using picks to get the best advantage of his man. I can't really speak on his finishing ability and if that's improved (although I did see him blow a wide open breakaway game winning layup just last year). He came in with the ability to shoot, pretty good ballhandler, and defend his position. All those are better. But he improved on strengths he already had. It's easy to look at Monroe and say he never developed a jumpshot so that means he didn't put effort in. Brandon Knight still can't effectively run a team. Am I supposed to gloss over that because he has muscles now?

[DetroitSho]

Screw Brandon Knight he had all the opportunities to do great things in Detroit but played like utter trash

Come to think of it he still is playing like trash but is getting extremely overrated, he is putting up nearly identical stats as his time with us

Yes he is scoring 8 more pts a game but he is taking 8 more shots to do that

He still is the same overrated garbage he was while on the Pistons good riddance

While I wouldn't call him trash, because he's a good player, I agree with you on Knight. He plays in a high paced system with the green light to just hoist. He was always a good shooter, so give him more shots and he'll score more points. He still doesn't know pace and how to properly come off a screen at the right angle consistently. So yes he's the same player, just more jacked which always helps with the "he's such a hard/tireless worker" mantra.

I think this fan base gets caught up in the "you can't quit, because you're FIRED" line of thinking. Knight was traded and left not by choice. So it's "poor Brandon" even though we received a better PG in return. Monroe left on his own when it was clear he had no place here, and its "let's beat that loser". I bet if Monroe signed an extension here last year and we traded him to the Bucks this past offseason, it would be "he was always a good guy, I feel bad he's stuck over in Milwaukee".

Uhhh not all of us here even wanted Monroe back unlike you and Clarity.

Not wanting to lose an asset for nothing =/= wanting him back. And if people didn't want him back that's what makes it so strange to be so outraged he took the QO when that was the first step to him being gone, which is what people wanted.

[Liqourish]

While I wouldn't call him trash, because he's a good player, I agree with you on Knight. He plays in a high paced system with the green light to just hoist. He was always a good shooter, so give him more shots and he'll score more points. He still doesn't know pace and how to properly come off a screen at the right angle consistently. So yes he's the same player, just more jacked which always helps with the "he's such a hard/tireless worker" mantra.

I think this fan base gets caught up in the "you can't quit, because you're FIRED" line of thinking. Knight was traded and left not by choice. So it's "poor Brandon" even though we received a better PG in return. Monroe left on his own when it was clear he had no place here, and its "let's beat that loser". I bet if Monroe signed an extension here last year and we traded him to the Bucks this past offseason, it would be "he was always a good guy, I feel bad he's stuck over in Milwaukee".

Uhhh not all of us here even wanted Monroe back unlike you and Clarity.

Not wanting to lose an asset for nothing =/= wanting him back. And if people didn't want him back that's what makes it so strange to be so outraged he took the QO when that was the first step to him being gone, which is what people wanted.

People aren't outraged, they just don't care for him.