A very frank discussion of the state of the Pistons

[blueadams]

So.. Looking at this team heading into the off-season..

C: Drummond(23)(23.8M-3yrs) - - - - - Marjanovic(28)(7M-2yrs)
PF: Harris(24)(16M-2yrs) - - - - - Leuer(27)(10.5M-3yrs), Ellenson(19)(1.8M-3yrs)
SF: Morris(27)(5M-2yrs) - - - - - Johnson(20)(3.1M-2yrs)
SG: Pope(23)(RFA) - - - - - Gbinije(24)(0.9M-2yrs)
PG: Jackson(26)(16M-3yrs) - - - - - Smith(28)(6M-2yrs)

FA: Baynes(30)(PO), Bullock(25)(RFA), Hilliard(23)(TO), Udrih(UFA)
X: Smith(5.4M-3yrs), Gray(0.5M-1yr)

I think we need to..

#1) Retain KCP. It's a tough pill to swallow, giving KCP a max contract. But hey, that's today's NBA, and that's his market value. He's shooting 39% from 3 this season, he's playing plus defense, he's young, he's improving, intangibles, etc. It's really -- as hard as it might be to believe -- a no-brainer decision. Fortunately, he's an RFA, so we can take care of some other business before going over the cap to resign him.

#2) Trade Reggie Jackson and upgrade at PG via FA. Now, the 2017-18 NBA Salary Cap is projected to be set at about 102M, last I read. Returning salaries on our books heading into this summer (including J. Smith and A. Gray) = 96M. So.. that's only 6M in cap space, minus whatever KCP's cap-hold is.. So.. basically zero cap space we have going into this summer. But. There are going to be some really great PG options available in FA.
-K. Lowry(30). He's shooting .444 from 3 this season, he's a plus defender, and he's one of the league's most underrated superstars. He's got an ETO, and he's probably going to get a max deal.
-G. Hill(30). He's shooting .475 from 3 this season, he's a plus defender, and he's also very underrated. He's an UFA.
-P. Mills(28). He's shooting .435 from 3 this season, and he's a slightly negative defender, but he's also Spurs-trained, and IMO, on the verge of breaking out in a big way for some lucky team.

...Now. As is, are we going to have the cap space to sign any of these guys? No. But if we could move Reggie before the deadline.. most certainly. If we were to get any assets back, I'd consider any such move a major coup. If all we were to get back was the ensuing cap-space.. it'd still be a huge success. Simple fact of the matter is.. and there's a lot that can be said about Reggie.. but the simple fact of the matter to me is that we need a better outside shooter at the point guard position in this offense.

#3) Trade or FA? Somehow, upgrade at SF. In addition to a better shooting PG, this team really needs to add a better shooting wing. Gordon Hayward's (PO) really the main guy on the market who fits that bill. And he's going to get a max contract. So maybe he's not a realistic option. And I've yet to really fully, completely, research the upcoming FA market. But there always seem to be two or three solid-value 3 and D wings on the market each year. Having looked as far as I have.. Kyle Korver intrigues.

...So. I obviously don't know the details well enough. But if you can manage to move Reggie for expiring contracts (in a dream world, a nice 3-and-D wing). Sign a guy like Patty Mills. Maybe sign Korver.

C: Dre - - - Boban
PF: Tobias - - - Leuer, Ellenson
SF: Korver - - - Marcus
SG: KCP - - - Stanley, Gbinije
PG: Mills - - - Ish

That seems like it'd be a pretty nasty roster

[DBC10]

There's a trade thread, wouldn't it be better suited for that?

Also please no more of RJ and Dre as our futures, that's a hedge that isn't sustainable nor future proof.

[SamFlow]

Bottom line is we need someone that consistently score. We don't have anyone that is a big time threat.

Paul George would have been a guy at a heavy price.

That is what we need more than anything to allow the other pieces to fit.

Without a prime time scorer we won't be doing much any time soon.

[GSR121]

I agree with most of this.

#1. I don't think Drummond will ever be a superstar, it is just not in his personality. He is too passive and laid back to be that kind of a player. So either we need to accept that and build around him with his weaknesses in mind or trade him.

#2. Leur is a 4/5 not a three so I can't lump him in with Mook and Tobias. I agree on of those two need to be moved. Both have their flaws. Harris is a scorer and that is about it, no other aspect of his game stands out. Morris is a "jack of all trades" kind of guy, he is decent at everything but great at nothing. My choice of who to move would be Harris. He has the most value, but I don't see him as a starting 3/4 for us. Morris off the bench is fine and his contract is a ton easier to swallow as a bench guy.

#3. yes, soooo much yes!

#4. I agree. KCP is a inconsistent 3 and D guy. On most teams that guy is your sixth man no a starter. He is going to look for (and probably get) an max deal this off season. I do not think he is remotely worth it. I would rather trade him (he has a good deal of value) and get some pieces/draft picks and go after someone like Gordon Hayward (even at max).

#5. Here is where we disagree. I don't think Jackson's ego will let him change his game to a team oriented style of play like a pick and roll PG has to. He also is not a good enough 3pt shooter for that role. I think we should move him now before any (more?) locker room problems develop and his value tanks. His contract is too large for a player that is not fitting the system that "might" change into the player you need.

#6. Our assets to me, are Tobias, Jackson, Baynes, Johnson, KCP and Boban. The last thing we should do is trade draft picks. In the new NBA draft picks are the cheapest way to build. If we were in the situation of needing one or two guys to get us over the hump to being a championship team then yes, but we are a long way from that right now. Quite the opposite, I think we should try and pick up as many picks as we can and fill our holes that way. Our core is young and we can build slowly.

#7. yep I am with you here!

[pistontr]

am I the only one here who like drummond's ofensive game but hate defensive one?

[pistontr]

patty mills is free agent this year, sign him. trade reggie jackson for robert covington (espn says that he is aggressive, physical defender who can guard wings and bigs). sign serge ibaka and trade harris for a draft pick. don't pay kcp, we would find that talent in second round.

[El Chivo]

am I the only one here who like drummond's ofensive game but hate defensive one?

maybe you're blind. no jumper, can't convert a free throw to save his life, no reliable post-moves, mediocre passer, tunnel vision.

can dunk, like dozens of big men. can jump. wow.

[pistontr]

am I the only one here who like drummond's ofensive game but hate defensive one?

maybe you're blind. no jumper, can't convert a free throw to save his life, no reliable post-moves, mediocre passer, tunnel vision.

can dunk, like dozens of big men. can jump. wow.

I like his post moves. and he could be terror with a good pick and roll PG. will bynum throwed him 3 lobs per game as I remember.

but he is the worst starting defensvie center in the game. that's sure.

[El Chivo]

am I the only one here who like drummond's ofensive game but hate defensive one?

maybe you're blind. no jumper, can't convert a free throw to save his life, no reliable post-moves, mediocre passer, tunnel vision.

can dunk, like dozens of big men. can jump. wow.

I like his post moves.

[joedumars1]

maybe you're blind. no jumper, can't convert a free throw to save his life, no reliable post-moves, mediocre passer, tunnel vision.

can dunk, like dozens of big men. can jump. wow.

I like his post moves.

I'm almost positive this dude doesn't watch games. You can get KCP get in the 2nd round according to him.

I do like Dre's Offensive game. I hate that whenever he touches the ball more often than not he has to be the one that shoots it no matter if he has terrible position or not. If he had good position wouldn't mind, but sometimes just **** pass.

[El Chivo]

I like his post moves.

I'm almost positive this dude doesn't watch games. You can get KCP get in the 2nd round according to him.

I do like Dre's Offensive game. I hate that whenever he touches the ball more often than not he has to be the one that shoots it no matter if he has terrible position or not. If he had good position wouldn't mind, but sometimes just **** pass.

maybe he doesn't know that our last 3 2nd round picks were Dinwiddie, Hilliard and Gbinije.

[pistontr]

I like his post moves.

I'm almost positive this dude doesn't watch games. You can get KCP get in the 2nd round according to him.

I do like Dre's Offensive game. I hate that whenever he touches the ball more often than not he has to be the one that shoots it no matter if he has terrible position or not. If he had good position wouldn't mind, but sometimes just **** pass.

second round SGs who scores 10+ per game this season.

Louis Williams, Wesley Matthews, Sean Kilpatrick, Bojan Bogdanovic, Tyler Johnson, Josh Richardson, Troy Daniels, E'Twaun Moore, Allen Crabbe.

and there is danny green, better defender and shooter.

[joedumars1]

I'm almost positive this dude doesn't watch games. You can get KCP get in the 2nd round according to him.

I do like Dre's Offensive game. I hate that whenever he touches the ball more often than not he has to be the one that shoots it no matter if he has terrible position or not. If he had good position wouldn't mind, but sometimes just **** pass.

maybe he doesn't know that our last 3 2nd round picks were Dinwiddie, Hilliard and Gbinije.

Yeah not like them guys are shooting .387 from 3, averaging 3.1 assist, and 3.5 boards per game, not to mention 1.8 steals. At only 23. Sometime you have to admit you're wrong. I was way off on what I thought Pistons could do this year, I mean I guess it could turn around, but when they play D they can't hit **** and vice versa

[pistontr]

I'm almost positive this dude doesn't watch games. You can get KCP get in the 2nd round according to him.

I do like Dre's Offensive game. I hate that whenever he touches the ball more often than not he has to be the one that shoots it no matter if he has terrible position or not. If he had good position wouldn't mind, but sometimes just **** pass.

maybe he doesn't know that our last 3 2nd round picks were Dinwiddie, Hilliard and Gbinije.

Give Hilliard or Gbinije 30+ minutes, they can prudce what kcp does.

[El Chivo]

I'm almost positive this dude doesn't watch games. You can get KCP get in the 2nd round according to him.

I do like Dre's Offensive game. I hate that whenever he touches the ball more often than not he has to be the one that shoots it no matter if he has terrible position or not. If he had good position wouldn't mind, but sometimes just **** pass.

maybe he doesn't know that our last 3 2nd round picks were Dinwiddie, Hilliard and Gbinije.

Give Hilliard or Gbinije 30+ minutes, they can prudce what kcp does.

of course.

[MrBigShot]

Dre will never be a superstar. It has nothing to do w/ player development and everything to do with Dre's mentality. For him, basketball is simply a means to make friends, make a lot of money and achieve fame. He may enjoy it to an extent, but in the play pick up ball with your friends kind of way, not in a competitive way. Otherwise, he wouldn't have turned down underhanded FTs as an option twice even though his percentage is a laughing stock and he'd bring effort consistently instead of being a no-show in any given game.

Also, KCP's at around 39% from three. His shooting was an issue in the past but he's more than serviceable in that regard now.

I like his post moves. and he could be terror with a good pick and roll PG. will bynum throwed him 3 lobs per game as I remember.

but he is the worst starting defensvie center in the game. that's sure.

I think you meant to say post move, because the only thing he does in the post is turn and throw up a hook shot regardless of how far away he is from the basket.

[joedumars1]

I'm almost positive this dude doesn't watch games. You can get KCP get in the 2nd round according to him.

I do like Dre's Offensive game. I hate that whenever he touches the ball more often than not he has to be the one that shoots it no matter if he has terrible position or not. If he had good position wouldn't mind, but sometimes just **** pass.

second round SGs who scores 10+ per game this season.

Louis Williams, Wesley Matthews, Sean Kilpatrick, Bojan Bogdanovic, Tyler Johnson, Josh Richardson, Troy Daniels, E'Twaun Moore, Allen Crabbe.

and there is danny green, better defender and shooter.

30,30,26,27,24,23,25,27,24,29

Them are the ages of them guys how did they do at 23? Might take two of them over KCP not sure. Josh Richarsdon is shooting .321% from three on 5 per fame KCP .387 on 5. I'm guessing KCP stats are better than most of the guys that are 23-25 you named. Maybe the two 27 year olds and 26 year olds already at 23 too

[joedumars1]

Dre will never be a superstar. It has nothing to do w/ player development and everything to do with Dre's mentality. For him, basketball is simply a means to make friends, make a lot of money and achieve fame. He may enjoy it to an extent, but in the play pick up ball with your friends kind of way, not in a competitive way. Otherwise, he wouldn't have turned down underhanded FTs as an option twice even though his percentage is a laughing stock and he'd bring effort consistently instead of being a no-show in any given game.

Also, KCP's at around 39% from three. His shooting was an issue in the past but he's more than serviceable in that regard now.


I think you meant to say post move, because the only thing he does in the post is turn and throw up a hook shot regardless of how far away he is from the basket.

How many bad FT shooters have took Rick up on that offer tho? I know Dre was historically bad last year. Could still be this year? Has improved. I think if I was in his situation I would've took the help to see where it went. I think.

[nbafan341]

#1. Andre Drummond's offensive development has stopped. This guy needs to be a legit NBA superstar if we're ever going to win a championship. Not just a defending, rebounding big man. We need to get serious about developing this guy. We need to get him a really, really great big man coach. Patrick Ewing (who's worked with SVG in ORL) is currently an asst. coach in Charlotte. Hakeem's still floating around with some coaching interests. David Robinson's out there, busy. Shaq. Vlade. Who knows. Someone.

#2. I like Leur as one kind of a four. And I like Tobias or Marcus as another kind. I prefer Tobias to Marcus.. but it's close enough that I wouldn't care which moved. I don't like either as a 3. Because..

#3. We need a deadly shooter at the 3. And..

#4. We need a deadly shooter at the 2. KCP ain't one. Stanley ain't ever gonna be one.

#5. Reggie I still have hope for as a pick and roll PG.

#6. Tobias or Marcus... KCP... Stanley... Ellenson... Picks. That's the package we can put together in a trade for an elite wing. Hopefully PG13's still available. Melo wouldn't be horrible. Someone I'm not thinking of right now. We can rebuild bench depth later.

#7. Gotta find another sharp shooter who plays defense to occupy our other wing spot.

C: Drummond...Baynes/Boban
PF: Tobias or Marcus...Leur
SF: Trade/FA...Bullock
SG: Trade/FA
PG: Reggie...Ish

That's what's gotta happen. Need real-deal sharp-shooters at the 2 and 3. Ideally one who's a star.

How about demare carroll for tobias?
Carroll is a 10 ppg scorer in 25 mpg playing off the ball in toronto. Defensively hes above average but not lockdown and his 3pt is streaky at 36% this season.

[Finn McCool]

I'm going to put some comments inside your quote to give some feedback. hope you don't mind.

#1. Andre Drummond's offensive development has stopped. This guy needs to be a legit NBA superstar if we're ever going to win a championship. Not just a defending, rebounding big man. We need to get serious about developing this guy. We need to get him a really, really great big man coach. Patrick Ewing (who's worked with SVG in ORL) is currently an asst. coach in Charlotte. Hakeem's still floating around with some coaching interests. David Robinson's out there, busy. Shaq. Vlade. Who knows. Someone.
1A) As much of a critic I am of Andre, I have to disagree with your opinion on his development. There are parts of his game that he has elevated, most recently & notably at the FT line... even if it's just been marginally incremental. His issues this season seem to stem from a lack of effort, once again. The real question is: how do you motivate him after giving him undeserved millions, when not even the garnering of such faith in his abilities has given him much incentive to be more relentless?

#2. I like Leur as one kind of a four. And I like Tobias or Marcus as another kind. I prefer Tobias to Marcus.. but it's close enough that I wouldn't care which moved. I don't like either as a 3. Because..
2A) I would not be shocked if Harris was the one who is designated for trade. In fact, nothing SVG does surprises me. It may bother me, but does not surprise me. I still feel, and have for some time, that the Pistons need to improve camaraderie. I think a legitimate proposal would be to scrap 2 of the 3 immature starters. I've been chomping at the bit to get Drummond run out of town, but I would favor sending out RJ and Morris. While it may backfire, I would hope that taking away some of Andre's support group might enforce some stability. BUT, 2 of the 3 must go prior to next season, IMHO.

#3. We need a deadly shooter at the 3. And..
3A) Any suggestions?

#4. We need a deadly shooter at the 2. KCP ain't one. Stanley ain't ever gonna be one.
4A) There aren't very many SGs around the league who fill that requirement. I really like KCP... but I wouldn't pay him max. One might consider what a better defender at PG could do for the relief on his staunch minutes.


#5. Reggie I still have hope for as a pick and roll PG.
5A) I'm done with Reggie. I feel he's the biggest menace on the team.

#6. Tobias or Marcus... KCP... Stanley... Ellenson... Picks. That's the package we can put together in a trade for an elite wing. Hopefully PG13's still available. Melo wouldn't be horrible. Someone I'm not thinking of right now. We can rebuild bench depth later.

#7. Gotta find another sharp shooter who plays defense to occupy our other wing spot.

C: Drummond...Baynes/Boban
PF: Tobias or Marcus...Leur
SF: Trade/FA...Bullock
SG: Trade/FA
PG: Reggie...Ish

That's what's gotta happen. Need real-deal sharp-shooters at the 2 and 3. Ideally one who's a star.

I appreciate that you have given some consideration about the team... and I gave you an AND1 to show approval for your attempt at remedies. I thought the idea of the thread was useful. Now... could someone make a rest of the season W/L prediction thread?