Why do we seem to give Ben a pass on free throws but not Dre?

[Laimbeer]

Whenever Ben comes up, it seems his free throw shooting isn't tossed into the conversation nearly as frequently as it is for Dre. Sort of seems like we accept Ben for what he was but insist Dre can and should get better.

[MotownMadness]

I just don't remember hacking being as common as it was now. I mean it happened but now it's like a for sure thing every night. Plus Ben was one of the best defenders ever and his team could literally hold opponents under 70 points.

[Phenomenonsense]

Because Andre is an average defender.

[Cowology]

Ben was primarily a 1 sided player. His impact was predominantly defensive. His offensive role, while not insignificant, focused more on setting screens and getting offensive rebounds.

Dre is expected to be a focal point offensively. If opposing teams are able to disrupt that part of his game he loses significant on the court value.

The two guys have very different games and play very different roles. The difference between Ben shooting 40% on his 2.5 FTA per game and Dre shooting 40% on what should be closer to 10+ FTA per game is huge.

[Uncle Mxy]

Fear the free fro

[Laimbeer]

Ben was a much better defender, but why should that prevent people from applying the "poor free throw shooting is inexcusable" to Ben in the same way they do to Dre?

[Manocad]

Ben was primarily a 1 sided player. His impact was predominantly defensive. His offensive role, while not insignificant, focused more on setting screens and getting offensive rebounds.

Dre is expected to be a focal point offensively. If opposing teams are able to disrupt that part of his game he loses significant on the court value.

The two guys have very different games and play very different roles. The difference between Ben shooting 40% on his 2.5 FTA per game and Dre shooting 40% on what should be closer to 10+ FTA per game is huge.

Whoomp.
There it is.

[tmorgan]

Shakka lakka shakka lakka...

[Snakebites]

Yeah, what Cow said.

We were never reliant on Ben for anything on offense. We never went to him down low, or even relied on him to get points off of his offensive rebounds like we need Dre to.

[hoophabit]

Ben never had the potential for dominance as does Andre. This leads to greater fan frustration where Drummond is concerned. Teams could have used the strategy to get Ben off the floor, but never thought the benefit outweighed the cost. FTs are the only thing that prevents Drummond from being one of the preeminent players in the League. Drummond must have been doing something right in other areas of the game for teams to conclude putting themselves into the penalty to get him off the floor, even at the start of quarters, was their best course? That it worked makes it that much more frustrating. Naturally, the biggest cause for concern for Pistons fans.

[Billl]

Ben was a much better defender, but why should that prevent people from applying the "poor free throw shooting is inexcusable" to Ben in the same way they do to Dre?

Because that pistons team didn't even really mind if Ben got hacked. All that meant was that teams had to play against our set halfcourt defense over, and over, and over. We WANTED a grind it out slugfest.

If the current pistons team played halfcourt defense like that, very few teams would be hack-a-dre'ing. It's only effective against us because we are giving up points on the other end much faster than Dre is hitting FT's.

[flow]

1. Ben wasn't the worst free throw shooter in league history.
2. They weren't doing hack-a-ben like they're doing hack-a-dre.
3. Ben was a better/more impactful basketball player.

.

[Cowology]

Ben was a much better defender, but why should that prevent people from applying the "poor free throw shooting is inexcusable" to Ben in the same way they do to Dre?

Because that pistons team didn't even really mind if Ben got hacked. All that meant was that teams had to play against our set halfcourt defense over, and over, and over. We WANTED a grind it out slugfest.

If the current pistons team played halfcourt defense like that, very few teams would be hack-a-dre'ing. It's only effective against us because we are giving up points on the other end much faster than Dre is hitting FT's.

Excellent point.

[hoophabit]

You can't play defense like the 2004 team. Remember, the Pistons won a championship, and naturally the rules were changed.

Some of you might want to reconsider whether a player who was 26 YO when he came to the Pistons will, in the end, be considered a "better/more impactful basketball player" than Drummond. If you look at each players first four years in the league Drummond clearly has been better, even though Drummond is now one year older than Ben was in his rookie season. It's fallacious at this point to evaluate Drummond against Ben's entire career.

[mattao313]

Ben was a much much better defensive player. Even SVG said it if Andre gets stops on the other end he won't take him out. Andre ain't a beast on defense so he gets taken out because he is killing the offense.

[The Penguin]

Completely agree on the offensive role differences, but the difference in hacking strategy between the eras can not be undersold. Pop was really the only one who hacked Shaq with any sort of regularity and Shaq was really the only guy in the league who received that treatment. It was meant as a deterrent to Shaq's individual offensive game, not to decrease total points scored. This was well before analytics stormed the league and teams were concerned with an analytical approach to points per possession. It was never thought of as a logical strategy to purposely hack a guy like Ben away from the ball to minimize points scored just like the shot charts of guys like Chauncey / Rip / Sheed would likely look much different now with the increased emphasis on 3 point shooting.

[flow]

You can't play defense like the 2004 team. Remember, the Pistons won a championship, and naturally the rules were changed.

Some of you might want to reconsider whether a player who was 26 YO when he came to the Pistons will, in the end, be considered a "better/more impactful basketball player" than Drummond. If you look at each players first four years in the league Drummond clearly has been better, even though Drummond is now one year older than Ben was in his rookie season. It's fallacious at this point to evaluate Drummond against Ben's entire career.

I can't tell the future. There's nothing to reconsider because the question posed by op was in the present; why we feel a certain way towards each player presently. And Ben was a better/more impactful player for the Pistons than Drummond has been to this point. Could that change in the future? Sure. It's in Drummond's hands. We'll see how it plays out.

[chrbal]

1. Ben wasn't the worst free throw shooter in league history.
2. They weren't doing hack-a-ben like they're doing hack-a-dre.
3. Ben was a better/more impactful basketball player.

.

4- Drummond would be unstoppable if he could hit about 60%. Ben had no real offensive game, but was amazing on defense and rebounding.

[hoophabit]

You can't play defense like the 2004 team. Remember, the Pistons won a championship, and naturally the rules were changed.

Some of you might want to reconsider whether a player who was 26 YO when he came to the Pistons will, in the end, be considered a "better/more impactful basketball player" than Drummond. If you look at each players first four years in the league Drummond clearly has been better, even though Drummond is now one year older than Ben was in his rookie season. It's fallacious at this point to evaluate Drummond against Ben's entire career.

I can't tell the future. There's nothing to reconsider because the question posed by op was in the present; why we feel a certain way towards each player presently. And Ben was a better/more impactful player for the Pistons than Drummond has been to this point. Could that change in the future? Sure. It's in Drummond's hands. We'll see how it plays out.

I'm a little confused by your reply. Essentially, you reword my objections to an unqualified comparing of Drummond's early career to Ben's entire career, and then assert that the OP requires such a comparison? I don't think it does. It seems to me that a response to the question in the OP needs to go to the different expectations and perceived ceilings of the two players (or at least Drummond's, as Ben's are no longer in question.)

I completely agree with the points you make immediately above. I can't tell the future either, but, excepting a career ending injury or some kind of personal meltdown, Drummond appears to be headed to a better overall career. I think a lot of it is the difference between looking fondly back at past achievement, and dealing with the frustrations of the present.

[Warspite]

Ben was a much better defender, but why should that prevent people from applying the "poor free throw shooting is inexcusable" to Ben in the same way they do to Dre?

Because that pistons team didn't even really mind if Ben got hacked. All that meant was that teams had to play against our set halfcourt defense over, and over, and over. We WANTED a grind it out slugfest.

If the current pistons team played halfcourt defense like that, very few teams would be hack-a-dre'ing. It's only effective against us because we are giving up points on the other end much faster than Dre is hitting FT's.

To add on to this. Rip and Billups were 90% FT shooters so they didn't mind being in the penalty early after a hack a ben strategy. This team doesn't have that type of FT shooting so they cant make teams pay at the FT line. FTAs also allow you to set up your defense and with a defense that holds teams to under 70pts the strategy could be countered in more ways.

There are several ways to counter the hack a shaq strategy.

1. shoot a high FT%
2. play better half court defense
3. have elite FT shooters to take adv of being in the penalty.