Wait for 2021 or swing for the fences?

[Snakebites]

Heh. My position is more popular than I thought. I guess the swing for the fences folks either didn't vote or are just more vocal than the rest.

Silent majority FTW.

[Manocad]

There is no all in move, literally none no matter how many assets/picks are offered up, that will win this team a championship. Not Westbrook, not anyone who is available. With Westbrook you’d have to have Blake and Dre, meaning the team would have almost nothing else. Swap out Blake for Westbrook? Clearly not good enough. Not to mention that Westbrook has four years left on his contract so he’s not exactly a “If he doesn’t pan out well here after a season, no biggie” kind of option.

As has been said before ad nauseam, this team put itself into a hole that there is no quick fix for, period. So you either hope they clear everything out (ie the current veterans) and try again in a couple of years, or go for what you hope will be “more entertaining” basketball now knowing there will not be a championship until after everyone is cleared out.

I see it as basically starting over in 1-2 years vs 3-4.

If Drummond expires in 2 years and Blake opts out in 2 years, how does a move for Westbrook prevent the "start over in 2 years" concept? You think it's realistic to only have 2 rookie contracts on the books and over $100 million in capspace in an offseason? If you think that's the plan, and if that IS the plan then that'd be downright unprecedented and I'd be for that just outta morbid curiosity.


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I don’t think it’s crazy to not be too wild about starting a rebuild with a 32 year old player making $40+ million for the next two years.

[Manocad]

And yes, I’ve already said that if a deal for Blake which approaches fair value in picks/young players was offered, I’d take it in a heartbeat. I’m all for starting a rebuild as soon as possible. Keep what you know you want for the future (Kennard, Brown, players just drafted, picks), develop them over the next two years before Dre and Blake are able to come off the books, and if a decent deal for either Blake or Dre comes along in the meantime, take it. I’m totally ok with watching a 25-30 win team full of young players who lose because they’re learning, inexperienced and just outmatched. What I hate watching is a 25-30 win team that someone spent on like it was going to be a 55 win/conference finals team.

[Canadafan]

Heh. My position is more popular than I thought. I guess the swing for the fences folks either didn't vote or are just more vocal than the rest.

Silent majority FTW.

I feel like the options have skewed this to the rebuild crowd lol
Not too many want to trade for Westbrook by giving up Sekou or Luke or a ton of draft picks. But lots I bet would give up expirings and maybe a 1st

[Snakebites]

Heh. My position is more popular than I thought. I guess the swing for the fences folks either didn't vote or are just more vocal than the rest.

Silent majority FTW.

I feel like the options have skewed this to the rebuild crowd lol

Probably so. Needed more choices.

[DBC10]

Heh. My position is more popular than I thought. I guess the swing for the fences folks either didn't vote or are just more vocal than the rest.

Silent majority FTW.

I feel like the options have skewed this to the rebuild crowd lol
Not too many want to trade for Westbrook by giving up Sekou or Luke or a ton of draft picks. But lots I bet would give up expirings and maybe a 1st

If it's just expirings then sign me up, but if it's expirings and a protect 1st, you can convince me that's a good idea.

But then, locking ourselves into Westbrook for 3 more years at 43+ million with the last year being 47, is crippling for that year. And he's not exactly inspiring confidence that he can rehab his percentages with his sheer ball dominance going 42/29/65 in 2018. Even his once capable midrange has been failing him repeatedly.

The fact that we're even in the convo for Russ seems like that spells doom for Blake being traded elsewhere for some assets? I would've thought one of HOU, POR, DEN, and NYK would've came calling since they all need a PF. But then all of them signed PFs with their money or trades.

[zeebneeb]

Swing away merril, swing away.

[DetroitSho]

There is no all in move, literally none no matter how many assets/picks are offered up, that will win this team a championship. Not Westbrook, not anyone who is available. With Westbrook you’d have to have Blake and Dre, meaning the team would have almost nothing else. Swap out Blake for Westbrook? Clearly not good enough. Not to mention that Westbrook has four years left on his contract so he’s not exactly a “If he doesn’t pan out well here after a season, no biggie” kind of option.

As has been said before ad nauseam, this team put itself into a hole that there is no quick fix for, period. So you either hope they clear everything out (ie the current veterans) and try again in a couple of years, or go for what you hope will be “more entertaining” basketball now knowing there will not be a championship until after everyone is cleared out.

I see it as basically starting over in 1-2 years vs 3-4.

If Drummond expires in 2 years and Blake opts out in 2 years, how does a move for Westbrook prevent the "start over in 2 years" concept? You think it's realistic to only have 2 rookie contracts on the books and over $100 million in capspace in an offseason? If you think that's the plan, and if that IS the plan then that'd be downright unprecedented and I'd be for that just outta morbid curiosity.


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I don’t think it’s crazy to not be too wild about starting a rebuild with a 32 year old player making $40+ million for the next two years.

Good job not actually answering the question bud.

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[mattao313]

I voted go all in whats the point in staying put with a team that barley made to playoffs? Rebuild in 2 years why not just start now? It doesnt make sense. Go all in and try and get Westbrook what are the chances Detroit can have a top ten and top 15 player on the roster at the same time? The draft is not a sure thing we could rebiuld the "right way" and still end up crappy.

[Pharaoh]

Going All in for a team that can't win a championship is the definition of what stupid teams do.
Team that are stupid also tend to be the teams that don't have a culture that can make players fit better and play together better than their previous teams.

Which comes first?
I'd rather develop a culture of proven improvement, square pegs in square holes, round pegs in round holes, player playing their roles, young players improving, etc.
Throwing money at big names when your culture hasn't been proven is just dumb.

Miami has a proven overacheiving culture of player fit and improvement.
Clippers do to, that why they got PG and Kawhi.
Toronto does too, that's why they just won a championship.

The Pistons haven't proven that they can do anything except trade the future for big names that are past their prime.
-Allen Iverson all over again.
-Tracy McGrady farewell tour.
-Chris Webber farewell tour.
-Blake Griffin (great player, but done by the time the playoffs started, just as expected).
-Derrick Rose shell of his former self
-Now lets get excited about RWB after his athleticism deteriorates, and all the MVP level players have learned he's not worth playing with. With an albatross contract.

dumb dumb dumb. why do it?

Miami hasn't done much since the Big 3 split up so their proven culture is a few years old

Clips have been the worst run franchise in the NBA until the slum lord got caught in a sting and the league itself got involved.

Toronto has a proven culture? Up until Kawhi they were known as playoff chokers, a regular season team!

People forget quickly

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[Snakebites]

Going All in for a team that can't win a championship is the definition of what stupid teams do.
Team that are stupid also tend to be the teams that don't have a culture that can make players fit better and play together better than their previous teams.

Which comes first?
I'd rather develop a culture of proven improvement, square pegs in square holes, round pegs in round holes, player playing their roles, young players improving, etc.
Throwing money at big names when your culture hasn't been proven is just dumb.

Miami has a proven overacheiving culture of player fit and improvement.
Clippers do to, that why they got PG and Kawhi.
Toronto does too, that's why they just won a championship.

The Pistons haven't proven that they can do anything except trade the future for big names that are past their prime.
-Allen Iverson all over again.
-Tracy McGrady farewell tour.
-Chris Webber farewell tour.
-Blake Griffin (great player, but done by the time the playoffs started, just as expected).
-Derrick Rose shell of his former self
-Now lets get excited about RWB after his athleticism deteriorates, and all the MVP level players have learned he's not worth playing with. With an albatross contract.

dumb dumb dumb. why do it?

Miami hasn't done much since the Big 3 split up so their proven culture is a few years old

Clips have been the worst run franchise in the NBA until the slum lord got caught in a sting and the league itself got involved.

Toronto has a proven culture? Up until Kawhi they were known as playoff chokers, a regular season team!

People forget quickly

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Pat Riley is the Heat culture.

[Pharaoh]

And what have they done that's relevant since Lebron bailed?

Perception is they're this great organisation: over the last 3 to 5 years what have they done?

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[Manocad]

If Drummond expires in 2 years and Blake opts out in 2 years, how does a move for Westbrook prevent the "start over in 2 years" concept? You think it's realistic to only have 2 rookie contracts on the books and over $100 million in capspace in an offseason? If you think that's the plan, and if that IS the plan then that'd be downright unprecedented and I'd be for that just outta morbid curiosity.


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I don’t think it’s crazy to not be too wild about starting a rebuild with a 32 year old player making $40+ million for the next two years.

Good job not actually answering the question bud.

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I did answer the question. In no way did I ever imply that the team should do nothing for the next two years but let contracts fall off the books. Certainly moves can be made in the interest of developing the team between now and then. I just wouldn't want to have two years of 32 year old Westbrook left at $40-something million a year to deal with. That's a lot of team development potential buried if he turns into the NBA's version of Miguel Cabrera.

If you think it's better for the team rebuilding plan to have two years and $90 million left owed to a washed up player rather than have it available for spending on other younger players that's certainly your right. I just don't share that opinion.

[A_dub06]

We don’t know what the team is planning for the clean slate, but I definitely see that as a likely rebuild sDrummond will probably opt out, and who really knows if Blake wants to stay here. If they both leave, I think rebuilding will seem likely as there won’t be any big names with us to make us seem constantly trying to re-tool is really a viable option.

So what do people really think is the plan? Spend the next 2 years chasing the 7th and 8th seed and then start tanking afterwards? That's dumb af. If that's really what was going to happen they would just do it now. But it's not.

You might as well be bold with and give a 2 year shot with Westbrook (or Conley previously). Because in 2 years both Drummond and Blake's salary could be off the books. So having Westbrook, Sekou (and/or Kennard) and $60 million in cap space in 2021 won't stop the ability to rebuild. They can still take bad contracts for draft picks. Since Westbrook's athleticism or lack thereof in 2 years will inevitably keep him from being a difference maker at 33 (as per Pistons RealGM) having him on the roster with a bunch of scrubs we traded for to gather picks won't keep us from the lottery, so we'll have our own lottery picks with the ability to add others'. So as long as we're not mortgaging the future I don't see how going the Westbrook route hinders whatever tf 2021 is supposed to be.

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I think gaining cap flexibility is important when considering a rebuild because it allows the team to take unwanted players in exchange for draft picks, whether that’s part of a trade between two teams or getting in on a 3 team deal. I’m on record saying that if we can trade for RW without giving up picks, Kennard or Sekou I wouldn’t be entirely against it but I’m not for it either. Getting RW would also has a detrimental effect on our draft standing for the next 3 years as it would mean that we would draft even lower, and when looking through the injuries prism, it’s easy to see a scenario where Blake misses numerous games which without RW would mean that we would be a bottom feeding team leading to much better draft picks. It essentially raises our floor much more than it raises our ceiling imo. I also don’t think that RW is someone you want on the team if you are trying to develop younger players due to his bone headed selfish playing style and we would be forced into playing everything through him or risk him destroying the locker room and team. He’s not going to be happy here if we aren’t competing in the East, and taking him on is a risk as he will demand a trade if unhappy which could force our hand to take back an unfavourable deal and most likely worse than what we would have given up to acquire him. I would see that as mortgaging the future in a different way.

It’s eays to say that we can’t draft or develop talent and there’s no reason to try and build through the draft, but if that’s your honest belief then what’s even the point the Pistons being in the NBA? Teams do change, and at some point the front office and Gores himself will need to look at the themselves and consider drastic changes to fix what’s been broken with this team for so long. As I’ve said previously, the front office seems to have some plan only taking on 2 year deals refusing to take on longer term contacts so something is cooking, and with the fact Dre and Griffin will be coming off the books one has to think that we won’t be able to replace those players with other big names, and to Gores and Ed if we can’t win with those guys we definitely won’t be able to win with lesser talented smaller name players which leads me to be cautiously optimistic of this meaning we will tear it down.

[Pharaoh]

I'm all for Westbrook (& Adams) if we give Dre, RJ, Snell & Galloway & a pick.

No go if we give Sekou &/or Luke.

Upgrade PG & maybe even at C, remove roadblocks for our kids. Yep, I'm on that

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[edmunder_prc]

Charlotte is a good example of what BAD teams do. Or Miami. Or Pistons.

For Hornets: Keep Kemba and try to squeak out some passable teams. Overpay guys who are just above average. Have a whole roster of poor to very bad, longer contracts. No one wants them. No cap space to absorb players. Nothing.

Then the team is stuck into years of terrible play.

The other side would be Denver, Jazz, Nets, Hawks.

Someone just got Grant from OKC for nothing.

Build slowly. Draft guys with upside and try to develop them, along with 2-3 year free agents with upside.

If you looked at the Nets two years ago they didn't have anything going because the process just started.

For the Pistons the process is just starting. Draft guys like Doumbouya every year. In 3-4 years that pipeline is paying dividends. In year one people are yelling that its not working when it wasnt designed to work.

Look at Svi, Brown, Khyri. These guys can play and should be in the rotation but Galloway is in the way. Leur would block Doumbouya if he were here.

Patience is a virtue.

See where the team is by the deadline.
Trade a reggie to a team with an injured point guard. Or looking for cap space. Or both.

Look where Drummond can go. Small steps that make the team better.

[MotownMadness]

Charlotte is a good example of what BAD teams do. Or Miami. Or Pistons.

For Hornets: Keep Kemba and try to squeak out some passable teams. Overpay guys who are just above average. Have a whole roster of poor to very bad, longer contracts. No one wants them. No cap space to absorb players. Nothing.

Then the team is stuck into years of terrible play.

The other side would be Denver, Jazz, Nets, Hawks.

Someone just got Grant from OKC for nothing.

Build slowly. Draft guys with upside and try to develop them, along with 2-3 year free agents with upside.

If you looked at the Nets two years ago they didn't have anything going because the process just started.

For the Pistons the process is just starting. Draft guys like Doumbouya every year. In 3-4 years that pipeline is paying dividends. In year one people are yelling that its not working when it wasnt designed to work.

Look at Svi, Brown, Khyri. These guys can play and should be in the rotation but Galloway is in the way. Leur would block Doumbouya if he were here.

Patience is a virtue.

See where the team is by the deadline.
Trade a reggie to a team with an injured point guard. Or looking for cap space. Or both.

Look where Drummond can go. Small steps that make the team better.

Then just sign Kyrie and Durant and were good to go.

[MotownMadness]

And what have they done that's relevant since Lebron bailed?

Perception is they're this great organisation: over the last 3 to 5 years what have they done?

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Gave out horrible contracts and traded multiple 1st rounders for Dragic

[edmunder_prc]

Blah blah sign superstars. Great.

Did the Jazz sign superstars?

They drafted well. Signed guys like Ingles with upside. The draft picks got better. The upside 2-3 year mid level signings got better.

THEN, They swung for the fences.

What about Denver, did they sign superstars? Portland? Boston with IT looked great and actually seems in a worse spot after going for Kyrie/Horford/Hayward.


Its just lazily and no patience.

Good to great teams are built all the time.

The Raptors drafted well, developed those guys, signed mid level guys with upside, traded for other teams recent draft picks that wanted to get good quick. They built an excellent team that played well for 5 years. THEN swung for the fences.

You cant put the cart before the horse. Build for 3-4 years. See what’s available. Then swing.

[DBC10]

Is it weird that I actually want WB for the Heat? When there's a good Heat team, I think it balances out the NBA pendulum swing a bit, since it offers most of the nightlife and good weather/beach that LA and California teams do.

The West looks even more stacked than usual.