RealGM

So over the summer several of us(myself included) Piston realgm folk lost our damn mind over certain players (Pope) and how important it is to have shooters surrounding our dynamic duo of Andre/Reggie in SVG's system. It is without question integral to how the Pistons play offense in Stan's system, but how good/poor was this team?

Now we have all read about shipping certain players (Pope) out for other shooters (insert name of a 36%+shooter) to better facilitate Stans offense and to properly utilize the best pick and roll duo in the league.

Whats this thread about?

I am going to break it all down so we are all on the same page. No more shady stats used to support one theory or another, but simple, easy to understand stats that will show how the team fared within Stans system. Here is what im going to be looking at.

YEARLY / MONTHLY / WITHOUT TOBIAS / WITH TOBIAS

This will give us all an accurate understanding on where the team is at in Stans 3-pointer reliant system. I will be including how many 3 pointers were attempted and appropriate rank. Percentage of 3 pointers made and appropriate rank, 3-pointers attempted and appropriate rank, as well as overall FG% Simple, and easy to understand. The Yearly stats will run from October 27th to April 13th. The without Tobias will run from October 27th to February 21st. The with Tobias will run from February 22nd(WHEN TOBIAS WAS IN THE STARTING LINEUP)to April 13th. *T=tie

Lets get started shall we?

YEARLY

3-Point% RANK 21st

3-point% 34.5%

3-point attempts RANK 10th

3-point attempts 26.2

3-point makes RANK 10th

3-point makes 9.0

FG% RANK 26th

FG% 43.9%

So, for the YEAR the Detroit Pistons were well below average in 3 point percentage while being in the top ten for both attempts, and for makes. The teams overall FG percentage was also terrible. This is not a good statistic. Lets move on.

WITHOUT TOBIAS (OCTOBER 27TH-FEBRUARY 21ST)

3-point% RANK 23rd

3-point% 33.7%

3-point attempts RANK 9th

3-point attempts 26.5

3-point makes RANK 11th

3-point makes 8.9

FG% RANK 28th

FG% 43.5%

So without Harris in the starting lineup period the Pistons were just a terrible, terrible shooting team ranking 23rd in 3p% and 28th in overall FG%. Crash and burn bad. It was compounded by the fact that the team took the 9th most threes in the game.

WITH TOBIAS (FEBRUARY 22ND-APRIL 13TH)

3-point% RANK T-13th

3-point% 36%

3-point attempts RANK 12th

3-point attempts 25.6

3-point makes RANK 10th

3-point makes 9.2

FG% RANK 23rd

FG% 44.9

With this easy to read and understand chart it becomes clear that with Tobias Harris in the starting lineup the Detroit Pistons became an above average 3-point shooting team.(though still a below average FG% team) This stems from several things, but it also directly points to Harris being able to create on offense for himself, and others allowing all players to get better shots. The narrative that the Detroit Pistons are a poor, or even average 3-point shooting team is without question incorrect.

MONTHLY FG/3-POINT PERCENTAGE

OCTOBER-3GAMES- FG%-38.7 28TH 3P%-32.9 19TH

NOVEMBER-15GAMES- FG%-42.1 26TH 3P%-30.6% 29TH

DECEMBER-15GAMES- FG%-44.2 22ND 3P%-36.5% T-11TH

JANUARY- 15GAMES- FG%-45.0 18TH 3P%-33.4% 22ND

FEBRUARY- 12GAMES- FG%-45.1 T-21ST 3P%-36.9% 9TH

MARCH- 15GAMES- FG%-45.3 18TH 3P%-32.8% 25TH

APRIL- 7GAMES- FG%-42.4% 26TH 3P%-40% 4TH



BONUS ROUND PLAYOFFS

4 GAMES FG%-47.8% 1ST 3P%-37.6% 6TH

The Detroit Pistons became a good three point shooting team with room to grow when Tobias Harris joined the team. There are many factors but the Pistons are NOT a bad three point shooting team. With a full training camp, and even better shooters joining the team in the offseason, I expect these percentages to all go up next year.

Nice work, thanks.

But I'm not sure I'm buying into Tobias being a major factor in three point shooting improvement. Why do you think he had such a positive impact?

Laimbeer wrote:Nice work, thanks.

But I'm not sure I'm buying into Tobias being a major factor in three point shooting improvement. Why do you think he had such a positive impact?

I touched on it a little but to expand it is because he is dynamic with the ball. Erson was pretty much a stand still shooter on offense and when not open swung the ball to other players. On rare occasion he would drive but that was really, really rare. Tobias on the other hand can drive, post up, AND shoot three. He gets players open just by being him, and this became obvious as he became part of the starters.

This is also the reason why I am saying Leure is a HUGE addition to this team as he does the exact same things Harris does, but for the bench.

So to summerize we replaced a stand still shooter in Erson with a dynamic player in Harris, and we have done the same with Toliver with Leure.

Its a huge, huge upgrade. Dynamic players get everyone better shots.

Tobias himself shot 37.5% as a Piston. Do we know what the rest of the team shot after he arrived?

Laimbeer wrote:Tobias himself shot 37.5% as a Piston. Do we know what the rest of the team shot after he arrived?

Um, yes?

Its in the first post.

With Tobias.

?

Yes and no. The question was how did the rest of the team shoot with Tobias in the lineup. Your stat shows what the entire team including Tobias shot. That being said, if he shot 37.5% himself and the entire team shot 36% including Tobias, that means the rest of the team probably shot around 35% or so when he was in the lineup.

Manocad wrote:Yes and no. The question was how did the rest of the team shoot with Tobias in the lineup. Your stat shows what the entire team including Tobias shot. That being said, if he shot 37.5% himself and the entire team shot 36% including Tobias, that means the rest of the team probably shot around 35% or so when he was in the lineup.

That sounds like a lot of work.

I didnt get it at first, but now I do.

Good question. I would like to see that stat. I wonder if there is an easy way to do this...

Can you post the 3 point % Mook, SJ, KCP & RJ shot with & without Harris?

Break each dude down by month

I wonder if Morris started his Curry like shooting because of Tobias' arrival or if he just got super hot to end the season. Seems like he really broke out at the end which should account for a decent part in those improved team numbers.

topsearch92 wrote:I wonder if Morris started his Curry like shooting because of Tobias' arrival or if he just got super hot to end the season. Seems like he really broke out at the end which should account for a decent part in those improved team numbers.

Yep. I want to be optimistic, but the only real differences I noticed in our offense between the first half and second half of the season were that:

1) SJ fell off, hard
2) Morris started shooting out of his mind

I'm not going to blame Tobias for SJ, obviously, and I don't feel comfortable giving him too much credit for Mook's barrage, either. Maybe a little. He does help the team get better shots in general by being versatile.

But Eric Gordon...

zeebneeb wrote:

Manocad wrote:Yes and no. The question was how did the rest of the team shoot with Tobias in the lineup. Your stat shows what the entire team including Tobias shot. That being said, if he shot 37.5% himself and the entire team shot 36% including Tobias, that means the rest of the team probably shot around 35% or so when he was in the lineup.

That sounds like a lot of work.

I didnt get it at first, but now I do.

Good question. I would like to see that stat. I wonder if there is an easy way to do this...

Just subtract Tobias' share from the total. He was 33 of 88 as a Piston.

tmorgan wrote:

topsearch92 wrote:I wonder if Morris started his Curry like shooting because of Tobias' arrival or if he just got super hot to end the season. Seems like he really broke out at the end which should account for a decent part in those improved team numbers.

Yep. I want to be optimistic, but the only real differences I noticed in our offense between the first half and second half of the season were that:

1) SJ fell off, hard
2) Morris started shooting out of his mind

I'm not going to blame Tobias for SJ, obviously, and I don't feel comfortable giving him too much credit for Mook's barrage, either. Maybe a little. He does help the team get better shots in general by being versatile.

I think Morris certainly benefited from playing together with Harris. I don't have hard stats but from the eye test he could spot up more shots and more easily because Harris handled the Ball more and created more easy shots not just for Morris but everyone else too. The Pistons starting lineup really, really needed another guy comfortable with the ball in his hands other than Reggie and Harris filled that role very well.


Very nice breakdown by Zeeb. Also there is still a lot of room for KCP and Stanley to improve, if the Pistons will be a contender down the line those two guys will have to become above average 3pt shooters. By the way, guess who made the most 3s last season? Warriors and Cleveland. Regular and Postseason per game.

That said the Pistons still lack a guy who can shoot the 3 at an elite level. No one will be as good as Curry or Thompson, but a JR Smith, Redick type of shooter could take this team to the next level. 40% making more than two 3s per game. I think Bullock has a chance to be that guy because his shot is already very, very good - but SVG has to play him more than 11 min per game & the whole season and basically establish a 10 man rotation to find out if Bullock can be that guy.

Joe Berry wrote:

tmorgan wrote:

topsearch92 wrote:I wonder if Morris started his Curry like shooting because of Tobias' arrival or if he just got super hot to end the season. Seems like he really broke out at the end which should account for a decent part in those improved team numbers.

Yep. I want to be optimistic, but the only real differences I noticed in our offense between the first half and second half of the season were that:

1) SJ fell off, hard
2) Morris started shooting out of his mind

I'm not going to blame Tobias for SJ, obviously, and I don't feel comfortable giving him too much credit for Mook's barrage, either. Maybe a little. He does help the team get better shots in general by being versatile.

I think Morris certainly benefited from playing together with Harris. I don't have hard stats but from the eye test he could spot up more shots and more easily because Harris handled the Ball more and created more easy shots not just for Morris but everyone else too. The Pistons starting lineup really, really needed another guy comfortable with the ball in his hands other than Reggie and Harris filled that role very well.


Very nice breakdown by Zeeb. Also there is still a lot of room for KCP and Stanley to improve, if the Pistons will be a contender down the line those two guys will have to become above average 3pt shooters. By the way, guess who made the most 3s last season? Warriors and Cleveland. Regular and Postseason per game.

That said the Pistons still lack a guy who can shoot the 3 at an elite level. No one will be as good as Curry or Thompson, but a JR Smith, Redick type of shooter could take this team to the next level. 40% making more than two 3s per game. I think Bullock has a chance to be that guy because his shot is already very, very good - but SVG has to play him more than 11 min per game & the whole season and basically establish a 10 man rotation to find out if Bullock can be that guy.

This thread took an unexpected turn for me. I didnt intend it to be about Harris himself, but to highlight that the team is not a bad three point shooting team. It just so happened that the team became an above average three point shooting team when Harris arrived, and I think its due to better movement on offense, and indeed, like you stated, Harris handling the ball. Erson while filling a role, slowed down the offense and made it very predictable. When guarding Erson you never had to worry about collapsing on him as he never drove into the lane, you only had to worry about a close out.

Harris on the other hand creates a myriad of problems as he can do everything, just like Morris. Those two on the floor create mis-matches as they are essentially the same player.

Now for three point shooting league average last year was .354% Since 1996-97 season its around the 35% mark.

Here is a list of the Pistons players currently on the roster and all of their averages;

Reggie Jackson-35.3%
Caldwell-pope-30.9%
Marcus Morris-36.3%
Tobias Harris-33.5%
Andre Drummond N/A

Ish Smith-32.9%
Reggie Bullock-41.5%
Stanley Johnson-30.7%
Darrun Hilliard-38%
Jon Leuer-38.2%
Arron Baynes-N/A
BoBo-N/A

If Pope can get his 3P% back up to last year (34.5%) that would be fantastic. His shot is fine, his selection is crap.

Remember these stats are for the season, not when Harris hit. I cant seem to sort players like I can with teams putting in specific dates. Sucks. I am confident in two players on the team that could become excellent three point shooters gieven the time and thats Leuer, and Bullock. Both have sweet strokes. Jackson just shot his career best so expect a dip in that production this coming year.

zeebneeb wrote:
Erson was pretty much a stand still shooter on offense and when not open swung the ball to other players. On rare occasion he would drive but that was really, really rare.

I do miss Erson's awkward White Boy drives with a couple of seconds left on the clock, every once in awhile his shot would fall and the bench would go bananas!

Great work, Zeeb!

I think this is what you guys want.

Before and after the trade. Then with Harris on/off the court after the trade.

So basically everyone except Marcus (and small sample size Bullock) shot better from 3 when Tobias was out, but Marcus lit **** up with Tobias on the court. That's crazy.

Irate wrote:I think this is what you guys want.

Before and after the trade. Then with Harris on/off the court after the trade.

In other words, the difference was all Morris/Bullock, and if they shoot 45-50% from 3 again next year, we'll be a slightly above average 3P team.

Todd3 wrote:In other words, the difference was all Morris/Bullock, and if they shoot 45-50% from 3 again next year, we'll be a slightly above average 3P team.

Why is the 3pt so important to you? A 3pt shot stopped a bullet going to your mother's head?

tmorgan wrote:

topsearch92 wrote:I wonder if Morris started his Curry like shooting because of Tobias' arrival or if he just got super hot to end the season. Seems like he really broke out at the end which should account for a decent part in those improved team numbers.

Yep. I want to be optimistic, but the only real differences I noticed in our offense between the first half and second half of the season were that:

1) SJ fell off, hard
2) Morris started shooting out of his mind

I'm not going to blame Tobias for SJ, obviously, and I don't feel comfortable giving him too much credit for Mook's barrage, either. Maybe a little. He does help the team get better shots in general by being versatile.

Morris' late season barrage was likely just the law of averages of a career 36% guy being due after starting 30%.