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So Stan went out and added two new pieces in Free agency, in Jon Leuer, and Ish Smith. He also added two players from the draft who will also help with our bench but I wont be including them into this.

There seems to be a disconnect here on the board with people understanding just how good our starters where when Tobias Harris was added into the Starting lineup, and what this team actually needed. So quickly;

Pistons Starting unit from Feb 22nd until April 12th(Tobias in starting lineup)

PPG #3-78.6

+/- #T10th-+2.5

APG #17-14.6

RPG #3-32.3

3P% #15 36.5

FG% #16 46.2

W% #8 64% (16-9)

Now lets get down to brass tack here. First im going to post all the exact same stats for the Pistons bench from the same time period last year(even though early in the season it was so bad it was unreal)so everyone can see what was dragging this entire team down in an easy to see, and understand way and just how important the new pieces should be.

Pistons bench from Feb 22nd until April 12th(Tobias in the starting Unit)

PPG #30-23.8(DEADLAST

+/- #25--1.6

APG #19-6.6

RPG #28 13.5

3P% #20 33.2

FG% #28 41.2

Now in those games they went 16/9 and in wins the bench scored 26.6PPG, and in losses the bench scored 19.7PPG.

Now mind you this is with Tobias Harris just plopped into the starting lineup in the middle of a team trying to make a run into the playoffs with only 27 games to go. So very little time to get accustomed to his new teammates or Stans system. This is where having a bench not be just horrendous would have been a boon to the team.

Lets start with Ish Smith. Lots of people where either "Who?" Or "Why?" Lets break it down.

As everyone who watched the horror show when Steven Blake, or Dinwiddie was trotted out to run the second unit can attest to, it lacked ball movement and any kind of real leadership. Things just happened or they didnt. There was no floor general.

So I am taking the game when Ish smith was sent to Philly which happened on Dec 26th 2015 and up until april 13th the last day of Phillys season, a massive 50 game sample.

In those 50 games Ish averaged 7 APG Good for 8th in the league for assists What did the bench need? A floor general, someone who could get the players the ball in a place to succeed. He also had a 2.68 AST/TO ratio in that time.


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT8ekRak9ds][/youtube]


Jon Leuer is another interesting piece, one I am particularly high on. His shooting, coupled with his ability to put the ball on the floor is going to go a long way in transforming the bench, and its scoring. Leuer is also an excellent rebounder, while Tolliver was below average. The Pistons had no equivalent last year. Here is a perfect clip to show everything he is, that Tolliver WAS NOT;


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3BTW7mNEkA[/youtube]

Last season Leuer (with a filter of more than 40 games played, so at least half a season) was 12th in the league in FG% among All Forwards in the league at 48.1% and 32nd among all Forwards in 3P% at 38.2%(with the custom filter of at least 1 3P attempt per game) at 67 games played and 1.6 attempts per game.

That already makes Leuer the 2nd best 3 point shooter on the team just behind Reggie Bullock (41.5% 37 games played 1.4 Attempts per game) and just ahead of Hilliard (38.0% 38 games played 1.3 Attempts per game)

Unlike Tolliver, Leuer has the ability to either stand on the perimeter like Tolliver, but also the ability to put the ball on the floor. This is a huge dynamic that the bench just didnt have last year, and it would kill our offense as teams knew that Tolliver was doing nothing but either shoot, or pass when he received the ball making him, and the rest of the benchs offense predictable, and easy to guard. Leuer also has the ability to post up,



[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqkRUhgjefY[/youtube]




as seen in this clip(first shot) and while not refined, it is an ability that both Tolliver, and Baynes lacked so offensive sets were extremely limited for the bench, once again making them predictable, and easy to guard. Leuer also has the ability to run the floor not only for a catch and shoot three but to do this;


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_8GH8g39mw[/youtube]

Which the Pistons bench didnt have last year.

Ish Smith, unlike Blake can turn the corner and get into the lane either to score, or dish it out.


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzGsEUMgYtg[/youtube]


Blake just didnt have the foot speed to do that so when he became trapped above the 3 point line, and made an emergency pass to Tolliver it would turn into a disaster, forcing Tolliver into a crap shot, or a crap pass, as he could do nothing else with the ball. Another thing that made our bench a horror show was often just throwing the ball down into Baynes in the post where his options became nightmarish at best. Baynes doesnt have the moves, or the foot speed to truly post players up, and his options for passing out to where Tolliver who teams just stood near so he wouldnt shoot the ball, forcing a crap pass, Johnson a rookie who had problems shooting from the outside and wildly inconsistent as a rookie, Bullock early on who couldnt hit the broad side of a barn, or once again, and aging Steve Blake with no ability to get into the lane and finish, or create space for a shot.

The additions of both Smith and Leuer bring in not just shooting, and penetration, but brand new offensive sets that just could not happen with our old bench. The offense would stagnate to the point where Stan would bring in Morris and have him play with the bench, as he can create his own shot but that would lead to him always receiving the ball with 6-8 seconds on the shot clock for a backdown jumper, or when teams did double him(which was often as he was the only viable threat in that unti when brought in)he would be forced into a pass to players who had no ability to create their own shot.


To sum it up, the Pistons, with Tobias Harris in the starting lineup for 25 games and no training camp, where a 64% win percentage team,(around 52-54 wins) while also having the worst bench in the league.

The two new players add everything the old bench lacked. Passing, penetration, shooting, driving, running the floor, rebounding, and floor leadership.

Great post, zeebneeb. Thanks. Main addition we still need imo is another PG.

Outstanding post

Had to give the and 1 for this post, Zeeb. Great work, great arguments.

Great Job Zeeb, I spent last night watching a lot of vids on our two new bench guys and they are extremely underrated. Ish Smith is especially underrated and will be a huge addition. This kid has big time skills as a PG and his speed is ridiculous.

Can't just go by scoring though. They were 3rd in scoring because they were 2nd in minutes.

If you go by efficiency:

14th in ORTG
16th in FG%
15th in 3FG%
18th in eFG%
18th in TS%
26th in AST%

12th in DRTG

In other words this starting 5 was average on both sides. We all agree the bench needed upgrades too, but you can't just compare the stats straight up to determine which needed upgrades more, because one unit is playing 33 mpg and the other only 15. So even though the bench was worse, the starting lineup is always more important if there's issues that need to be addressed there too. And when you're average in every category, you can't proceed as if the starting 5 is set and just need to upgrade the bench, because mediocrity isn't the goal.

This 5 is going to need to become elite on at least one side of the ball to win a championship.

Do you think they're capable of that, and on which side?

Lacking shooters and/or a star scorer, I think it's impossible for this current 5 to become an elite offense. And likewise on defense with Reggie and Harris.

So while it's good they went 16-9 and made the playoffs, a starting lineup that's only average on both sides isn't going to get it done long-term.

Isn't it possible that our starters stats were helped by having such a poor bench. The idea that you can just take what the starters stats to end the season were, and then just add the 2 new bench pieces on top doesn't really work.

A better bench will take away both minutes and stats from the starters. My guess is every team with a "bad bench" (based solely on stats), has a correlation with the "best" starting fives. It's almost impossible to have both at the same time.

Now obviously, our bench has undeniably gotten better than it was last season, but personally I don't think it will make as big a difference as a lot of people here think. We had a horrible bench last season and now I think we have an average NBA bench, but we dont have players on our bench who would be starters on any other team.

I think there is validity to both zeeb and Todd's posts... but honestly, I'm kinda taking the official stats out of the equation. What I observed was that virtually every time we had a lead and then went to our bench... that lead went away. I observed that when we went to our bench in a close game, we fell behind. I observed that when we were struggling and went to our bench we got blown out.

I'm not looking for them to be saviors. I'm not arguing that they will push us into elite status. But am I hoping that our bench will at least be able to play even ball with the vast majority of other benches in the league so it doesn't feel like we are constantly playing with an anchor around our ankles? **** yeah.

It might only be 12 mpg, but that's 1 friggin' quarter of the game. Argue all you want about how good the starters either are or aren't, but if we can hold our own for those 12 extra minutes we'll be in a much better spot regardless. What the hell more do people want?

So according to NBA.com our starting lineup had a Net Rating of 3.2. Surprisingly enough, our original starting lineup (with Ilyasova) had the same rating. The Blake-KCP-Stanley-Tolliver-Baynes lineup had a -11.5 rating. Blake-Stanley-Morris-Tolliver-Baynes had a 12.5 rating.

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=MIN*GE*250

Cowology wrote:I think there is validity to both zeeb and Todd's posts... but honestly, I'm kinda taking the official stats out of the equation. What I observed was that virtually every time we had a lead and then went to our bench... that lead went away. I observed that when we went to our bench in a close game, we fell behind. I observed that when we were struggling and went to our bench we got blown out.

THIS x 1 million!

Our bench was useless last season! FML it was painful.

Ish will help immensely. Never underestimate what a real PG can do for a team. Getting the ball to lesser players in the right spots can make them look great - witness a bunch of jobbers getting signed away from contenders and failing as evidence!

I don't believe in certain stats when it comes to our team anyway. Assists are irrelevant for our starters since RJ dominates the ball so much is one example. Boards would be another considering Dre is such a beast.

Ish for 20 minutes, JL for 20 minutes, SJ for 25 minutes...we're coming at you all night long. That's gonna pay off.

Last season teams could rest against our bench. Not anymore.

If I was a coach I'd kill for guys like SJ, Ish, JL, Baynes & King Henry off the pine...

We're not here to **** spiders! We're here to kick arse and chew bubblegum...and we're all outta bubblegum!

Glad to see Ish succeed. I remember his first 2 seasons in the NBA, he was so blazingly fast he made mistakes and overplayed plays. Now, it appears he is fast, but the game has slowed down for him as he is making smart plays. I like that he has chemistry in throwing lobs to Noel. Plus, SVG coached Ish in his 2nd NBA season.

Cowology wrote:I think there is validity to both zeeb and Todd's posts... but honestly, I'm kinda taking the official stats out of the equation. What I observed was that virtually every time we had a lead and then went to our bench... that lead went away. I observed that when we went to our bench in a close game, we fell behind. I observed that when we were struggling and went to our bench we got blown out.

I'm not looking for them to be saviors. I'm not arguing that they will push us into elite status. But am I hoping that our bench will at least be able to play even ball with the vast majority of other benches in the league so it doesn't feel like we are constantly playing with an anchor around our ankles? **** yeah.

It might only be 12 mpg, but that's 1 friggin' quarter of the game. Argue all you want about how good the starters either are or aren't, but if we can hold our own for those 12 extra minutes we'll be in a much better spot regardless. What the hell more do people want?

The bench did give up leads a lot, but can't ignore all the times they actually played great and got us back into games when the starters didn't show up ready to play, and then the starters were the ones to cost us at the end. There were games where Dre/Reggie played like crap and Baynes/Blake had to win it for us, and games where KCP/Morris/Ilyasova played like crap and Bullock/Stanley/Tolliver won it for us.

So yes the bench was a problem, but I think there's some revisionist history going on here as to how bad/good the bench/starters actually were. It also needs to be noted how much Stanley's awful, awful play towards the end of the year contributed to the bad bench play during 16-9. Everyone blames Blake and thus thinks a better PG to run the offense is all we needed, but our bench was actually 5th in the league in AST% during that time with Blake. The reason they were so bad was mostly because of how bad Stanley was and bad defense, and Stanley is still going to be on the bench playing the most the minutes, and Ish/Leuer don't really upgrade the defense.

12 mpg is 1 qtr and it does matter, but the starters playing 33-36 mpg is 3 qtrs and thus obviously matters 3x more. Yes an improved bench will make a difference, but an improved starting lineup would've made a bigger difference. That's all I'm saying. Why did we prioritize upgrading the unit that makes the least difference over the one that makes the most? That's what I don't get.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Vincent_Ellis56/status/750367118529617920

Zeeb was this you?

Nope. I try and contain my nuttiness to Realgm.

All I can think about was how lost Blake seemed in the playoffs last year. Having a good backup PG is a huge improvement for our bench. I think the jury is still out on Hilliard and Bullock - that could be the weak link of the bench. And if we see a good opportunity, I wouldn't mind bringing in one other guy that can play SG. But Stanimal and Baynes and now Leuer, we're looking good. Bench could even be our strength against some teams.

Our bench played the least minutes of any team last season. That isn't likely to change a lot this year. These guys won't have much of an impact.

It's also very telling that in an offense that relies on 3pt shooting to spread the floor that our best 2 shooters will barely combine for 20mpg.

This might add up to another couple wins in the regular season, but come playoffs, we need the power in the starting lineup. This team is going to continue to struggle unless KCP or SJ come into their own and dial in from long range this season.


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epheisey wrote:This might add up to another couple wins in the regular season, but come playoffs, we need the power in the starting lineup. This team is going to continue to struggle unless KCP or SJ come into their own and dial in from long range this season.

That's certainly one way, but it's not the only way.

Another year together for all the important pieces should help the defensive consistency. Stanley has more experience. KCP playing for a big ass contract. Dre continuing to develop on that end. Other ballhandlers to keep Reggie from using all of his energy on one end of the floor.

Some of that might be wishful thinking, but I do expect defensive improvement, which could lead to more wins AND a better playoff showing. We also won't be playing the eventual champs in the first round, I'd hope, and might have HCA.

I want a playoff series win this year. That'll make the season successful to me.

tmorgan wrote:

epheisey wrote:This might add up to another couple wins in the regular season, but come playoffs, we need the power in the starting lineup. This team is going to continue to struggle unless KCP or SJ come into their own and dial in from long range this season.

That's certainly one way, but it's not the only way.

Another year together for all the important pieces should help the defensive consistency. Stanley has more experience. KCP playing for a big ass contract. Dre continuing to develop on that end. Other ballhandlers to keep Reggie from using all of his energy on one end of the floor.

Some of that might be wishful thinking, but I do expect defensive improvement, which could lead to more wins AND a better playoff showing. We also won't be playing the eventual champs in the first round, I'd hope, and might have HCA.

I want a playoff series win this year. That'll make the season successful to me.

The ECF would be sweet. It would have FA look at us in the off season. I think SVG is going for a huge splash this year or next in FA

joedumars1 wrote:

tmorgan wrote:

epheisey wrote:This might add up to another couple wins in the regular season, but come playoffs, we need the power in the starting lineup. This team is going to continue to struggle unless KCP or SJ come into their own and dial in from long range this season.

That's certainly one way, but it's not the only way.

Another year together for all the important pieces should help the defensive consistency. Stanley has more experience. KCP playing for a big ass contract. Dre continuing to develop on that end. Other ballhandlers to keep Reggie from using all of his energy on one end of the floor.

Some of that might be wishful thinking, but I do expect defensive improvement, which could lead to more wins AND a better playoff showing. We also won't be playing the eventual champs in the first round, I'd hope, and might have HCA.

I want a playoff series win this year. That'll make the season successful to me.

The ECF would be sweet. It would have FA look at us in the off season. I think SVG is going for a huge splash this year or next in FA

We only have ~$10.5m left before Drummonds deal kicks in, at which time we would have $0 remaining. Next season we will also need to re-sign KCP if his play warrants such.


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A_dub06 wrote:

joedumars1 wrote:

tmorgan wrote:
That's certainly one way, but it's not the only way.

Another year together for all the important pieces should help the defensive consistency. Stanley has more experience. KCP playing for a big ass contract. Dre continuing to develop on that end. Other ballhandlers to keep Reggie from using all of his energy on one end of the floor.

Some of that might be wishful thinking, but I do expect defensive improvement, which could lead to more wins AND a better playoff showing. We also won't be playing the eventual champs in the first round, I'd hope, and might have HCA.

I want a playoff series win this year. That'll make the season successful to me.

The ECF would be sweet. It would have FA look at us in the off season. I think SVG is going for a huge splash this year or next in FA

We only have ~$10.5m left before Drummonds deal kicks in, at which time we would have $0 remaining. Next season we will also need to re-sign KCP if his play warrants such.


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Yeah probably should've made that more clear. I consider this years FA to be done. I'm talking next year or the next. We can go over the cap (I believe) to sign KCP. Just depends if Gores wants to spend and next year or the next will be the time to do so. That is when most players on the team will be close to their potential.