2017 luxury tax clarification

[Canadafan]

So all that stands in our way of re-signing KCP is basically this.
If no other moves are made, what is the amount of money we have left under the tax to sign him? Assuming Baynes leaves and factoring in draft picks next year.
For **** and giggles, if we did a trade of Bullock+Baynes for a TRoss or similar long term contract?

[coordinator0]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DWFeG156MPjSSd3aOjewz5WzQbc6AiWOqgrOHc2TebM/edit?usp=sharing

The caps hits for 2017 are in the column on the right. When the NBA announced their projections for the 2017 salary cap they also included a $122 million projection for the luxury tax. I don't have a cap hold factored in for the 2017 first round pick but assuming Detroit makes the playoffs it would be from around $1-1.7 million.

Assuming Baynes opts out Detroit is looking at having around $7-7.8 million to work with before the tax line. But Caldwell-Pope is already accounting for $9,195,797 with his cap hold. And then there's Bullock at $5,639,111, and one of Brown or McCallum at $1,014,746. The Pistons won't have much of a problem re-signing Kentavious at around $20-22 million per year on average (and the first year cap hit would likely be smaller) and staying under the line. It's looking like it will take renouncing Bullock and Brown or McCallum, but they will be able to stay under with replacing one of them with another minimum deal. The first round pick puts them at 15 roster spots.

That's also assuming the NBA is exact with their projections when they're usually at least a couple of million under. Adding someone with long-term money like Ross in addition to re-signing Caldwell-Pope would easily put them over though. That's a no-no.

[Canadafan]

OK thanks for info man. That explains it greatly.
So no to a Ross like move I guess. Guess SVG knows what he's doing. Baynes will leave next summer and Boban will be ready to take over. KCP will sign and we will renounce Bullock I guess. Or replace him with a minimum player or draft pick.
Kinda sux

[joedumars1]

I don't want Ross at all. Idk why ppl do. Locks us up in a biggish contract for awhile. He's not that good either

[detroitKG]

OK thanks for info man. That explains it greatly.
So no to a Ross like move I guess. Guess SVG knows what he's doing. Baynes will leave next summer and Boban will be ready to take over. KCP will sign and we will renounce Bullock I guess. Or replace him with a minimum player or draft pick.
Kinda sux

I mean wouldn't we still have Hilliard and/or Gbenije to step in with another year of experience under their belts?
Hardly a bleak outlook at back up SG if we lose Bullock in favor of keeping KCP.

That situation aside it's still so refreshing to have a FO that plans long term ala the Baynes/Boban situation..

[Canadafan]

Ya, whether it's Bullock or Hilliard as his main backup is the same difference to me. Neither excite me too much. Was kinda hoping we could get a guy better than either of those 2 and on a longer term contract.
I definitely want us to keep KCP. Pretty much my favourite piston right now.
I guess best case scenario(or our only other option) if we are going to lose Baynes, is to trade him for a guy making near $5/year. That's about the max we can afford without going over the tax next year.
Let the 2pg's and Bullock go. And hope KCP's cap hold is around 20.
So most likely we stay the course for this year lol.

[coordinator0]

I guess best case scenario(or our only other option) if we are going to lose Baynes, is to trade him for a guy making near $5/year. That's about the max we can afford without going over the tax next year.

Even that would be dicey. If Detroit could keep that kind of deal on the books then they wouldn't have to renounce Bullock to stay under the tax line. The Pistons still might be able to do that depending on what the cap/tax is actually set at and what Caldwell-Pope actually signs for, but I wouldn't bet Baynes is traded for someone with years left on their deal past this season. Not unless he's part of a package with a player (or two) in Detroit that does as well.

For next offseason (disregarding trades) I'm fully expecting Baynes to opt out, Caldwell-Pope being re-signed, the 2017 first round pick used, and then a minimum signing being made. Maybe Bullock is brought back instead of bringing in someone for the minimum if he can be had on the cheap. Pretty boring and not much turnover, but that's how the roster is constructed.

[Pharaoh]

[waits for Todd to post in thread]

[Joe Berry]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2016/08/07/detroit-pistons-owner-tom-gores/88360018/

Gores has no problem to pay tax if necessary and other than maybe backup SG this roster looks pretty good, so no worries. I hope they can strike a deal with KCP this offseason. But his agent Rich Paul is not easy to deal with. Even 20 mil per year is OK imo. It could get kinda ugly if KCP demands (and gets) a max offer from another team next offseason. It depends where the salary cap lands next offseason (102-108 mil). His max contract could start at like 24-25 mil for a guy with less than 6 years in the NBA. I don't think KCP should make more than Andre, but it could happen.

[Manocad]

[waits for TSE to post in thread]

[coordinator0]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2016/08/07/detroit-pistons-owner-tom-gores/88360018/

Gores has no problem to pay tax if necessary and other than maybe backup SG this roster looks pretty good, so no worries. I hope they can strike a deal with KCP this offseason. But his agent Rich Paul is not easy to deal with. Even 20 mil per year is OK imo. It could get kinda ugly if KCP demands (and gets) a max offer from another team next offseason. It depends where the salary cap lands next offseason (102-108 mil). His max contract could start at like 24-25 mil for a guy with less than 6 years in the NBA. I don't think KCP should make more than Andre, but it could happen.

Some good stuff in there.

Q: With a possible KCP extension, you could threaten the luxury tax line (an NBA mechanism to curtail teams’ spending). Thoughts on being a luxury taxpayer?

Spoiler:

Gores: “Look, if we weren’t building a core, there’s really no point in paying the luxury tax. Because we are building a core, would I do it? Yeah, absolutely. This is a tremendous team. If you go down the line, player by player, and especially our young folks, these are real players. You look at KCP as a very diverse player. He keeps working at his game and you look at his improvement and just like anybody else, he will improve in other areas. Part of Stan’s coaching philosophy obviously is defense. So you say go into the luxury tax for nothing, then that would be silly because then we’re putting the franchise behind. But given that we have such a good core, if that’s what it took, and we feel we’ve made such progress this year, I wouldn’t hesitate to do it because we want to keep getting better.”

Q: It’s almost like the decision is made for you.

Spoiler:

Gores: “Exactly. This is a group of guys that has that chemistry. You could have the skills, but if you don’t have the chemistry, that wouldn’t make sense. I’ve seen these guys together a lot, and having grown up in Flint, I’m always able to read energy, see how folks are getting along and so on. They really have a nice energy with each other. I can say down the line I really haven’t seen a real selfish quality. … I think we have a group of unselfish guys, willing to come together. Stan doesn’t like selfish, either. He runs a culture of a team. A team is not one man. We’ve only got a few people in the league that can do it on their own. I like this group.”

But going back to the tax thing I think the team/Gores would still like to avoid it as long as possible to at least push the possibility of the repeater penalty down the road even further. They should be able to do that next summer pretty easily. If the cost of it is losing Bullock then that isn't a huge deal, especially if the team drafts a shooting guard with the first round pick.

[Pharaoh]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2016/08/07/detroit-pistons-owner-tom-gores/88360018/

Gores has no problem to pay tax if necessary and other than maybe backup SG this roster looks pretty good, so no worries. I hope they can strike a deal with KCP this offseason. But his agent Rich Paul is not easy to deal with. Even 20 mil per year is OK imo. It could get kinda ugly if KCP demands (and gets) a max offer from another team next offseason. It depends where the salary cap lands next offseason (102-108 mil). His max contract could start at like 24-25 mil for a guy with less than 6 years in the NBA. I don't think KCP should make more than Andre, but it could happen.

Some good stuff in there.

Q: With a possible KCP extension, you could threaten the luxury tax line (an NBA mechanism to curtail teams’ spending). Thoughts on being a luxury taxpayer?

Spoiler:

Gores: “Look, if we weren’t building a core, there’s really no point in paying the luxury tax. Because we are building a core, would I do it? Yeah, absolutely. This is a tremendous team. If you go down the line, player by player, and especially our young folks, these are real players. You look at KCP as a very diverse player. He keeps working at his game and you look at his improvement and just like anybody else, he will improve in other areas. Part of Stan’s coaching philosophy obviously is defense. So you say go into the luxury tax for nothing, then that would be silly because then we’re putting the franchise behind. But given that we have such a good core, if that’s what it took, and we feel we’ve made such progress this year, I wouldn’t hesitate to do it because we want to keep getting better.”

Q: It’s almost like the decision is made for you.

Spoiler:

Gores: “Exactly. This is a group of guys that has that chemistry. You could have the skills, but if you don’t have the chemistry, that wouldn’t make sense. I’ve seen these guys together a lot, and having grown up in Flint, I’m always able to read energy, see how folks are getting along and so on. They really have a nice energy with each other. I can say down the line I really haven’t seen a real selfish quality. … I think we have a group of unselfish guys, willing to come together. Stan doesn’t like selfish, either. He runs a culture of a team. A team is not one man. We’ve only got a few people in the league that can do it on their own. I like this group.”

But going back to the tax thing I think the team/Gores would still like to avoid it as long as possible to at least push the possibility of the repeater penalty down the road even further. They should be able to do that next summer pretty easily. If the cost of it is losing Bullock then that isn't a huge deal, especially if the team drafts a shooting guard with the first round pick.

Agree, but with Hilliard & Benji around (& SJ) we're not forced to draft a SG in the first round.

Great find on the tax - nice to know VanBower didn't assemble this squad only to have the owner crap on it

[zeebneeb]

You know this SG rotation thing is really wierd. The Pistons are damn deep but it seems like we have a ton of flex players who can fill in at any position it seems.

I think all of us are really over thinking it.

Bullock, Hilliard, Benji, hell even Stanley can all play SG easily on this team. I think we get a little wierd about it because the other positions are absolute in who the backup is.

Now on the other hand, if we can keep him, and Bullock plays like he did to end the year that would be great but who the hell knows.

The only position of uncertainty; backup SG.

I love it.

[DBC10]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2016/08/07/detroit-pistons-owner-tom-gores/88360018/

Gores has no problem to pay tax if necessary and other than maybe backup SG this roster looks pretty good, so no worries. I hope they can strike a deal with KCP this offseason. But his agent Rich Paul is not easy to deal with. Even 20 mil per year is OK imo. It could get kinda ugly if KCP demands (and gets) a max offer from another team next offseason. It depends where the salary cap lands next offseason (102-108 mil). His max contract could start at like 24-25 mil for a guy with less than 6 years in the NBA. I don't think KCP should make more than Andre, but it could happen.

Some good stuff in there.

Q: With a possible KCP extension, you could threaten the luxury tax line (an NBA mechanism to curtail teams’ spending). Thoughts on being a luxury taxpayer?

Spoiler:

Gores: “Look, if we weren’t building a core, there’s really no point in paying the luxury tax. Because we are building a core, would I do it? Yeah, absolutely. This is a tremendous team. If you go down the line, player by player, and especially our young folks, these are real players. You look at KCP as a very diverse player. He keeps working at his game and you look at his improvement and just like anybody else, he will improve in other areas. Part of Stan’s coaching philosophy obviously is defense. So you say go into the luxury tax for nothing, then that would be silly because then we’re putting the franchise behind. But given that we have such a good core, if that’s what it took, and we feel we’ve made such progress this year, I wouldn’t hesitate to do it because we want to keep getting better.”

Q: It’s almost like the decision is made for you.

Spoiler:

Gores: “Exactly. This is a group of guys that has that chemistry. You could have the skills, but if you don’t have the chemistry, that wouldn’t make sense. I’ve seen these guys together a lot, and having grown up in Flint, I’m always able to read energy, see how folks are getting along and so on. They really have a nice energy with each other. I can say down the line I really haven’t seen a real selfish quality. … I think we have a group of unselfish guys, willing to come together. Stan doesn’t like selfish, either. He runs a culture of a team. A team is not one man. We’ve only got a few people in the league that can do it on their own. I like this group.”

But going back to the tax thing I think the team/Gores would still like to avoid it as long as possible to at least push the possibility of the repeater penalty down the road even further. They should be able to do that next summer pretty easily. If the cost of it is losing Bullock then that isn't a huge deal, especially if the team drafts a shooting guard with the first round pick.

Agree, but with Hilliard & Benji around (& SJ) we're not forced to draft a SG in the first round.

Great find on the tax - nice to know VanBower didn't assemble this squad only to have the owner crap on it

Yeah, no matter what happens, I think it's safe and assuring that Gores will do whatever it takes to make this team relevant but only talking with his ability to spend generously. That's a lot better than someone like Sarver or the former Maloofs.

I have a feeling the KCP situation will get cleared up decently.

[bjones521]

Wouldnt be shocked if KCP is traded before the deadline. He has alot of value as teams view him as a superb defender but does his 30% 3pt shooting and lack of ballhandling outweigh his defense. I think it does in the eyes of SVG. Dont forget SVG tried the trade for Even Fournier but Orl offered Tobias instead.

[coordinator0]

Wouldnt be shocked if KCP is traded before the deadline. He has alot of value as teams view him as a superb defender but does his 30% 3pt shooting and lack of ballhandling outweigh his defense. I think it does in the eyes of SVG. Dont forget SVG tried the trade for Even Fournier but Orl offered Tobias instead.

Nah, the trade was including Fournier not with him in place of Harris but Orlando wasn't going to bite on that. If Caldwell-Pope is traded then it's more than likely someone in the same mold (defense, not a plus shooter) is coming back somehow. A backcourt of Jackson and another subpar defender couldn't function if you want the team to actually win.

[DBC10]

Wouldnt be shocked if KCP is traded before the deadline. He has alot of value as teams view him as a superb defender but does his 30% 3pt shooting and lack of ballhandling outweigh his defense. I think it does in the eyes of SVG. Dont forget SVG tried the trade for Even Fournier but Orl offered Tobias instead.

Magic also dealt Dipo and him and KCP are in the same mold of players. Stan was likely just asset loading since he only seem to do big moves through trades. I wouldn't put too much stock in the Fournier thing, considering we were barely looking at upgrading the SG spot during this year's FA. If Stan really wanted to upgrade or load up on shooting, he'd have gotten someone like Bayless, Courtney, or E. Gordon, but he didn't.

[Joe Berry]

good luck dealing KCP on a rookie contract looking for an upgrade at the same position, sounds totally realistic.

[BadMofoPimp]

Unless packaged to obtain an All-Star or Superstar level player, there is a zero chance KCP is being dealt. He is the anchor of this entire teams defense. He is way too important to this team to just give away for players that only have better shooting percentages.

[coordinator0]

good luck dealing KCP on a rookie contract looking for an upgrade at the same position, sounds totally realistic.

Pretty much. With the Pistons being over the cap they don't have any space to absorb more salary coming back in a trade, so the player coming in has to match or be less than Caldwell-Pope's salary of $3,678,319 if the deal is a 1-for-1. Even if you add Baynes' $6.5 million there aren't any good/available shooting guards out there who are making a hair over $10 million.

Everybody else with meaningful salary on the roster is needed in the rotation. There's Bullock, Brown/McCallum, Hilliard, or Gbinije but none of those guys add any real value to a deal. They could be nice throw-ins for some teams but that's about it. Johnson and Ellenson are on rookie deals but I would be absolutely stunned if Stanley gets moved and I doubt Henry moves the needle much.

So yeah, if Caldwell-Pope is traded it's going to be a huge deal on Detroit's end given the impact to the lineup. Teams aren't going to trade their good players on rookie contracts (matching salaries) for Kentavious since he's getting a big deal next summer even if the Pistons include a first round pick.