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Trade for DeMar DeRozan...

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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#21 » by Manocad » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:09 am

DetroitPistons wrote:
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thesack12 wrote:Very expensive, Bad defender, and no range on his shot. Yup, sounds just like the kind of guy Detroit should be trading away assets for.

Sometimes you have to take the biggest of risks!


Way to take my post completely out of context yet again, but hey, I'm not surprised with you. That's what you do because you don't have the logic to actually handle a point accurately. I never said trading for DeRozan was the biggest of risks. I said TOR trading DeRozan, their best player, for 1 year rental was the biggest of risks because you are giving up your best player for hope that Leonard resigns with you or left with nothing going forward. Now instead of TOR being the best team in the East for the next few years, they will be retooling dramatically or tearing it down to rebuild.

The post I quoted quite aptly addressed your point. This is not the time to go into panic mode and just grab anyone who might be available because said player might make the team marginally better. Let that Westbrook fever pass.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#22 » by Invictus88 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:09 am

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Snakebites wrote:Yeah we’re not going to keep him, he’s a rental.

Dubious fit with the bigs too. I think I’d like it if a big was being shipped out somehow. Depends of course on the particulars of the trade though.


Casey and DeRozan love each other and if we have good success with him I think we would have a very strong chance of keeping him. I don't see how anyone can just assume he is a rental.


If this is actually the case then I'd rather just wait until the offseason and try to sign him outright; using whatever expirings we need to offload to make it workfinancially for other assets instead.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#23 » by Pharaoh » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:15 am

DetroitPistons wrote:
Manocad wrote:
thesack12 wrote:Very expensive, Bad defender, and no range on his shot. Yup, sounds just like the kind of guy Detroit should be trading away assets for.

Sometimes you have to take the biggest of risks!


Way to take my post completely out of context yet again, but hey, I'm not surprised with you. That's what you do because you don't have the logic to actually handle a point accurately. I never said trading for DeRozan was the biggest of risks. I said TOR trading DeRozan, their best player, for 1 year rental was the biggest of risks because you are giving up your best player for hope that Leonard resigns with you or left with nothing going forward. Now instead of TOR being the best team in the East for the next few years, they will be retooling dramatically or tearing it down to rebuild.
Toronto trading DeRozan for Kawhi wasn't that big of a risk though.

Had they kept DeMar they likely get bounced by Philly in the 2nd round, run it back this season with a similar conclusion and hope he opts out.

Marc, Ibaka & Lowry to all expire at the same time - you think that's a coincidence?

Toronto were always going to rebuild.

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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#24 » by DetroitPistons » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:16 am

Invictus88 wrote:
DetroitPistons wrote:
Snakebites wrote:Yeah we’re not going to keep him, he’s a rental.

Dubious fit with the bigs too. I think I’d like it if a big was being shipped out somehow. Depends of course on the particulars of the trade though.


Casey and DeRozan love each other and if we have good success with him I think we would have a very strong chance of keeping him. I don't see how anyone can just assume he is a rental.


If this is actually the case then I'd rather just wait until the offseason and try to sign him outright; using whatever expirings we need to offload to make it workfinancially for other assets instead.


I don't think we will have the capspace. Also, I think if we trade for him it gives us a much higher chance of resigning him if he's already here. Of course, it depends on the assets involved too so I get your point. I don't want to waste another year of Griffin though either when we can already take a jump forward now and start building before the season starts.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#25 » by Pharaoh » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:18 am

DetroitPistons wrote:
Snakebites wrote:Yeah we’re not going to keep him, he’s a rental.

Dubious fit with the bigs too. I think I’d like it if a big was being shipped out somehow. Depends of course on the particulars of the trade though.


Casey and DeRozan love each other and if we have good success with him I think we would have a very strong chance of keeping him. I don't see how anyone can just assume he is a rental.
IF we have good success with him?

Define good success? First round exit ain't it

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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#26 » by DetroitPistons » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:20 am

Pharaoh wrote:Toronto trading DeRozan for Kawhi wasn't that big of a risk though.

Had they kept DeMar they likely get bounced by Philly in the 2nd round, run it back this season with a similar conclusion and hope he opts out.

Marc, Ibaka & Lowry to all expire at the same time - you think that's a coincidence?

Toronto were always going to rebuild.


The Gasol trade was after the Leonard trade so his contract couldn't have been part of that plan. Also, I don't think its safe at all to assume they were going to rebuild just because Lowry and Ibaka expire at the same time. They were consistently at the top of the East and would most likely be trying to use their assets to add another big piece if Leonard didn't fall into their lap as an option. I don't think you can even make the case they will try to rebuild right now. I could definitely see them trying to retool and keep winning.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#27 » by Pharaoh » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:29 am

Rebuild/retool is the same thing.

DeRozan opt out, Lowry & Ibaka expiring at the same time, JV was expiring...

That's why going for it with Kawhi didn't matter!

If he plays 10 games they rebuild/retool.

If he plays well and stays that's cool - you stay the course.

If he plays well and leaves? They'll rebuild/retool while trying to stay a "competitive" team.

Traditionally they've been a 50 win team that falls in the playoffs. Ain't nothing wrong with that

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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#28 » by goin2work04 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:44 am

DetroitPistons wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:
DetroitPistons wrote:
Casey and DeRozan love each other and if we have good success with him I think we would have a very strong chance of keeping him. I don't see how anyone can just assume he is a rental.


If this is actually the case then I'd rather just wait until the offseason and try to sign him outright; using whatever expirings we need to offload to make it workfinancially for other assets instead.


I don't think we will have the capspace. Also, I think if we trade for him it gives us a much higher chance of resigning him if he's already here. Of course, it depends on the assets involved too so I get your point. I don't want to waste another year of Griffin though either when we can already take a jump forward now and start building before the season starts.


You really want to build an expensive wrong side of 30 team that won't win anything of significance don't you?
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#29 » by DetroitPistons » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:58 am

Pharaoh wrote:Rebuild/retool is the same thing.

DeRozan opt out, Lowry & Ibaka expiring at the same time, JV was expiring...

That's why going for it with Kawhi didn't matter!

If he plays 10 games they rebuild/retool.

If he plays well and stays that's cool - you stay the course.

If he plays well and leaves? They'll rebuild/retool while trying to stay a "competitive" team.

Traditionally they've been a 50 win team that falls in the playoffs. Ain't nothing wrong with that

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Bruh retooling and rebuilding are definitely not the same thing. Retooling is when you make a some moves to change things up while still keeping a core together and trying to win. Rebuilding is when you trade your aging players for picks, tank, and try to develop young players and future draft picks. For example, OKC right now is rebuilding. HOU right now is retooling by swapping Paul for Westbrook.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#30 » by DetroitPistons » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:02 am

goin2work04 wrote:
You really want to build an expensive wrong side of 30 team that won't win anything of significance don't you?


Not necessarily. I've stated many times I'm open to rebuilding and trading Griffin to do that. It's just that I am also open to trying to bring in win now players if that is the path our organization decides to go. The problem is that every time I, or any other poster, even suggests trading for a win now piece the militant vitriolic doom and gloom crowd comes out of the wood works, ridicules anyone they disagree with, and then suggests stupid trades where we dump Griffin or Drummond for a bag of chips.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#31 » by Manocad » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:03 am

DetroitPistons wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:Rebuild/retool is the same thing.

DeRozan opt out, Lowry & Ibaka expiring at the same time, JV was expiring...

That's why going for it with Kawhi didn't matter!

If he plays 10 games they rebuild/retool.

If he plays well and stays that's cool - you stay the course.

If he plays well and leaves? They'll rebuild/retool while trying to stay a "competitive" team.

Traditionally they've been a 50 win team that falls in the playoffs. Ain't nothing wrong with that

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Bruh retooling and rebuilding are definitely not the same thing. Retooling is when you make a some moves to change things up while still keeping a core together and trying to win. Rebuilding is when you trade your aging players for picks, tank, and try to develop young players and future draft picks. For example, OKC right now is rebuilding. HOU right now is retooling by swapping Paul for Westbrook.

Tanking is not rebuilding. Tanking is trying to lose each game--sitting starters or playing them reduced minutes when they should be on the floor. Rebuilding is literally building a new team knowing the team will lose games even when all the best players are on the floor when they should be.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#32 » by Manocad » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:19 am

DetroitPistons wrote:
goin2work04 wrote:
You really want to build an expensive wrong side of 30 team that won't win anything of significance don't you?


Not necessarily. I've stated many times I'm open to rebuilding and trading Griffin to do that. It's just that I am also open to trying to bring in win now players if that is the path our organization decides to go. The problem is that every time I, or any other poster, even suggests trading for a win now piece the militant vitriolic doom and gloom crowd comes out of the wood works, ridicules anyone they disagree with, and then suggests stupid trades where we dump Griffin or Drummond for a bag of chips.

I feel you.

It's like when I or any other poster suggests that the team take a breath, not jump on every hot take that comes along and instead spend a couple/few years drafting/developing some players while trading/signing free agents to fill the gaps, the ADHD unicorn-chasing crowd comes out of the woodwork, ridicules everyone they disagree with, and suggests that there really is a pot of gold available if we'd just trade for the rainbow.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#33 » by DetroitPistons » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:22 am

Manocad wrote:
DetroitPistons wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:Rebuild/retool is the same thing.

DeRozan opt out, Lowry & Ibaka expiring at the same time, JV was expiring...

That's why going for it with Kawhi didn't matter!

If he plays 10 games they rebuild/retool.

If he plays well and stays that's cool - you stay the course.

If he plays well and leaves? They'll rebuild/retool while trying to stay a "competitive" team.

Traditionally they've been a 50 win team that falls in the playoffs. Ain't nothing wrong with that

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Bruh retooling and rebuilding are definitely not the same thing. Retooling is when you make a some moves to change things up while still keeping a core together and trying to win. Rebuilding is when you trade your aging players for picks, tank, and try to develop young players and future draft picks. For example, OKC right now is rebuilding. HOU right now is retooling by swapping Paul for Westbrook.

Tanking is not rebuilding. Tanking is trying to lose each game--sitting starters or playing them reduced minutes when they should be on the floor. Rebuilding is literally building a new team knowing the team will lose games even when all the best players are on the floor when they should be.


My goodness dude, you are the king of missing the point and starting debates out of NOTHING. Rebuilding teams usually tank for at least a year or two. That's the point. End of discussion.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#34 » by Manocad » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:27 am

DetroitPistons wrote:
Manocad wrote:
DetroitPistons wrote:
Bruh retooling and rebuilding are definitely not the same thing. Retooling is when you make a some moves to change things up while still keeping a core together and trying to win. Rebuilding is when you trade your aging players for picks, tank, and try to develop young players and future draft picks. For example, OKC right now is rebuilding. HOU right now is retooling by swapping Paul for Westbrook.

Tanking is not rebuilding. Tanking is trying to lose each game--sitting starters or playing them reduced minutes when they should be on the floor. Rebuilding is literally building a new team knowing the team will lose games even when all the best players are on the floor when they should be.


My goodness dude, you are the king of missing the point and starting debates out of NOTHING. Rebuilding teams usually tank for at least a year or two. That's the point. End of discussion.

My goodness dude, you are the king of not knowing the definition of words. Tanking is literally TRYING TO LOSE GAMES, meaning you take specific action DURING THE GAMES to lose them. That's not the same as not signing players to intentionally make sure you never have a lousy record. No ifs, ands or buts. That's what tanking is, and it very rarely happens. Not debatable.

What you want to do is make sure the team never has a lousy record. Doing the opposite, i.e. living through not winning games because the team is young and developing, is not tanking.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#35 » by goin2work04 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:45 am

DetroitPistons wrote:
goin2work04 wrote:
You really want to build an expensive wrong side of 30 team that won't win anything of significance don't you?


Not necessarily. I've stated many times I'm open to rebuilding and trading Griffin to do that. It's just that I am also open to trying to bring in win now players if that is the path our organization decides to go. The problem is that every time I, or any other poster, even suggests trading for a win now piece the militant vitriolic doom and gloom crowd comes out of the wood works, ridicules anyone they disagree with, and then suggests stupid trades where we dump Griffin or Drummond for a bag of chips.


Expiring contract. Young player with potential. First round pick. That is pretty standard. I wouldn't call that a bag of chips for Griffin. A Godfather Paul George like deal is unlikely.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#36 » by Pharaoh » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:59 am

DetroitPistons wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:Rebuild/retool is the same thing.

DeRozan opt out, Lowry & Ibaka expiring at the same time, JV was expiring...

That's why going for it with Kawhi didn't matter!

If he plays 10 games they rebuild/retool.

If he plays well and stays that's cool - you stay the course.

If he plays well and leaves? They'll rebuild/retool while trying to stay a "competitive" team.

Traditionally they've been a 50 win team that falls in the playoffs. Ain't nothing wrong with that

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Bruh retooling and rebuilding are definitely not the same thing. Retooling is when you make a some moves to change things up while still keeping a core together and trying to win. Rebuilding is when you trade your aging players for picks, tank, and try to develop young players and future draft picks. For example, OKC right now is rebuilding. HOU right now is retooling by swapping Paul for Westbrook.
So you're gonna argue semantics?

Raps will rebuild after this season. That was the plan all along regardless of Kawhi.

IF you're gonna advocate for DeRozan then at least say: & if it doesn't move the needle we can let Dre & him walk & tank

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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#37 » by DetroitPistons » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:38 am

Pharaoh wrote:
DetroitPistons wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:Rebuild/retool is the same thing.

DeRozan opt out, Lowry & Ibaka expiring at the same time, JV was expiring...

That's why going for it with Kawhi didn't matter!

If he plays 10 games they rebuild/retool.

If he plays well and stays that's cool - you stay the course.

If he plays well and leaves? They'll rebuild/retool while trying to stay a "competitive" team.

Traditionally they've been a 50 win team that falls in the playoffs. Ain't nothing wrong with that

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Bruh retooling and rebuilding are definitely not the same thing. Retooling is when you make a some moves to change things up while still keeping a core together and trying to win. Rebuilding is when you trade your aging players for picks, tank, and try to develop young players and future draft picks. For example, OKC right now is rebuilding. HOU right now is retooling by swapping Paul for Westbrook.
So you're gonna argue semantics?

Raps will rebuild after this season. That was the plan all along regardless of Kawhi.

IF you're gonna advocate for DeRozan then at least say: & if it doesn't move the needle we can let Dre & him walk & tank

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I don't think that is arguing semantics. The vast majority of realGM knows the difference between rebuilding and retooling. They are pretty specific terms. If you don't believe me go start a poll on the general board.

Your last sentence shows that you aren't familiar with my stance which I've stated quite a bit throughout free agency, which is fine. I'm not going to knock you for not reading all of my posts lol. But anyway, I've always said I am okay rebuilding if we decide to go that route. I just also see the side that wants to maximize Griffin and see if we can put something good together to win now. If it didn't workout with DeRozan I would gladly say we can trade Drummond if that is the best option going forward.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#38 » by Pharaoh » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:16 am

I've been gone a long time so I'm not up on what is and isn't the accepted term for rebuilding (retooling?) on the fly.

If you think DeRozan moves the needle enough then that's your opinion man. I don't

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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#39 » by dVs33 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:00 pm

If we have good success?? Haha
Casey and derozen may love each other but they have nothing to show for it. And our bigs are an awful fit for him. Move Drummond and we might be good but that seems like the opposite to what our ownership wants
DetroitPistons wrote:
Snakebites wrote:Yeah we’re not going to keep him, he’s a rental.

Dubious fit with the bigs too. I think I’d like it if a big was being shipped out somehow. Depends of course on the particulars of the trade though.


Casey and DeRozan love each other and if we have good success with him I think we would have a very strong chance of keeping him. I don't see how anyone can just assume he is a rental.


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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#40 » by Manocad » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:51 pm

Pharaoh wrote:I've been gone a long time so I'm not up on what is and isn't the accepted term for rebuilding (retooling?) on the fly.

If you think DeRozan moves the needle enough then that's your opinion man. I don't

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No one is debating retooling vs rebuilding as though they’re two completely different strategies; that’s baloney. People talk in terms of “draft this guy, trade for that guy, etc.” I’ve never seen a single discussion where one person argued “We need to rebuild because X, Y, Z” and another person said, “I disagree; we need to retool because A, B and C.”

Derozan doesn’t move the needle much and there was PLENTY of talk about Toronto wanting to move him (“Is he really the future?” type of stuff) well before Kawhi ever factored into things.

Arguing “You should always try to make the team better” sounds great on paper, but we know what always trying to make every single move you think may improve the team little by little by little leads to—treadmill. A team that maybe has a bunch of talented players but probably is less than the sum of their parts due to not having played together much, is overpriced, has a lack of depth, and underachieves relative to its cost. And then, Just like this current Pistons team, you eventually run out of ways to improve the team further.
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