Lawrence Frank/Joe D vs SVG DEJA VU ***with poll

[vic]

This team is in the exact same position as when it had Lawrence Frank

- control freak coach that never played at high level
- big muscle athletic combo guard trying to be sold as a point guard (stuckey), backed up by small energy off the bench (Bynum)
- instead of a small forward that plays pass-first to offset the weaknesses of the combo guard, a dribble iso-jump shot small forward that plays good defense but bogs down the offense (Tayshaun/Morris)
- a stubborn GM that thinks he has a formula different than the rest of the NBA


I'll say the same thing now I said back then. You need at least 1 pass first player with high iq on the court leading the team from the floor. The coach cannot be the leader on the floor, or you'll have the dumpster fire/ guys giving up/ tuning out that you have right now. You need a pass first player high iq floor leader either at the 1 or at the 3.

Stan van control freak laughs off any team attempt at leadership while he calls every play and yells nonstop
RJ is a score first combo guard.
Morris is an iso guy.
SJ is trying to be a utility pass first guy but control freak panic master coach doesn't like him.
Stubborn GM thinks Ricky Rubio or Elfrid Payton (pass first, defense, high iq, triple double threats) weren't good enough to trade for his big muscle combo guard because he has a special formula that will come together one day soon.

[ImHeisenberg]

Who's to blame? SVG the coach or SVG the president of team operations?

Either the coach can't design offensive and defensive schemes that work in the modern NBA, so SVG the coach is bad. Or, the team president can't acquire players with a high enough BBIQ to do anything more than these basic sets. In that case, SVG the team president is bad.

Either way, SVG is to blame for this team's performance. It was his ship to steer alone and in his vision, which is exactly what he wanted. He turned down the Golden State job because Gores gave him full autonomy in Detroit. SVG even whiffed on his own job scouting!

[Pharaoh]

Pretty sure Minny & Orlando didn't want RJ for Rubio & Payton dude so can't blame SVG for not getting them

As ImHeisenberg points out either SVG no longer can coach (doubtful) or our roster doesn't fit - been saying the latter for a while now

SVG has got to get a PG that is willing to give up the ball.

SVG has got to unleash SJ

SVG has got to get shooters on the roster.

Dre
Jon
SJ
KCP
?

Harris
Banging F/C
Shooter
Ish
King Henry
Bullock
Bobo

Means I left off RJ & Mook...

To the trade machine!

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[The Penguin]

I have a hard time coming down on Stan too much. He inherited a team that was trying to play Drummond / Monroe / Josh Smith together on a front line with Brandon Jennings as the primary play maker and he lost the 9th pick in the draft thanks to a stupid trade by Joe. He got Mook / Tobias / Reggie for nothing. We make a lot more sense now with more talent than the team he inherited.

I do see the primary failure as 1) we tricked ourselves into thinking a better bench was all that separated us from Cleveland and 2) we thought we would land Horford and had to scramble on a backup plan. I do think landing Horford would have dramatically changed everything, he would have been a respected voice in the locker room, would have allowed us to shift Tobias or Mook to the bench without too many hard feelings, would have been a positive vet voice in Dre's ear and would have allowed us to run some dramatically different lineups. I don't think Leuer is a bad piece, just not what Horford would have brought.

That being said, it's clear we aren't as close to a contending window as we thought 12 months ago. Reggie and Mook have to go, simply for the fact we need younger pieces that fit around Dre / Tobias / Stanley / KCP and we need to give Stanley a chance to sink or swim in an extended role. Honestly I think we'll struggle to move Reggie (almost every team in the league has a better option than him at PG, plus his contract, health and attitude are less than appealing) and I think we'll run back the same team with plenty of stories about "guys realizing mistakes" and team generated kumbaya BS for the new arena. I look for the potential big blowup to happen at next years deadline, no way we walk into the new arena having traded away Drummond for draft picks and putting what looks like a sure fire lottery team on the floor.

[Kilo]

Dre is bitchmade. Stan chose us because of Dre IIRC. Also didn't Stan almost go to the Warriors? So he chose Detroit and Dre/Moose/Smith over Curry/Klay/Dray - proof positive he is out of touch with the current NBA trends.

[MotownMadness]

His players seem to have quit in him. Whether that's our players being immature and needing to be more professional or SVG being a annoying control freak IDK. Solution, get rid of them all and get me some good draft picks lol.

[Canadafan]

Pretty sure Minny & Orlando didn't want RJ for Rubio & Payton dude so can't blame SVG for not getting them

As ImHeisenberg points out either SVG no longer can coach (doubtful) or our roster doesn't fit - been saying the latter for a while now

SVG has got to get a PG that is willing to give up the ball.

SVG has got to unleash SJ

SVG has got to get shooters on the roster.

Dre
Jon
SJ
KCP
?

Harris
Banging F/C
Shooter
Ish
King Henry
Bullock
Bobo

Means I left off RJ & Mook...

To the trade machine!

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I find myself constantly agreeing with you haha. Except for Jon. He's a good off the bench PF/sometimes stretch 5. We really could use a banger PF in our starting lineup. It's so sad to be a Pistons fan this morning lol

[vic]

I have a hard time coming down on Stan too much. He inherited a team that was trying to play Drummond / Monroe / Josh Smith together on a front line with Brandon Jennings as the primary play maker and he lost the 9th pick in the draft thanks to a stupid trade by Joe. He got Mook / Tobias / Reggie for nothing. We make a lot more sense now with more talent than the team he inherited.

I do see the primary failure as 1) we tricked ourselves into thinking a better bench was all that separated us from Cleveland and 2) we thought we would land Horford and had to scramble on a backup plan. I do think landing Horford would have dramatically changed everything, he would have been a respected voice in the locker room, would have allowed us to shift Tobias or Mook to the bench without too many hard feelings, would have been a positive vet voice in Dre's ear and would have allowed us to run some dramatically different lineups. I don't think Leuer is a bad piece, just not what Horford would have brought.

That being said, it's clear we aren't as close to a contending window as we thought 12 months ago. Reggie and Mook have to go, simply for the fact we need younger pieces that fit around Dre / Tobias / Stanley / KCP and we need to give Stanley a chance to sink or swim in an extended role. Honestly I think we'll struggle to move Reggie (almost every team in the league has a better option than him at PG, plus his contract, health and attitude are less than appealing) and I think we'll run back the same team with plenty of stories about "guys realizing mistakes" and team generated kumbaya BS for the new arena. I look for the potential big blowup to happen at next years deadline, no way we walk into the new arena having traded away Drummond for draft picks and putting what looks like a sure fire lottery team on the floor.

It's absolutely square on SVG.
Jennings had 18&9 last night
Booker had 70 while Stanley's rotting
Moose is hitting game winners
All last night.

SVG the coach is a control freak and panic master destined to lose the team.
SVG the GM is stubborn and is hardheaded and will wait until complete failure and rock bottom to make a decision to change.

One of them has to have a change of heart or the other has to be changed out!

[vic]

I'm tired of hearing this mess about how "all the players have no heart" as if it's all their fault and they just have to go. Somebody stirring the pot is making stupid decisions, somebody is trapping them in positions to fail, and his name is Stan Van Gundy.

Who decided to keep Drummond posting up?
Who keeps telling Morris to iso?
Who is calling every single solitary play?
Who decided that Rubio or Payton wasn't worth RJ?
Who decided RJ was going to be a team leader after being a cancer in his previous team?
Whose treating SJ like a bad dog on a chain?

[vic]

There are two decisions SVG needs to make this summer:
1. Give the team over to a new starting pg. Rubio/Bledsoe/Payton/Nlitkina/Clarkson/Russell, anyone with an IQ that he will give the reins of the team over to.
2. Go all in on Stanley at the 3 and let him develop as a starter, give him control of the 3 position and let him be a pass first defense next utility small forward and develop his scoring at his own pace. Cut his leash off.

If he doesn't do this I most likely won't be paying too much attention next year. I'm tired of square peg round hole basketball and combo guard teambuilding. It's only been 10 years of this mess.

[afroxnas]

Van Gundy the coach is not the problem imo. He is widely recognized as one of the good coaches in the league. When guys were sufficiently engaged we had a top 10 defense, even with terrible individual defenders like Andre and RJ.
The problem is that our roster is just horribly constructed, and that's on Stan van Bower the GM. We're number 28th in the league in 3 points made/100 possessions and number 29 on FT attempts.Those are the 2 most efficient shots in basketball. We cannot shoot, and with this version of RJ, there's no one capable of getting to the line, so our offense is going to suck no matter what the coach does.
So blow it up, get rid of Dre and RJ for whatever we can get. The the only lineups I can force myself to watch nowadays are with Ish and Baynes in there instead of these two suckers anyway. I truly believe it will be addition by subtraction and we will at least be heading somewhere. This is just fan torture

[flow]

I thought Frank got a bit of the shaft. I would have liked to have seen him get another year.

[Spider156]

Dre is bitchmade. Stan chose us because of Dre IIRC. Also didn't Stan almost go to the Warriors? So he chose Detroit and Dre/Moose/Smith over Curry/Klay/Dray - proof positive he is out of touch with the current NBA trends.

He chose Detroit cuz he became the president and protected his job

[Spider156]

To me the answer is pretty simple guys:

Bench Reggie Jackson

That's right it's not an easy solution knowing his attitude. But that is the solution really. Otherwise we're gonna have to send him as a salary dump which shouldn't be too tough. His contract isn't bad, two years are off now there's 2 years left. That's easy to pay

[dVs33]

The team lacks a leader on Court. There's too many followers and our old leader refuses to play in a way that could make us successful, so we're screwed.
I still don't think SVG is solely to blame. He brought guys in thinking they wanted to win as a team. He needs to look at who still does and get rid of the rest.

[afroxnas]

Van Gundy the coach is not the problem imo. He is widely recognized as one of the good coaches in the league. When guys were sufficiently engaged we had a top 10 defense, even with terrible individual defenders like Andre and RJ.
The problem is that our roster is just horribly constructed, and that's on Stan van Bower the GM. We're number 28th in the league in 3 points made/100 possessions and number 29 on FT attempts.Those are the 2 most efficient shots in basketball. We cannot shoot, and with this version of RJ, there's no one capable of getting to the line, so our offense is going to suck no matter what the coach does.
So blow it up, get rid of Dre and RJ for whatever we can get. The the only lineups I can force myself to watch nowadays are with Ish and Baynes in there instead of these two suckers anyway. I truly believe it will be addition by subtraction and we will at least be heading somewhere. This is just fan torture

Ellis puts it more eloquently
http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2017/03/25/detroit-pistons-stan-van-gundy/99602828/

[Pharaoh]

The solution isn't as simple as guys improving from 3 though.

We've lacked creators for a long time, lacked shooters for a long time...the problems we see now offensively aren't new.

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[afroxnas]

The solution isn't as simple as guys improving from 3 though.

We've lacked creators for a long time, lacked shooters for a long time...the problems we see now offensively aren't new.

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We are dead last in the league in wide open 3 point percentage per NBA.com. Dead last. There not much SVG can do about that except shooting them himself or trade for better shooting. Improving on that would have major cascading effects on spacing and on the rest of the team offense.

[Pharaoh]

The solution isn't as simple as guys improving from 3 though.

We've lacked creators for a long time, lacked shooters for a long time...the problems we see now offensively aren't new.

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We are dead last in the league in wide open 3 point percentage per NBA.com. Dead last. There not much SVG can do about that except shooting them himself or trade for better shooting. Improving on that would have major cascading effects on spacing and on the rest of the team offense.

True to a certain extent but if we don't have dudes that can create off the bounce then we're just gonna live and die by the 3

The entire offensive system needs an overhaul both on and off the floor

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[russkopp]

I agree that we need better shooting and playmaking but you can't forget the Detroit effect. Across all 4 sports, once a player comes here he almost immediately regresses. It's crazy. Miguel Cabrera may be the only exception but he's a generational talent.

Anyway, my point is even if we had money for a 3 point specialist, everyone's shot seems to die in SVGs offense. I think a quicker PG may be the way to go to open up the floor.

And about points in the paint...if someone knows of a "posterizing" or "dunk in traffic" stat, we have to be dead last. Our players hate contact, aren't the best jumpers and overall attempt ballerina like moves at the rim.

Summary - I think we're in trouble.